Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/15/2004 10:06:57 PM EST
I browse various forums, like this one, gunsnet, highroad etc...


I was over at gunsnet's AK forum, and I read through about 2 long threads that were pure AR bashing. I know it is an ongoing thing, like 9mm vs 45, Chevy vs Ford, Coke vs Pepsi...BUT,


I just don't understand the pure hate people have for the AR. Unlike all other preferences, usually people say so and so sucks or I prefer A over B. When it comes to the AR, there are long, over-exaggerated hate testimonies that just go on and on. Over here on AR15.com, sure there might be a little bashing of the AK, usually about the pros/cons, but a lot of people here own AK's and love them for what they are. AK people tend to just be vicious against the AR and fanatical about the AK. Less appreciation for both, lots of criticism for one and not the other.


All I hear is tons of unsubstantiated claims, bandwagoning, appeals to authority (famous military testimonies), Myths and other nonsense.



Aside from features, use, pros/cons -- why does the AR catch more hate than any other weapon? Is there something about it that marks it as the weapon of choice to criticize or attack?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:17:49 PM EST
they bash the AR cause they know, vut wont admit, its better than the AK

but i like both; i just like the AR a lot better

by the way: .45acp, chevy, coke
are the best
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:39:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 10:40:07 PM EST by Iceshark03]
I think it is mostly either a resistance to change or the connection to the early A1's from Vietnam. The only people I won't argue with are the ones who have personally had a bad experience with the rifle because I know that something similar might change my mind about a weapon system also.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:54:43 PM EST
Some people need validation, that's all. They'll grow up, some day.

<­BR>


Ok, they won't grow up, but it's a nice thought. I'm an AK owning fool, myself, but in my book, if bullets come out of it somewhere, there must be something to love.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:57:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:08:20 PM EST
I like my AK better but i love my AR too. I feel that they both have a purpose and they meet the needs that i place on them.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:35:09 PM EST
I think it follows that anything that achieves that kind of popularity becomes a target of ridicule by those who don't like to be on the bandwagon. Kinda like Mac guys hammering the windows OS.

The AR has so many configurations, caliber conversions and bells and whistles that can be added to the base platform to suit the users mood (or mission, for you operators out there!), that those AK, HK, SIG etc lovers tend to get jealous, IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:45:25 PM EST
Interesting, but most of the AR bashers don't give a damn about modding or accessories. It seems to be A] caliber sucks B] Gas system is terrible C] too tight aka can't take a handful of sand in it.


Those are the major gripes, but aside from those comments, the general hate for it is almost unmatched. Those that hate glocks don't compare to those that hate AR's.


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 12:13:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
Interesting, but most of the AR bashers don't give a damn about modding or accessories. It seems to be A] caliber sucks B] Gas system is terrible C] too tight aka can't take a handful of sand in it.


Those are the major gripes, but aside from those comments, the general hate for it is almost unmatched. Those that hate glocks don't compare to those that hate AR's.






Sure, thats what they say, those are all logical arguements. What they really mean is 'damn I wish I could get a 9mm conversion for this russki hunk o junk... or be able to shoot 1000 yard highpower with it, boo hoo!'
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 12:19:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 12:20:40 AM EST by PalmTree]

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:



I was over at gunsnet's AK forum, and I read through about 2 long threads that were pure AR bashing.



That was your error. Gunsnet is a ran by a pompous, dim witted ape. The people who post there are the sort who are either too stupid or too insecure to denounce the nonsense espoused by the board's host. Also remember that Gunsnet doesn't make significant amounts of money off of AR products or vendor advertising.

Not that I'm suggesting that AR15.com doesn't suffer some of the same liabilities (just go to one of the industry forums and you will see what I mean). But it isn't as rampant here.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 12:27:33 AM EST
I have both AK's and AR's, it's the 10/22 that I hate! Damn rotary magazines and cheap ammo.

<­BR>


j/k I gave mine to my cousin on her 16th birthday and havent replaced it yet.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 1:02:15 AM EST
Seems to me that all of the hate stems from lack of knowledge of the AR vs AK. Its easy to bash one over the other when you dont know any better.

BTW ALPHAGHOST, I noticed a typo on your reply, I think you meant, 45acp, FORD, coke are the best.h.gif
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:50:00 AM EST
I think it has to do with emotions. Just as you said its based on preference, which is "usually" based on emotion verses knowledge. People will get very heated when trying to substantiate their feelings.

I love the AR platform, I just dont like using the 5.56/223. All my other battle rifles are .30 cal so thats what I stick with. I will not bash the smaller round as I'm aware of what it will do inside of 250m ( I used to but thanks to this board I know better). My choice is based on my need to use the same cal in all my rifles. Some people are just Ignorant and you will never be able to change that.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:00:11 AM EST
I think they are just mad cause they can't afford an AR...I had to take out a second mortgage for mine hock.gif seriously though, I have a Romanian SAR-1 (AK) and an AR varient, love em both along with my SKS, Mosin Nagant, Ruger P89, etc..........The point is ALL firearms are great! Those who hate any are just Now I'm in the mood for work. Off to the airport!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:14:03 AM EST
I don't know what their reasoning is behind the bashing. I've owned a SAR1/AK and I own a AR. Each has it's pros and cons. The AK gets the edge in it's ability to take abuse, and perhaps a more effective caliber. The AR in it's accuracy, ergonomics and host of options and configurations. To each his own, but I'm not going to bash another mans choice. Either one will get you through the night.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:26:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:44:52 AM EST
I have a Vepr K in 7.62x39 and a 24" AR-15 that I built.

They both weigh the same, but the Vepr K is more solid and doesn't rattle when you shake it.
The AR-15 has: last rd BHO, nice mag eject setup, easy to reach charging handle, great accuracy
But the AR-15 also has: more expensive and flimsy mags, more expensive parts, a heck of a lot more expensive accessories, and requires a bit more work to maintain

the Vepr K lacks the ergonomics of the AR, but it has cheaper mags (polymer 30rd mags run $10-$11 ea brand spanking new and these are the good ones), cheaper parts, and cleaning it takes only a few seconds less than the AR15. Ammo is also cheaper and you get the best accuracy from Barnaul whereas AR15 owners have a fit when it comes to using lacquer coated steel cases in their chambers (I use XM193 in my AR15, the lacquer steel cases go into the Vepr).

The Vepr K so far has yielded 1.2-1.5 MOA at 100 yd using Barnaul, and the AR-15 has given me about 1-1.5 MOA at 100yd using XM193.

Each has its own pros and cons but the Vepr isn't a Romanian reject or some overpriced milled Bulgarian AK. It's a huge step up from the AK because it's an RPK with much better furniture (ergonomic, form fitting, etc...)
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:15:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:

Aside from features, use, pros/cons -- why does the AR catch more hate than any other weapon? Is there something about it that marks it as the weapon of choice to criticize or attack?




It's just a case of penis envy.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:19:37 AM EST
I don't understand all the hate, either. I've seen it pop up elsewhere.

This is just one man's opinion, but I think the AR15/M16 is an effective medium range weapon. If you want to hit something more than 200 yards away with a lot of "punch", buy a nice 7.62 bolt rifle, FAL, or whatever.

Scott
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:34:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 4:34:27 AM EST by FastEddie]
using one of your examples... do you ever notice how pepsi commercials always bash on coke but coke commercials don't even acknowledge pepsi's existance? it's like that. coke doesn't need to belittle themselves and stoop to pepsis level and so it is with the AR vs. AK thing. AR all the way.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:38:47 AM EST
I liked the AK-47 alot,but a semi auto AK-47 is about useless as tits on a bore hog.
I use the think the AK-47 was a great MBR, itleast untill I'd purchased a M4 clone.

TG

PS: no longer owned a AK-47 clone, since it proved to be unfit for attended use.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:05:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 5:06:04 AM EST by chewbacca]
It’s simply a case of ignorance and misguided dogma. For someone who is too dumb/lazy/pompous what ever...to do real research and find out the truth, it much easier to just buy into what ever anyone else says and accept that as fact. This problem is obviously going to be accentuated based on the fact that that is a non-AR forum; it is just gossip feeding gossip.

And it definitely has to do with penis envy.

If the AR is such an unreliable POS, why is it used by more military forces throughout the world, including ours for roughly 40 years...
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:12:59 AM EST

If the AR is such an unreliable POS, why is it used by more military forces throughout the world, including ours for roughly 40 years...


The AK is still being used and the design is fairly old. Just as there are lots of AR variants, the AK has gone through some changes over the years as well.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:13:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By chewbacca:

And it definitely has to do with penis envy.



Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:29:03 AM EST
my step father is like that. rags all day about the AR. He is retired Army, Viet Nam.
but when I take him to the range he smiles when I hand him the A2.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:48:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 5:49:13 AM EST by chewbacca]

Originally Posted By metroplex:

If the AR is such an unreliable POS, why is it used by more military forces throughout the world, including ours for roughly 40 years...


The AK is still being used and the design is fairly old. Just as there are lots of AR variants, the AK has gone through some changes over the years as well.



I am sorry, I should have specified...I meant PROFFESSIONAL military forces...

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:03:10 AM EST
All I hear is tons of unsubstantiated claims, bandwagoning, appeals to authority (famous military testimonies), Myths and other nonsense.

That answers most of your question, as you've already made an assessment.


Aside from features, use, pros/cons -- why does the AR catch more hate than any other weapon? Is there something about it that marks it as the weapon of choice to criticize or attack?


Three categories that come to mind:
- Knowledgable people with an axe to grind
- Shooters with limited weapons experience
- Jealousy borne from an inability to afford an AR

The AR and AK originated from different design philosphies and were fielded to meet different, doctrinal REQUIREMENTS.

They both fill their respective requirements very well and like many Russian and American systems, tend to be mirror imaged by many.

During the Cold War, the numbers game was constantly discussed by the think tanks and leadership. It essentially boiled down to mass (less complicated Soviet systems) vs quality in fewer, but more lethal Western systems that required a high level of training and extensive maintenence to employ.

The quantity vs quality design philosophy manifested itself throughout the Soviet production effort of Russian aircraft, tanks and naval vessels. Many Soviet systems were not designed to go directly toe to toe with their Western versions. They were designed to be manufactured quickly in large numbers with little to no attention to ergonomics.

Soviet weapons were designed to function as part of a combined arms package. So, before a tank or motorized rifle division came rolling through your position, you would have already been hit with HE and probably non persistent chem artillery and air. 1st echelon forces would roll through your position with BMPs closed up and AK equipped soldiers laying down un-aimed, suppressive fire from their gun ports.

What it comes down to is that the Soviets were coming hard, fast and with a lot of mass using a conscript army that possessed a single skill set with little cross-training. Only snipers needed individual accuracy.

Simplicity and servicability of the AK trumped accuracy and a need for logistics for a more accurate but maintenence intensive weapon. Logistic support was problematic for the Russian Army even in the best years, let alone what most guerrilla armies may have to contend with.

The AK was designed for the mechanized battlefield, but found a niche as the go-to rifle for undertrained, illiterate forces worldwide.

It's just a tool and how it to maximize it's effectiveness is mainly in the operators hands.

I like my AK and ARs for different reasons.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:04:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Ignorance, gullibility, and lack of first hand knowledge.
righton


On many levels.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:16:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
Those that hate glocks don't compare to those that hate AR's.



I was gonna draw this comparison the other way around, Glock haters are rabid. I guess since I'm new to AR's and don't hang out on AK boards I've yet to experience the AR haters. I can tell you the Glock haters are ignorant and stop at nothing to "prove" their "point".

Hell, all I have are AR's and a Glock. I'm really in the crosshairs! Bring it on!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:32:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 6:40:11 AM EST by SteveinAz]
umm, actually that should be: .45acp, DODGE RAM, Coke.

Seriously though, Glocks take a beating on just about every other handgun site as well. People state how many Glocks have failed, Kb's, etc, etc. Well, first of all you've got over a million Glocks in use---that tends to push the percentage of possible problems up. Then you've got alot of yeah-hoos who don't know how to reload trying to get .44 magnum performance out of a .40 rd. That doesn't help Glock's cause either. I've owned Glock's since they hit US shores and have NEVER, EVER experienced any problem with any of them (6 total). My current G17 is 13 yrs old and has had well in excess of 50k rounds thru it. With the exception of a new recoil spring and a Glock 3.5lb connector it is factory original, and has NEVER failed to go bang, feed, extract, and eject......not once.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:40:56 AM EST
Also!!! I think it has something to do with the inability to afford an AR in about 60% of the cases... Same reason that Walmart riding mower owners put down John Deere or Husqvarna mowers...
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:24:31 AM EST
I prefer the AK but if I was actually trained on the AR and knew more about it I would probably prefer the AR but if I was in a situation where I couldn't have a sidearm it would definitely be an AK. My main beef with the AR is the charging handle because if it does jam you can't force it open as well as an AK. I am willing to admit that AR's with chrome lined bores are very reliable and aren't going to jam very often. But one of the things I love about this is we are comparing a 800-900 dollar rifle to a 300-400 dollar rifle. I love both rifles but don't like .223 much. Another reason people like AK's is because it makes them feel evil because when you talk about terrorists ak is gonna come up probably and just knowing how tough the rifle is just like people bragging about having the tougest truck.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:35:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 9:36:54 AM EST by RagingRob]
Why all the hate?..."cause hate is all anyone's seen lately"....

But for a more serious answer...They look very INTIMIDATING to pencil-necked Washington politicians..that could'nt even handle a Red Rider bb gun when they were being shot by other neighborhood kids that were hiding in the bushes violating the "one-pump" rule with their Crossman pellet guns!...oh and Diane F. too.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:47:00 AM EST
One pump rule....thats funny, I did that as a kid. But of coarse I always violated that rule!!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 11:05:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
they bash the AR cause they know, vut wont admit, its better than the AK

but i like both; i just like the AR a lot better

by the way: .45acp, chevy, coke
are the best



Agreed....execpt on the Chevy thing....its Mopar or no car!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:58:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 4:59:30 PM EST by AdamTheFarmer]
To quote local whitetrash "You can get 7 of em SKS for the same price as dat there gun".h.gif
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:33:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 5:57:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 5:57:56 PM EST by MrClean4Hire]

Originally Posted By tesnevo:
Seems to me that all of the hate stems from lack of knowledge of the AR vs AK. Its easy to bash one over the other when you dont know any better.

BTW ALPHAGHOST, I noticed a typo on your reply, I think you meant, 45acp, FORD, coke mountain dew are the best.



Fixed
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:05:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 6:07:05 PM EST by Carbine_Man]
  • The never-dying baggage of failure from Viet Nam: no chrome-lined chambers, tight chambers, bad powder which caused extreme fouling.
  • Envy.
  • Caliber prejudice.
  • WWII-era military thinking.
  • Ignorance of the advantages of direct-gas system.
  • Stupid percieved non-existent disadvantages of direct-gas system.
I think one other factor feeds AR-hatred. Although a good AR is a wonderful thing, a bad one is an absolute nightmare to debug. I believe there are a lot of guys that bought AR's that had quality problems and cheap mags. Went to the range, and experienced jam-city first hand with no return ticket. Every AR manufacturer out there has pushed crap on the unsuspecting before they got their act together.

I am going through this right now with a home built. Every possible failure concievable. It is driving me crazy, and I'm having to replace springs, try different combos of mags and ammo, and do endless mental firing-sequence run-throughs to figure what to try next. And about 500 rounds of ammo so far.

If I didn't have a basic confidence that the system is sound, I would have chucked it in a lake. I can be very sympathetic to someone who buys one rifle and has a bad experience.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:07:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 6:10:06 PM EST by shootsenmeister]
I believe in giving credit where credit is due, most AK supporters are resourceful, resourceful to the point of peeing in a hole and drinking from it. all kidding aside I enjoy shooting them from time to time
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:32:34 PM EST
Coke, Jeep(All else is just transportation), .45acp&9mm, Surefire, Rocky, Brunettes, Fruit of the Loom, Gillette, Charmin, Visene, Ammoco, Mobil one, Mil-Comm, Ivory soap, Tide, Sylvania light bulbs, Black Labs, Red fescue, John Deere,Ducati, Pioneer seed, Sam Adams, Folgers, and......... Generic Kleenex!!!

The AK fits some folks morphology, budget, and way of thinking.
The AR does the same for others.

Closing ones mind between the two and publicly proclaiming one is better than the other and getting emotional about it, always makes me wonder about the status of the individuals mental health.

Not everyone enjoys the same dish and that is normal.
To get ticked off at others for enjoying the dish, and get all wierd about is just a bit disturbing.
I wonder if the same folks get wound up over antifungal foot powder?!

S-28


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:49:35 PM EST
Please allow me to add my 2 cents.

I have seen the same characteristics among every group of brand loyal consumers there is.

I think it boils down to immaturity more than anything else, especially on gunsnet.net.

Pistols: I own Glocks, Walthers, Rugers, HK, S&W, Sigs, Berretta's, Springfield, and Kimbers and I like them all for different reasons. They are all fine firearms, and they all have their own specific personality

Rifles: I own AK's, AR's, SKS', Remington, Winchester, Savage, Weatherby, Ruger, Marlin and I like them all for different reasons. They are all fine firearms and they all have their own specific personality.

Shotguns: I own Browning, Winchesters, Remingtons, and Beretta and I like them all for different reasons. They are all fine firearms and they all have their own specific personality.

You might not like some of the firearms I own, but did I ask you before I bought them? Do I ask you to shoot or clean them?

I am not the type that feels that my preference is elevated by trashing someone else's preference.

IMO, Glock owners are the worlds worst about trashing anything else.

I just think it boils down to immaturity and maybe an inbred intolerance, or an insecure need to flock to people of the same mindset or reaffirm your preference by trashing your non preference.

There are a lot of companies making some damned fine firearms, to close your mind and convince yourself that there is only one good one, is cheating the bearer of that mentality out of a lot of pleasure in gun ownership.

Like those boobs that own one of every caliber Glock, but do not own a Sig, Walther, or H\K. How can their opinion of a Sig, Walther, or H\K be taken seriously when they cannot get passed one type of firearm.

Who wants to go to the range and shoot ONE type or firearm? Not me.


Deep down, it is just immaturity and childishness. Consider the source. Unfortunately, that mentality seems almost too common in the gun owning world.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:08:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:

All I hear is tons of unsubstantiated claims, bandwagoning, appeals to authority (famous military testimonies), Myths and other nonsense.



You sure you weren't watching a Democratic press conference or a Feinsteinian tirade?



Sorry, off topic, but I douldn't help it...

Alpine
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:16:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 10:17:02 PM EST by Mr45auto]
I've got the AK and AR, for me it's AR every time. And for the record it's AR's, M1911's in .45acp, and of course FORD TRUCKS!!!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:20:51 PM EST
I have both AK's and AR's, it's the 10/22 that I hate! Damn rotary magazines and cheap ammo.

+ 1
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:22:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 10:23:18 PM EST by ph713]

Originally Posted By bigkracka:

Hell, all I have are AR's and a Glock. I'm really in the crosshairs! Bring it on!



Ditto. Personally, for my needs and preferences, I've settled on ARs and Glocks, all the way, which makes it open season on me since they're apparently the two most widely-hated things in the gun world. They're all I own (well, other than a shotgun, but I have yet to see any 12 gauge ARs or Glocks).
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:41:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By TexasGunman:
I liked the AK-47 alot,but a semi auto AK-47 is about useless as tits on a bore hog.
I use the think the AK-47 was a great MBR, itleast untill I'd purchased a M4 clone.hr




That is interesting. I never really thought about it in that way. I never fired a full auto AK. I have fired a few semi-auto AK's before. Is it full-auto that really makes the AK stand out? Is that what makes it useful? I find that shooting semi-auto single shots, aimed...is just a greater joy with an AR. Easier.


The AR is used in its military role as a 3-round burst, the AK as a full auto. Since I am discussing civilian weapons that are limited to semi-auto only, which weapon loses more of its "edge" when it is relegated to a semi-auto form?

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 11:22:09 PM EST
my ak makes the rabbit into more/smaller pieces.
my ar hits the rabbit farther out.

i think i need to carry one in each hand.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 3:45:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 3:46:33 AM EST by XM17SBullpup]
+1 For us AR and Glock Owners. And Jeeps.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:05:22 AM EST
A friend of mine always said that the AR-15 was a piece of junk because they had all kinds of problems with the early M16's in Vietnam. (I know totally uneducated assumption) After he fired a couple of my AR's he liked it so much that I sold him a Bushmaster I had. Now he is on his second AR, a RRA NM model. Go figure........
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:32:42 AM EST
have you ever seen the history channels show on the history of the AR? starting with gene stoners armelite? the narrator said at the end of the show that the reason some countrys or people own AKs is that they cant afford ARs


sledge42
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top