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Posted: 7/23/2013 8:07:34 AM EST
I just have to find out why the 14.5" barrels are so popular. As I understand the U.S. military went to the 14.5" so they could still mount a bayonet. To avoid ATF problems most guys seem to be putting on a flash hider to bring it up to 16" length to avoid having to pay the $200 SBR tax. Again as I understand the terminal ballistics, 75-77 grain bullets are necessary as a 1/7 barrel. As for ballistics shorter doesn't seem to make sense. I'm not hacking on anyone just curious as most of us aren't jumping out of planes or doing a lock out from a submarine.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:30:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 8:30:49 AM EST by schaz42]
I just have to find out why the 14.5" barrels are so popular. As I understand the U.S. military went to the 14.5" so they could still mount a bayonet. To avoid ATF problems most guys seem to be putting on a flash hider to bring it up to 16" length to avoid having to pay the $200 SBR tax. Again as I understand the terminal ballistics, 75-77 grain bullets are necessary as a 1/7 barrel. As for ballistics shorter doesn't seem to make sense. I'm not hacking on anyone just curious as most of us aren't jumping out of planes or doing a lock out from a submarine.

Why were the 20" barrels so popular before the 14.5-16"? Because that's the market, most manufacturers went the 16" route as its whats on TV and made money, and I for one wanted what I carried around for 9+ years. The 14.5" barrel though I'm not sure is as popular as you think, I have one on my Block II because its "correct" but I've yet to see any at a range with anything shorter that 16". Most of the shooters that I know don't have the tools let alone and knowledge of how to pull a barrel, then solder/weld the FH on to make it legal. Most seem to not care at all really. The 14.5" while popular in here, is not so much outside.

Now for the bayonet, I think that was more of an after thought. Starting with the Colt 607 and then on to the XM177 series, these all utilized the shorter handguards and the gas port FSB location, years before it was lengthened from 10-11.5" to the now standard 14.5" to allow use of a bayonet. And terminal ballistics are next to null when talking 14.5 vs 16, now my 10.3" Mk18, there you would have an argument.

And how do you know we all aren't jumping out of airplanes and doing lockouts?

Bond. James Bond.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:34:38 AM EST
14.5 and carbine gas system works.

plus the OAL while marginally shorter, does make a difference in "feel', this is entirely subjective though.

I love a good 14.5


the mutt by The Dorsal Fin, on Flickr
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:35:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 8:37:52 AM EST by thornejc]
The ~60fps that I lose going from a 16" to a 14.5" is not worth as much to me as that extra 1.3-1.5" of compactness. I do not use comps or brakes so I buy a muzzle device and stick with it. If I want to change it, it is not that expensive to do here locally, but I have never had that issue. If you are someone who will change your rifle around several times before you find a configuration that you want to stick with, I would definitely not get a 14.5". You are the only one who know what your preferences are. As far as performance, there isn't really much of a difference.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:44:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
Again as I understand the terminal ballistics, 75-77 grain bullets are necessary as a 1/7 barrel.
View Quote


What are you trying to say here?

75-77 grain bullets are not necessary for most types of shooting, nor is a 1:7 twist barrel. For plinking, self-defense, and match shooting, there are plenty of other bullets that will work well.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:48:03 AM EST
14.5" barrels are popular because that is what the military uses (M4). The only reason the 16" barrels are the most prevalent, is because they avoid any legal issue with the ATF. Now that more manufacturers offer 14.5" barrels with pinned muzzle attachmennts to bring the length to at least 16", people are jumping on them. The loss in velocity is negligable for what a carbine is used for. What you gain in handiness due to the shorter length and lower weight outweighs the small loss in velocity.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:50:24 AM EST
I poo-pooed 14.5" rifles forever while went through ownership of more than a few 20" 18" and 16" uppers over the years. Too short to be accurate, loss of velocity, blah blah blah...

Then I put together a light weight KISS style 14.5" with a Spikes Dynacomp and it has easily become my favorite rifle. I still have a 20" Scoped upper for reaching out and touching but for 200 yd and in there is no reason for a longer or heavier rifle in my opinion. I wish I knew this years ago, I could have saved a boat load of money buying and selling perfectly good parts.

/YMMV
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:50:31 AM EST
It's a tool, you use the appropriate one for the job.

I helped a friend put together the right AR for him, he is a police officer on the narcotics team so he does a lot of search warrants. He needs to clear houses and can't have an SBR so we built a 14.5"pinned light weight barrel and with a T1 and a light the whole rifle weighs 7lbs 3oz perfect for him.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:51:25 AM EST
The 14.5" vs 16" barrel (assuming same gas system, muzzle device and barrel contour) in my opinion, handles better, feels lighter and if built correctly is a nice balance with the carbine stock system.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:18:52 AM EST
Your post almost reads like you are questioning why we need weapons of war? I guess since we Aren't jumping out of planes all we really need are 10/22s or a double barreled shotgun.

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:19:25 AM EST
I'm going to basically reiterate what's been said here.

14.5" with a carbine length gas system works very well, handles slightly better, and weighs slightly less than a 16" mid. Courses for horses. My gtg is a 14.5" carbine with a lightweight barrel, pinned A2, and a 12" MI SS G2
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:20:03 AM EST
Like others have said, shorter, lighter, and works just as good as a 16".
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:50:03 AM EST
Eugene Stoner designed the M16 Rifle to use a dwell time of 7 inches; so happens that the M4 Carbine has 7 inches of dwell time.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 11:16:50 AM EST
it just feels right i think.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 11:47:08 AM EST
Shortest possible legal length without a stamp. That's why I have one but I also have a stamp on the way...
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 11:51:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:00:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I like my 10.3" the best. That being said the 14.5 does everything I need it to do.
View Quote


Should have a 10.3 by Oct/Nov
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:30:01 PM EST
I'll repeat this isn't to hack on anyone, I was just curious as to the attraction for 14.5" barrels. Intellectually I see a couple of oddities to the choice. (1) if you go with a straight 14.5" barrel then you have to spent and extra $200 tax to the ATF, (2) if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle. As one responded said the 1.5" shorter barrel only cost about 60 fps. If someone goes the SBR route without the ATF route and God forbid gets in a legal shooting they will still be facing two federal felonies. Conviction of this means all your guns are gone, thousands of dollars defending themselves, and upon conviction the lose of the 2nd Amendment Rights.

I was a SWAT cop for a major police department and after a Hollywood movie I saw some of the cops cutting the barrels off their shotguns to 14" a clear federal firearms violation. With the pistol grip, horrible recoil, lack of hit ability, a couple of split lips (I thought this was hilarious) and lack of penetration, the barrels were replace to 18" and stocks replaced. All of this was done without benefit of completion of the necessary ATF which is free to police departments. Had they used them in a shoot out, they would have been charged with two federal felonies, one of manufacturing and the other possession of a saw off shot gun.

As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.

This isn't the only time I probably put my foot in my mouth. As a FNG Marine grunt, I, while cleaning my 16E1, I said. to my squad I heard the M-16 couldn't kill anyone. Cards stopped mid air, the radio quit playing and 10 heads turned my way. Asking where I heard this I said I read it. "Oh, at least we know he can read bull$shit. They told me the 3000 NVA they killed on the last operation must have been faking death. 12 days later I learned for myself not to believe everything I read. The rifles we used were m16E1's with m193 55 grain ball.

I didn't set out to insult anyone but to understand the attraction to this barrel length. Most of my AR's have 20 barrels for CMP matches fired out to 1000 yds, while one 16" barreled rifle is used for 3 gun competition and the other my coyote/jackrabbit rifle. I apologize if I ruffled any feather, so please forgive me.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:39:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AR-4C:
Eugene Stoner designed the M16 Rifle to use a dwell time of 7 inches; so happens that the M4 Carbine has 7 inches of dwell time.
View Quote
Nailed it. I now have two uppers that are 14.5
pinned and welded, and use the 16" that came with it as a paperweight now.

One Colt SOCOM barrel A2 comped, and one Bushmaster 14.5 comped with a Battlecomp 1.5
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:39:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GAZ32:
Like others have said, shorter, lighter, and works just as good as a 16".
View Quote


This. And WAY superior flash suppression if you go with something like a Smith Vortex to bring the 14.5 to 16.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:39:58 PM EST
I see it as trying to re-create the current issue rifle that can be civilian owned.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:46:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle.
View Quote

When you attach a muzzle device to a 16" barrel, you wind up with 17.5". The 14.5" barrel is still 1.5" shorter.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:47:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 12:48:05 PM EST by GSL]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
I'll repeat this isn't to hack on anyone, I was just curious as to the attraction for 14.5" barrels. Intellectually I see a couple of oddities to the choice. (1) if you go with a straight 14.5" barrel then you have to spent and extra $200 tax to the ATF, (2) if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle. As one responded said the 1.5" shorter barrel only cost about 60 fps. If someone goes the SBR route without the ATF route and God forbid gets in a legal shooting they will still be facing two federal felonies. Conviction of this means all your guns are gone, thousands of dollars defending themselves, and upon conviction the lose of the 2nd Amendment Rights.

I was a SWAT cop for a major police department and after a Hollywood movie I saw some of the cops cutting the barrels off their shotguns to 14" a clear federal firearms violation. With the pistol grip, horrible recoil, lack of hit ability, a couple of split lips (I thought this was hilarious) and lack of penetration, the barrels were replace to 18" and stocks replaced. All of this was done without benefit of completion of the necessary ATF which is free to police departments. Had they used them in a shoot out, they would have been charged with two federal felonies, one of manufacturing and the other possession of a saw off shot gun.

As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.

This isn't the only time I probably put my foot in my mouth. As a FNG Marine grunt, I, while cleaning my 16E1, I said. to my squad I heard the M-16 couldn't kill anyone. Cards stopped mid air, the radio quit playing and 10 heads turned my way. Asking where I heard this I said I read it. "Oh, at least we know he can read bull$shit. They told me the 3000 NVA they killed on the last operation must have been faking death. 12 days later I learned for myself not to believe everything I read. The rifles we used were m16E1's with m193 55 grain ball.

I didn't set out to insult anyone but to understand the attraction to this barrel length. Most of my AR's have 20 barrels for CMP matches fired out to 1000 yds, while one 16" barreled rifle is used for 3 gun competition and the other my coyote/jackrabbit rifle. I apologize if I ruffled any feather, so please forgive me.
View Quote
The M16A1 had a rifling that suited the 55 grain M193 well. The switch came when the NATO and heavier round was adopted, which needed more twist to properly stabilize the M855. There's a pretty good reason why the services that once upon a time had both A1's and A2's in service at the same time went full retard to make sure the new M855 did not get fired from the A1, but the A2 could fire both.

1/7 is a better spin.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:55:54 PM EST
1/7 twist came about to stabilize the (longer than M855) M856 tracer round.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 1:02:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 1:03:51 PM EST by Spent_Casing]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GSL:
The M16A1 had a rifling that suited the 55 grain M193 well. The switch came when the NATO and heavier round was adopted, which needed more twist to properly stabilize the M855. There's a pretty good reason why the services that once upon a time had both A1's and A2's in service at the same time went full retard to make sure the new M855 did not get fired from the A1, but the A2 could fire both.

1/7 is a better spin.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
I'll repeat this isn't to hack on anyone, I was just curious as to the attraction for 14.5" barrels. Intellectually I see a couple of oddities to the choice. (1) if you go with a straight 14.5" barrel then you have to spent and extra $200 tax to the ATF, (2) if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle. As one responded said the 1.5" shorter barrel only cost about 60 fps. If someone goes the SBR route without the ATF route and God forbid gets in a legal shooting they will still be facing two federal felonies. Conviction of this means all your guns are gone, thousands of dollars defending themselves, and upon conviction the lose of the 2nd Amendment Rights.

I was a SWAT cop for a major police department and after a Hollywood movie I saw some of the cops cutting the barrels off their shotguns to 14" a clear federal firearms violation. With the pistol grip, horrible recoil, lack of hit ability, a couple of split lips (I thought this was hilarious) and lack of penetration, the barrels were replace to 18" and stocks replaced. All of this was done without benefit of completion of the necessary ATF which is free to police departments. Had they used them in a shoot out, they would have been charged with two federal felonies, one of manufacturing and the other possession of a saw off shot gun.

As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.

This isn't the only time I probably put my foot in my mouth. As a FNG Marine grunt, I, while cleaning my 16E1, I said. to my squad I heard the M-16 couldn't kill anyone. Cards stopped mid air, the radio quit playing and 10 heads turned my way. Asking where I heard this I said I read it. "Oh, at least we know he can read bull$shit. They told me the 3000 NVA they killed on the last operation must have been faking death. 12 days later I learned for myself not to believe everything I read. The rifles we used were m16E1's with m193 55 grain ball.

I didn't set out to insult anyone but to understand the attraction to this barrel length. Most of my AR's have 20 barrels for CMP matches fired out to 1000 yds, while one 16" barreled rifle is used for 3 gun competition and the other my coyote/jackrabbit rifle. I apologize if I ruffled any feather, so please forgive me.
The M16A1 had a rifling that suited the 55 grain M193 well. The switch came when the NATO and heavier round was adopted, which needed more twist to properly stabilize the M855. There's a pretty good reason why the services that once upon a time had both A1's and A2's in service at the same time went full retard to make sure the new M855 did not get fired from the A1, but the A2 could fire both.

1/7 is a better spin.

Actually the longer tracer rounds had more to do with it than the Belgian SS109.

ETA: familyman beat me to it whilst typing/reading
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 1:05:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:


As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.
View Quote


You generally don't see 77 grain ammo used in A4s.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 1:43:46 PM EST
Unless I missed it, I don't believe anybody mentioned aesthetics yet. IMHO, a pinned 14.5" barrel looks more natural and balanced than a 16" barrel with a muzzle device. I built a rimfire upper with a CMMG barrel last year, and the way the barrel is designed, the barrel itself extends in to a upper receiver, thus making it appear shorter on the outside. When I get back from this deployment my uppers will be going out to be cut/threaded pin/welded.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 2:38:57 PM EST
I think the 14.7"/14.7" barrels handle better....and look better than a 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:34:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 3:35:56 PM EST by danpass]
I have a 20 because competition rules require it.

The shortest I could go while avoiding a tax stamp (and avoiding those stupid 5" fake suppressors) was 14.5 plus a comp/FH.


I have NEVER seen the utility of a 16 (plus comp/FH) especially when the 14.5 option exists. There's just something about 14.5 that makes it MUCH better handling than a 16. You'd have to handle it to understand.

And with a 14" rail it looks awesome

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:37:45 PM EST
14.5 with a pinned and welded flash hider gives me the shortest gun possible with good performance, and imo is a jack of all trades length.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:54:28 PM EST
My ARs are for 0-200 yards.

The longer the distance, the lower the probability it will ever be used to shoot that far (by me) for defensive purposes.

14.5 (pinned to 16) is the smallest, non-sbr package that provides solid performance for that criteria.

Light, handy, accurate.

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:35:11 PM EST
Trends come and go.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:53:01 PM EST
I may not be "bailing out of a plane", BUT, I have bailed out of a Patrol car several times. The 1.5" difference is a LOT when you are trying to get out in a hurry without hanging up on mic cords, seat belts, radar power cords, etc.

I LOVE my 14.5 with the permanently attached flash suppressor
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:54:23 PM EST
They handle really nice, are usually lighter weight and look "right", especially with 12" rails.

I have a 14.7" midlength with std A2 flash hider and a 14.5" carbine with a phantom, out of my 4 these get played with the most.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:15:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
My ARs are for 0-200 yards.

The longer the distance, the lower the probability it will ever be used to shoot that far (by me) for defensive purposes.

14.5 (pinned to 16) is the smallest, non-sbr package that provides solid performance for that criteria.

Light, handy, accurate.

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/4042/54j7.jpg
View Quote
This came out really nice.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:37:04 PM EST
Got 2 ARs that are 14.5, one carbine length gas sys and the other is middy, both have battlecomps pinned. I am probably going to end up eventually getting another 14.5 AR. I like it because it is the true middle ground between a SBR and 20" rifle. It can go from cqb work to fairly far distance shooting with out missing a beat.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:40:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
14.5 and carbine gas system works.

plus the OAL while marginally shorter, does make a difference in "feel', this is entirely subjective though.

I love a good 14.5

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-dorsal-fin/9336587113/" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/9336587113_3ba295e26d_b.jpg</a>
the mutt by The Dorsal Fin, on Flickr
View Quote


+1
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:42:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 5:42:50 PM EST by Fooboy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
This came out really nice.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
My ARs are for 0-200 yards.

The longer the distance, the lower the probability it will ever be used to shoot that far (by me) for defensive purposes.

14.5 (pinned to 16) is the smallest, non-sbr package that provides solid performance for that criteria.

Light, handy, accurate.

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/4042/54j7.jpg
This came out really nice.


thanks I see your stick in all the same pic threads - fan of yours as well.

Us pinned 14.5 guys seem to gravitate towards the Troy alphas.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:56:24 PM EST
Because it's lightweight and maneuverable?
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 6:01:06 PM EST
This may be a bit off topic but I want to build a 14.5 and Im wondering if you guys can tell me the pros and cons of running a 14.5 mid length barrel vs. a 14.5 carbine barrel? This is my first build and really want to avoid buying the wrong set up. Thanks in advance as this is also my first post.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:21:04 PM EST
I'm not hacking on anyone just curious as most of us aren't jumping out of planes or doing a lock out from a submarine.
View Quote
Of course not, that requires a 10.3" MK18!

I really dig the handiness, light weight, and smooth recoil impulse of my 14.5" middy, but I have multiple ARs. Would probably choose a 16" middy for just one AR for max flexibility.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:54:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 9:31:26 PM EST by bfoosh06]
IMHO....

14.5' is a very compact lightweight easily handled CARBINE. Carbines have been popular for decades in the service and out of it. They are "good enough" to do the job with the service and on the ranch.

The 20" is the rifle , remember the original 20" barrel was considered short for a service rifle, with an OAL of 39.5".... Prior to that the M14 was about 44 1/3 inches with a 22" barrel and flash suppressor... and the M1 Garand was 43.5" with a 24" barrel / no suppressor.

" is a lightweight, easy to use semi-automatic carbine that became a standard firearm for the U.S. military"......"and has also been a popular civilian firearm."....

Guess what firearm those quotes are talking about ?.... The WWII M1 Carbine.


I don't have to Jump out of a plane to appreciate a Carbine.

And as for the ballistics of the 5.56x45... well ,barrel length isn't the same as bullet construction. The Commies made a 16" barrel work for decades....Frankly the ballistics for the 5.56 is a complicated issue that has taken the US well over 40 years to reach this "pinnacle" of design.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:15:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GSL:
The M16A1 had a rifling that suited the 55 grain M193 well. The switch came when the NATO and heavier round was adopted, which needed more twist to properly stabilize the M855. There's a pretty good reason why the services that once upon a time had both A1's and A2's in service at the same time went full retard to make sure the new M855 did not get fired from the A1, but the A2 could fire both.

1/7 is a better spin.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
I'll repeat this isn't to hack on anyone, I was just curious as to the attraction for 14.5" barrels. Intellectually I see a couple of oddities to the choice. (1) if you go with a straight 14.5" barrel then you have to spent and extra $200 tax to the ATF, (2) if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle. As one responded said the 1.5" shorter barrel only cost about 60 fps. If someone goes the SBR route without the ATF route and God forbid gets in a legal shooting they will still be facing two federal felonies. Conviction of this means all your guns are gone, thousands of dollars defending themselves, and upon conviction the lose of the 2nd Amendment Rights.

I was a SWAT cop for a major police department and after a Hollywood movie I saw some of the cops cutting the barrels off their shotguns to 14" a clear federal firearms violation. With the pistol grip, horrible recoil, lack of hit ability, a couple of split lips (I thought this was hilarious) and lack of penetration, the barrels were replace to 18" and stocks replaced. All of this was done without benefit of completion of the necessary ATF which is free to police departments. Had they used them in a shoot out, they would have been charged with two federal felonies, one of manufacturing and the other possession of a saw off shot gun.

As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.

This isn't the only time I probably put my foot in my mouth. As a FNG Marine grunt, I, while cleaning my 16E1, I said. to my squad I heard the M-16 couldn't kill anyone. Cards stopped mid air, the radio quit playing and 10 heads turned my way. Asking where I heard this I said I read it. "Oh, at least we know he can read bull$shit. They told me the 3000 NVA they killed on the last operation must have been faking death. 12 days later I learned for myself not to believe everything I read. The rifles we used were m16E1's with m193 55 grain ball.

I didn't set out to insult anyone but to understand the attraction to this barrel length. Most of my AR's have 20 barrels for CMP matches fired out to 1000 yds, while one 16" barreled rifle is used for 3 gun competition and the other my coyote/jackrabbit rifle. I apologize if I ruffled any feather, so please forgive me.
The M16A1 had a rifling that suited the 55 grain M193 well. The switch came when the NATO and heavier round was adopted, which needed more twist to properly stabilize the M855. There's a pretty good reason why the services that once upon a time had both A1's and A2's in service at the same time went full retard to make sure the new M855 did not get fired from the A1, but the A2 could fire both.

1/7 is a better spin.


You're new here, I get that, but don't spout off like youre educating us especially when some of us can remember when Lt. Col Dave Lutz USMC retired presently of KAC was kind enough to describe in great detail the joint American/Canadian A2 upgrade program. He was the program officer representing the US and spelled out the how's and why's of the A2 changes. His name on the board is ColdBore and he is a wealth of knowledge when he shows up occasionally

-SS109 was designed because M193 wouldn't penetrate a steel helmet at 600m
- 1/7 twist was necessary to stabilize the new 62gr tracer round. It was not necessary or even ideal for the SS109
-SS109 rounds will not stabilize in 1/12 barrels and was only to be issued under "combat emergency"
-The HBAR was because studies found that most cases of bent barrels happened in front of the front sight base.


In my opinion 20in rifles have a place. The M16A4 was a good start. I recently built a rifle for a friend with a 20in 1/7 LW barrel. 15in MI SS gen2, DD BUIS front and rear and an acog. A1 stock and a Gieselle S3G. It's pretty much the perfect fucking rifle for Afghanistan. M4 weight with 20in performance. Right now its on a CavArms lower and its even lighter. pefectly balances at the mag well and shoots like a house afire.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 10:07:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 10:10:20 PM EST by bergunx]
Not trying to hijack the thread, but how long is the 14.5" barrel with a pinned USGI "A2" flash suppressor?

I've heard that its 16" long, but many will go with the extra 1/4" to be on the safe side by going with a 14.7" barrel or add one of those extended "A2" flash suppressors.

Link Posted: 7/24/2013 2:05:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By rksonex:
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
14.5 and carbine gas system works.

plus the OAL while marginally shorter, does make a difference in "feel', this is entirely subjective though.

I love a good 14.5

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-dorsal-fin/9336587113/" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/9336587113_3ba295e26d_b.jpg</a>
the mutt by The Dorsal Fin, on Flickr


+1
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5338/9216388975_469374fc3a_o.jpg


I like being in the VTAC club.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 2:48:09 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bergunx:
Not trying to hijack the thread, but how long is the 14.5" barrel with a pinned USGI "A2" flash suppressor?

I've heard that its 16" long, but many will go with the extra 1/4" to be on the safe side by going with a 14.7" barrel or add one of those extended "A2" flash suppressors.

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Too short!

That is the reason for the 14.7, but there are several muzzle devices that will push a 14.5" past 16".
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 4:57:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
I just have to find out why the 14.5" barrels are so popular. As I understand the U.S. military went to the 14.5" so they could still mount a bayonet. To avoid ATF problems most guys seem to be putting on a flash hider to bring it up to 16" length to avoid having to pay the $200 SBR tax. Again as I understand the terminal ballistics, 75-77 grain bullets are necessary as a 1/7 barrel. As for ballistics shorter doesn't seem to make sense. I'm not hacking on anyone just curious as most of us aren't jumping out of planes or doing a lock out from a submarine.
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Probably so an M4 clone can be made.
Gotta be like Mike.

And the carbine-gassed 16" is an odd-looking, out of proportion, civilian concoction, IMO.
Reminds me of a giant bee's stinger.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:12:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2013 5:13:49 AM EST by Knife_Sniper]
I want a carbine length 14.5, and I had a 16 inch mid-length, but so far the 20 inch rifle has been most pleasant to shoot.

Low muzzle climb, low concussion, and I can use 55 grain m193 stuff and it will fragment just like it did "in the good old days".

I really dig the advantages of the rifle length setup.

Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:41:38 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
My ARs are for 0-200 yards.

The longer the distance, the lower the probability it will ever be used to shoot that far (by me) for defensive purposes.

14.5 (pinned to 16) is the smallest, non-sbr package that provides solid performance for that criteria.

Light, handy, accurate.
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This. Same for me. I was going to go with a 16" before I found the 14.5", then I found a 14.5" with a pencil barrel and jumped on it.
Mine is NOT a long range gun. Realistically, it's more likely I'd use it <50 yards so I don't need a long heavy barrel.

That's my .02, what works for me will not work for everyone. Look at what YOU need and build your rifle to those specs.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:45:20 AM EST
Because"
1. it's the shortest barrel I can have without a tax stamp (when pinned)
2. having the same barrel as the M4A1 completes my clone build
3. because it serves me well out to 500 yards; even with reduced AR500 steel targets and IMI M855



Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:47:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HackSawTom:
I'll repeat this isn't to hack on anyone, I was just curious as to the attraction for 14.5" barrels. Intellectually I see a couple of oddities to the choice. (1) if you go with a straight 14.5" barrel then you have to spent and extra $200 tax to the ATF, (2) if you permanently attach a muzzle device, then you wind up with a 16" which was probably came on the rifle. As one responded said the 1.5" shorter barrel only cost about 60 fps. If someone goes the SBR route without the ATF route and God forbid gets in a legal shooting they will still be facing two federal felonies. Conviction of this means all your guns are gone, thousands of dollars defending themselves, and upon conviction the lose of the 2nd Amendment Rights.

I was a SWAT cop for a major police department and after a Hollywood movie I saw some of the cops cutting the barrels off their shotguns to 14" a clear federal firearms violation. With the pistol grip, horrible recoil, lack of hit ability, a couple of split lips (I thought this was hilarious) and lack of penetration, the barrels were replace to 18" and stocks replaced. All of this was done without benefit of completion of the necessary ATF which is free to police departments. Had they used them in a shoot out, they would have been charged with two federal felonies, one of manufacturing and the other possession of a saw off shot gun.

As for 75-77 grain bullets in 1/7 these were validated in the book, "Triggermen". The author interviewed all branches of our great military, snipers all, and the common complain was the lack of "drop 'em in their tracks" with m855 ball when fired out of the M4. As soon as the went to the m16a4 and couple it with the 77 grain bullet they found little difference that round and the 7.62 up to 600 meters. The 75-77 is my go to bullet except for my 16" barrel coyote/jackrabbit rifle.

This isn't the only time I probably put my foot in my mouth. As a FNG Marine grunt, I, while cleaning my 16E1, I said. to my squad I heard the M-16 couldn't kill anyone. Cards stopped mid air, the radio quit playing and 10 heads turned my way. Asking where I heard this I said I read it. "Oh, at least we know he can read bull$shit. They told me the 3000 NVA they killed on the last operation must have been faking death. 12 days later I learned for myself not to believe everything I read. The rifles we used were m16E1's with m193 55 grain ball.

I didn't set out to insult anyone but to understand the attraction to this barrel length. Most of my AR's have 20 barrels for CMP matches fired out to 1000 yds, while one 16" barreled rifle is used for 3 gun competition and the other my coyote/jackrabbit rifle. I apologize if I ruffled any feather, so please forgive me.
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So because a bunch of idiot cops broke the law on their SHOTGUNS you think 14/5" barrels are dumb? And your screen name is Hacksaw?

14/5" barrels are usually made into 16"+ barrels by permanently attaching a muzzle device.
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