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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/18/2005 2:47:32 PM EDT
I was wondering what it was about the MK262 that makes it so superior to the military? I am aware of the Black Hills legacy, but why not Hornady TAP 75gr? I use that for an example because so many seem to believe it is the best combat round available. Maybe it is too expensive, or they just don't have the right political connections. Perhaps it is not as good overall, but I am very curious as to why.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:29:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:03:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Parrandero:
www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm



Yes, I have seen this, and thanks for the reply. But, how does this illustrate the Hornady TAP preformance vs MK262? How might the TAP fragment under similar circumstances? Is it because the Hornady is .223?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:25:05 AM EDT
The reason is the SMK 775 used in the Mk262 is more accurate than the 75gr Hornady round. The people who pushed the Mk262 had more interest in accuracy than in terminal performance. Search the Archives for 'Sinster' and his posts on the subject (he is/was involved with the program).

75gr TAP is available in a 5.56 loading for agencies (and now individual LEOs) with the proper paperwork. I have been informed of pallets of the 75gr TAP being used by group(s) at Ft Bragg in the past. My info is a few years old so I don't know if they are still using TAP or have switched to Mk262.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:10:07 AM EDT
75 grain TAP is superior in terminal performance due to shorter neck till yaw/fragmentation. Whether it is more or less accurate is dependant upon your rifle. I find Sierra 77s and Hornady 75s about the same in accuracy. The old match ammo was always Sierra bullets so thats why the military uses Sierras in MK262. The TAP 75 has a slightly different BC and there is little incentive to change bullets for them as it would require learning new dopes and would temporarily create a problem with two different match ammos in the system.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:32:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 8:36:12 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
I was wondering what it was about the MK262 that makes it so superior to the military? I am aware of the Black Hills legacy, but why not Hornady TAP 75gr? I use that for an example because so many seem to believe it is the best combat round available. Maybe it is too expensive, or they just don't have the right political connections. Perhaps it is not as good overall, but I am very curious as to why.




SIERRA MATCHKINGs, as mentioned above are more accurate at long range than the Hornady round.

Anyone doing much reloading in varying calibers knows that it is pretty tough to beat the MatchKings for long range accuracy. (and yes, I have experimented w/ Hornady and Nosler bullets in similar weights to those offered by Sierra)

YMMV, with your particular set-up, but for my rifles (24" 1/9 twist, 16" & 14.5" 1/7 twist) the 77grn. Matchkings are the most accurate.

Mike


ps - pleas note: that link above is the data for the Nosler 77grn. OTM (open-tip match, designed to compete with the Sierra MatchKing) and NOT the 77grn. SMK which has replaced it in current Mk262 loads.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:34:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
The reason is the SMK 775 used in the Mk262 is more accurate than the 75gr Hornady round. The people who pushed the Mk262 had more interest in accuracy than in terminal performance. Search the Archives for 'Sinster' and his posts on the subject (he is/was involved with the program).

75gr TAP is available in a 5.56 loading for agencies (and now individual LEOs) with the proper paperwork. I have been informed of pallets of the 75gr TAP being used by group(s) at Ft Bragg in the past. My info is a few years old so I don't know if they are still using TAP or have switched to Mk262.



Do you know if the 75gr TAP in 5.56 will be sold to civilians, perhaps in the future?

And aslo, wasn't the 77gr SMK only marginally superior accuracy wise?

Regards,

Justin
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:27:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
Do you know if the 75gr TAP in 5.56 will be sold to civilians, perhaps in the future?


I have no idea. Doubtful if they still have the same paperwork (disclaimer) requirements.


And aslo, wasn't the 77gr SMK only marginally superior accuracy wise?

I don't know what the difference in accuracy was in the Army tests so I won't comment on 'marginally'.

My tests showed no difference but I was shoot off-the-rack chrome lined barrels with 1:9 twist at 100y (relatively short distance), the Army IIRC was using match grade barrels at long ranges.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:53:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 2:55:53 PM EDT by DevL]
5.56 TAP will not be sold to civilians any time soon. However I bet some LEOs will sell some to you if you ask nicely and offer to pay them for hooking you up. What would you pay for 75 grain 5.56 ammo? If you are willing to pay enough and say so here I bet someone would Im you privately.

However would you ever really need the extra fragmenting range? 5.56 pressure usually results in decreased accuracy. 5.56 will also end up costing a lot more than BH 75 grain .223 pressure loads. 14.5" barrels fragement at 100 yards+ and 16" at 150 yards. I cant imagine a civilian shooting taking place at ranges beyond that. If you are using it in a 10 or 11" barrel I could understand but not for a non SBR.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:47:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
5.56 TAP will not be sold to civilians any time soon. However I bet some LEOs will sell some to you if you ask nicely and offer to pay them for hooking you up. What would you pay for 75 grain 5.56 ammo? If you are willing to pay enough and say so here I bet someone would Im you privately.

However would you ever really need the extra fragmenting range? 5.56 pressure usually results in decreased accuracy. 5.56 will also end up costing a lot more than BH 75 grain .223 pressure loads. 14.5" barrels fragement at 100 yards+ and 16" at 150 yards. I cant imagine a civilian shooting taking place at ranges beyond that. If you are using it in a 10 or 11" barrel I could understand but not for a non SBR.



Thanks for this and the other informative replies. You all make some good points. But, is the MK262 really less accurate than the .223 loads? Might make sense that the military would go with the faster round for fragmentation purposes, but I thought the MK262 was known for superior accuracy. Maybe that is only compared to the 55gr and 62gr FMJ?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:15:00 PM EDT
When people purchased the MK262 Nosler BH group buy special ammo it regularly grouped like ball ammo (1.5-2 MOA) and not match ammo. They have to go for max velocity and cant use the powder charge that results in the best accuracy. Individual rifles will vary but MK262 is more accurate than ball ammo and thats all its supposed to be. The odds that if you hand loaded for best accuracy would equal 5.56 pressures is pretty low. Id get all the various ammo you can and accuray test it in YOUR rifle and make a selcetion based on that and not ONLY the frag range of the ammo.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:16:16 PM EDT
Ironically, the BC of the Hornady 75gr bullet is higher than the 77 SMK's BC.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:46:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 11:47:04 PM EDT by V42]
So in other words civilians cannot get the 77 grain load listed in the link posted above: (www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm)
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 5:16:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By V42:
So in other words civilians cannot get the 77 grain load listed in the link posted above: (www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm)



No. The 75 grain TAP is unavailable directly to civies. The mk262 is available in seconds from Cabela's. It is labeled 5.56, 77 Grain MKCL.

Cabela's mk262 seconds.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 7:32:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Feedingcannibal:

Originally Posted By V42:
So in other words civilians cannot get the 77 grain load listed in the link posted above: (www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm)



No. The 75 grain TAP is unavailable directly to civies.



Just a clarification - the 5.56 loading of the 75GR TAP is unavailable to civilians, the .223 loading for the 75gr TAP is available.

Considering the .223 75gr TAP has better performance (for a longer range) than M193 getting the higher pressure 5.56 loading isn't on the priority list for me.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:01:01 AM EDT
I have a few hundred rounds of the 5.56 TAP coming in. I want to use it specifically in a 11.5" barrel to get the frag range lost going from 14.5" barrel to an 11.5" barrel. However the 14.5" barrel was a 1 MOA performer and was a milspecish M4 barrel. The 11.5" is a highly costomised unit and if I dont get sub MOA performance from the 5.56 TAP I will go back to 75 grain BH .223 pressure. The only reason I am even considering the 5.56 ammo is because I am using an SBR. I will still take the factory 75 grain .223 over the MK262 seconds as I dont expect engagements past 50m and regular 75 grain ammo is still better than the SMK at that range and cheaper to boot.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 1:36:19 AM EDT
Where is a good place to buy civi 75 TAP?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:41:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I have a few hundred rounds of the 5.56 TAP coming in. I want to use it specifically in a 11.5" barrel to get the frag range lost going from 14.5" barrel to an 11.5" barrel. However the 14.5" barrel was a 1 MOA performer and was a milspecish M4 barrel. The 11.5" is a highly costomised unit and if I dont get sub MOA performance from the 5.56 TAP I will go back to 75 grain BH .223 pressure. The only reason I am even considering the 5.56 ammo is because I am using an SBR. I will still take the factory 75 grain .223 over the MK262 seconds as I dont expect engagements past 50m and regular 75 grain ammo is still better than the SMK at that range and cheaper to boot.



DevL,

Have you calculated the fragmentation distances for the the 11.5" barrel? I'd be intrested to know what they are with the 75gr TAP as well as the MK262 seconds. I'm assuming they will be about as good as the 14.5" using XM193.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:13:18 AM EDT
Well the barrel I am using has yet to be delivered but is using polygonal rifling and a new electroless nickle/silicon carbide internal finish. While you are correct about an 11.5 being about the same as a 14.5" with M193, this barrel and upper will have every type of velocity enhancing feature I can put into a rifle. It will be a gas piston type which help velocity, use 5.56 pressure ammo, the lined barrels by ABS have show a 75 fps increase in velocity, polgonal barrels give anywhere from 0-2% velocity increase etc. so I dont want to even specualte till I chrono the barrel. Noone locally has regular 11.5" barrels to shoot through 75 grain through a chrono to compare to my 14.5" and I dont like to rely on others posted data to get that figure to do an extrapolation.

From already posted figures, yes 75 grain 5.56 from a 11.5" barrel has about the same fragmentation distance as M193 from a 14.5" but with better terminal performance at all ranges. My pet project rifle with an 11.5" barrel should do as well as a 14.5" using 75 grain TAP FPD and could reach up to the 16" velocity level or even beyond with its suppressor attached. I dont like specualting on something that does not exist though.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:41:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By V42:
So in other words civilians cannot get the 77 grain load listed in the link posted above: (www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm)



Nobody at this time can get the load tested in that link.

That batch used the 77gr Nosler OTMS (not the 77gr SMKs). It was a special order from Black Hills via a site vendor. Some of us got sample boxes to test and report back on. Some of the group who ordered the ammo (all from this site) got their order of this custom ammo - others did not.

That load was expected to be the Mk262 Mod1 loading. Hwever Sierra decided it was in their best interest to add cannalures to the SMK, so their 'enhanced' 77gr bullet was used instead. The Nosler had better terminal performance than the SMK, but again the SMK was more accurate.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:42:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Well the barrel I am using has yet to be delivered but is using polygonal rifling and a new electroless nickle/silicon carbide internal finish. ...



Sounds like an engineers dream rifle, I'm green with envy. You've got to report back on it when you've got it built.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:09:15 AM EDT
One of the simplest reasons 77-grain ammo got exposure to the US Army Special Operations Command is the fact when Afghanistan-bound 5th Group came to the AMU immediately after 9-11 we already had pallets of 77s on-hand for the 2002 competition season. There weren't enough homogenous pallet lots of ammo (69s, 73s, or 75s) to load 55,000+ rounds on the truck.

What was on-hand was mixed lots of Federal 69s, Black Hills Berger 73s (the most accurate), and mixed plain and moly Black Hills (Hornady) 75s. The 77s were the quickest single-lot number we could issue out without having to worry about Soldiers having to mix and match zeroes between heavy and M855.

The 77s are good ammo, and have proven themeselves. We continuously check ammo, by lot, to ensure the shoot the most accurate groups at 200 and 300 with match rifles, and all the way from 600 to 500 and 300, rapid-fire, when fired from short-throat M16s used for Infantry Trophy rapid-fire matches (the "Rattle Battle").

I don't understand folks who grouse about the shortage of one heavy 73, 75, or 77-grain lot of their "Boutique" load. Any patient, competent handloader should be able to duplicate production recipes with a little work.

Hornady custom loads commercial 75-grain Match, and I doubt you'd notice the difference between it and the Army 5.56mm contract load (much like the 168-grain 7.62mm match loads they made in the early 90s).
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 1:43:23 AM EDT
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