Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 8/25/2004 2:43:03 PM EST
Why did it go straight from A2 to A4? Did the military just do this to avoid conflict with the civilian AR nomenclature (A2=plain vanilla, A3=carry handle) because the new M16 has forearm rails in addition to a flattop?

just idle curiousity...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:07:42 PM EST
i thought there was a difference in A3 and A4 such as both are flat tops but one has full auto while the other has a three round burst but i could be wrong and probly am

Jesse
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:08:18 PM EST
They did not. The A3 is like an A2 but has safe semi and auto instead of 3rnd burst.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:18:24 PM EST
Ok, thanks.

Was the A3 ever issued for combat, like maybe to SOCOM units or guys like that? or was it just suggested, tested and never issued at all?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:19:20 PM EST
True story: The M-16A3s we have at my base are A2 uppers on A1 lowers. I personally fired one that was marked M16A1 on the lower, but it had A2 Furniture and sights. U.S. Navy issue frankengun, I guess.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:39:21 PM EST
The only time I ever saw M16A3's was in the hands of the Marine Corps Team shooters at the Wilson Matches in 1997. I have no clue where they got 'em.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:57:11 PM EST
Never seen one before...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:23:21 PM EST
To add confusion, the M4s with the full auto instead of burst are M4A1s.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:30:05 PM EST
I had a buddy who was an Army Engineer - he said they were issued A3s on occasion. Guess they figured engineers would be too busy building bridges and wouldn't have time to aim, so the full auto would come in useful
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:50:47 PM EST
When I was in Okinawa, I did some rifle instruction with the Seabees and they all had brand new M16A3's. I wish I could have traded them my typical Marine Corps infantry issue M16A2 with most of the blueing gone off the barrel. Considering they will most likely never see combat, and most of them could care less about marksmanship. Some of these Seabees tried to tell me how to shoot a rifle properly. Apparently Marines do not know how to shoot correctly, and the Navy is the authority on rifle shooting.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:22:49 PM EST
When our battallion got rid of our m16 A2s they were replaced with the flat top rifles which the battalion catogorized as A3 if it was flatop with A2 handguards and A4 if it was flat top with the RAS. All of them were semi or 3 rd burst. Wish I could remeber what was on the side of the lower though.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:23:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By unrgop:
When I was in Okinawa, I did some rifle instruction with the Seabees and they all had brand new M16A3's. I wish I could have traded them my typical Marine Corps infantry issue M16A2 with most of the blueing gone off the barrel. Considering they will most likely never see combat, and most of them could care less about marksmanship. Some of these Seabees tried to tell me how to shoot a rifle properly. Apparently Marines do not know how to shoot correctly, and the Navy is the authority on rifle shooting.




Did you grin and bear it (whilst laughing on the inside), or get all ooh-rah on 'em?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:33:12 PM EST
There was no point at yelling at them because they may have started crying. I figured if they got shot sometime in the future because of their poor shooting, I would have just told them that they should have listened to me when they had the chance. I was a rifle instructor for a reason, not just because I was a Marine, but because of my time spent on two shooting teams and being one of the head instructors for my Battalion. 3rd Battalion 8th Marines. For those Seabees that did not want any help, I just ignored them and their BS and just helped those that wanted it. It was not my job to lay down the law on them. They had a Master Sergeant as their cadre. He was basically their babysitter and made sure they did not hurt themselves when they had live ammo.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:24:23 PM EST
Yep. Nothing like a Senior NCO to provide a brain.

That way their hearts could beat, etc.

Marines and USAF SP's guarded our base in Kuwait. I slept very well knowing they were there.

It wasn't until my last base shooting plastic projectiles that I saw anything but A1 configured rifles. Didn't seem to matter to me. I was no sniper, tho. Scored 29/40 and 32/40. Fine by me - my job was to be the dead hand on a 2000lb bomb, not to pick off incomming enemies.

Situation like that? All I was supposed to do was load the jets as fast as possible and get them in the air. Assuming I lived I was to disperse munitions then hide.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:27:58 PM EST
Does Colt follow these designations for riles not sold to the US Military? I've seen M16A2's with "auto" instead of "burst".

Thanks

Frontsight
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:53:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:
True story: The M-16A3s we have at my base are A2 uppers on A1 lowers. I personally fired one that was marked M16A1 on the lower, but it had A2 Furniture and sights. U.S. Navy issue frankengun, I guess. hr



There are a lot of oddball rifles floating around.

I used to be in an Army Guard unit that had a couple of XM16E1s which had been rebuilt to 'A1 standard, and an M16 that had also been rebuilt as an 'A1, complete with "A1" added to the factory markings with individual stamps. We finally turned them in for 'A2s around 1999 or 2000, and many of the 'A2s we received had rebuilt 'A1 lowers, with the original markings milled off and "M16A2" and "BURST" stamped in the spot where the old marks had been.

The military stopped buying 'A1 furniture many years ago, and by the early '90s the last of the stockpiled furniture had been used, so 'A2 furniture started being used on 'A1s and Diemaco C7 uppers were used on 'A1s that needed the upper replaced.

The cheap taxpayer part of me was pleased, but the soldier who'd read his history books and remembered all our previous "shortage of small arms in times of war" problems wasn't very happy with the decision to rebuild the 'A1s instead of putting them in storage and buying new 'A3s and 'A3s... Guess I should have just been grateful they weren't all sent to Captain Crunch along with all our M14s, this being the Clinton days.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:59:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheLastBoyScout:
Ok, thanks.

Was the A3 ever issued for combat, like maybe to SOCOM units or guys like that? or was it just suggested, tested and never issued at all?




The M16A3 is a Navy (and Air Force?) rifle. As far as I know the Army and Marine Corps have never issued any; the 'A3 is not even listed in the Army TMs for the M16-series rifles.

I'd have preferred an 'A3 or just a decent semiautomatic trigger group to the M16A2s I've carried. The burst trigger group gives a horrible varying trigger weight in semiautomatic.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:00:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By AGC:
The M16A3 is a Navy (and Air Force?) rifle. As far as I know the Army and Marine Corps have never issued any; the 'A3 is not even listed in the Army TMs for the M16-series rifles.



Try the latest copies of:

TM 9-1005-319-23&P: Unit and Direct Support Maintenance Manual for M16A2, M16A3, M16A4 Rifles and M4/M4A1 Carbines

TM 9-1005-319-10: Operator’s Manual for M16A2, M16A3, M16A4 Rifles, and M4/M4A1 Carbines
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:25:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 12:31:17 AM EST by Combat_Diver]

Originally Posted By AGC:

The M16A3 is a Navy (and Air Force?) rifle. As far as I know the Army and Marine Corps have never issued any; the 'A3 is not even listed in the Army TMs for the M16-series rifles.




Also FM 3.22.9 Rifle Marksmanship M16A1, M16A2/3, M16A4 and M4 Carbine ; dated Apr 03


by unrgop

When I was in Okinawa, I did some rifle instruction with the Seabees and they all had brand new M16A3's.



That same Seabee Bn from Okie is here now in Iraq (300m from me) and they still have the M16A3.


I used to be in an Army Guard unit that had a couple of XM16E1s which had been rebuilt to 'A1 standard


The X is for Experimental and E is for Experimental Alteration, Hence XM16E1 was the prototype test rifle before it was adopted as the M16A1. My first rifle in Group was such til we turned them in for A2s.


Does Colt follow these designations for riles not sold to the US Military? I've seen M16A2's with "auto" instead of "burst".

Thanks

Frontsight



Don't believe so. When the services adopted the A2 in the 80s, they sold A2s with full auto to the Jordanians.

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:42:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrKasab:
When our battallion got rid of our m16 A2s they were replaced with the flat top rifles which the battalion catogorized as A3 if it was flatop with A2 handguards and A4 if it was flat top with the RAS. All of them were semi or 3 rd burst. Wish I could remeber what was on the side of the lower though.



The RAS is a modification to the base rifle - and has NOTHING to do with it's nomenclature. It is part of the Modular Weapons System (MWS).
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:48:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 3:51:48 AM EST by DM1975]

The M16A3 is a Navy (and Air Force?) rifle. As far as I know the Army and Marine Corps have never issued any; the 'A3 is not even listed in the Army TMs for the M16-series rifles.



The M16A3 IS listed in the -10 for the Army and it is the full auto equivelant of the M16A2. And the A4 is basicly an M16A2 flat top. That is the simplest way to explain it...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:07:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 6:10:23 AM EST by AGC]

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Originally Posted By AGC:

The M16A3 is a Navy (and Air Force?) rifle. As far as I know the Army and Marine Corps have never issued any; the 'A3 is not even listed in the Army TMs for the M16-series rifles.




Also FM 3.22.9 Rifle Marksmanship M16A1, M16A2/3, M16A4 and M4 Carbine ; dated Apr 03





My references are clearly out of date. I've still got FM 23-9 as the latest Rifle Marksmanship FM. Can't find my -23&P, but I was pretty sure it only listed the 'A2 and 'A4; probably was thinking of the '95 or so version and misremembering looking up 'A4 uppers when I was actually looking at M4 uppers... Been a couple of years since I escaped from the arms room and training slots.




I used to be in an Army Guard unit that had a couple of XM16E1s which had been rebuilt to 'A1 standard


The X is for Experimental and E is for Experimental Alteration, Hence XM16E1 was the prototype test rifle before it was adopted as the M16A1. My first rifle in Group was such til we turned them in for A2s.




There were some differences between the XM16E1 and the M16A1. My rifle in basic was an XM16E1 with 3-prong flash suppressor and non-chrome bore. I think they had the chrome-plated bolts and carriers as well? My BT rifle had had those replaced somewhere along the way in that case. The one I had in my arms room had been through an Anniston rebuild sometime around '76 or '77, and had a 'A1 bolt group, barrel, flash suppressor and stock. The markings were the only real "XM16E1" features left.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:36:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By unrgop:
Apparently Marines do not know how to shoot correctly, and the Navy is the authority on rifle shooting.



I thought the Chair Force was the authority on marksmanship.....
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:54:39 AM EST
Damn. All this is confusing. We need some solid, up-to-date photos of the real thing, markings and all.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:58:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:47:14 PM EST
Got one carbine here that is marked M16A2 (Colt) with safe-semi-auto. Standard M4 profile barrel, early small carbine forearm, M16A2 upper (sights marked 8/3), two postition collapsable stock. Finish is well worn but not shiny. Gun is also lighter than standard M4A1s. So any thing is possible and not absolute.

CD
Top Top