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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/6/2005 9:39:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 9:42:38 PM EDT by lilricky2]
I have had an ongoing love affair with "ol' slab sides" for my entire adult life. In fact I just ordered a Bar-Sto barrel for one I am building my Dad. I now find myself vert intrigued by these pistols. They definately peg out the "cool" meter. Where can I get a couple of the designated lowers for myself and my Dad? I need to to put a couple of these together, if for no other reason than to knot up Feinstein's bloomers. I have been involved in the shooting sports for over 25 years but I am admittedly new to the AR-15 world.

Rick
Edited for spelling, my fingers don't always go where my mind tells them to.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:16:47 PM EDT
LCW, LAUER CUSTOM WEAPONRY, makes a great lower, and offers a specific pistol only lower.
LCW
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:33:18 PM EDT
Ameetec Arms sells a variety of lowers. I've got an Ameetec brand and a Mega brand and they are both good.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 11:34:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 12:03:17 AM EDT
You do know that any virgin stripped lower can be used, right?

Those pistol lowers are identical to rifle lowers. I'm most cases they pocek the extra $$ from those stupid enough to pay extra for the same thing. There are a few circumstances where specailyl marked pistol lowers are warranted. But in most cases it's unnecessary.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 5:43:36 AM EDT by Big-Bore]

Originally Posted By NAM:
You do know that any virgin stripped lower can be used, right?

Those pistol lowers are identical to rifle lowers. I'm most cases they pocek the extra $$ from those stupid enough to pay extra for the same thing. There are a few circumstances where specailyl marked pistol lowers are warranted. But in most cases it's unnecessary.



+100
Biggest rip-off for the (sucker) consumer that I can recall in a long time unless there are special state laws.
See tacked ATFE letter above.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 6:17:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
You do know that any virgin stripped lower can be used, right?

Those pistol lowers are identical to rifle lowers. I'm most cases they pocek the extra $$ from those stupid enough to pay extra for the same thing. There are a few circumstances where specailyl marked pistol lowers are warranted. But in most cases it's unnecessary.



Phew! I ordered a stripped Stag Arms lower for my pistol build.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 6:29:13 AM EDT
Pistol->rifle = legal
Rifle->pistol= Illegal

now... here's the part that confuses most people:

Pistol->rifle->pistol=legal.

As long as it was first assembled as a pistol, it cna be either a pistol or a rifle.
If it started as a rifle, it can only be a rifle.

As for the FFL transfer. He can call it whatever he wants....pistol, rifle, mongoose. THe ATF is only concerned with whether it was actually assembled or not. A stripped receiver is a stripped receiver.... i.e. neither a rifle or a pistol. But it is a firearm.

(this is federal law only....local laws may differ)
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 7:21:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 7:32:31 AM EDT by Big-Bore]
NAM; one little correction. YOU can call BS all you want but I think you should read the letter from the ATFE regarding pistol builds that is tacked at the top of the Pistol forum. That would keep you from discrediting people who know what they are talking about (namely the ATFE) and giving out bad information that may result in others getting in to trouble.

The ATFE has told me (see letter mentioned above) that it should NOT say rifle on the 4473. It can say damned near anything else in the description but it should not say "rifle" anywhere in the description. If the lower in question is described on the 4473 as a stripped rifle lower you could have problems, but so long as the word "rifle" is not used you are in the clear totally.'
It also does NOT matter how it is called in to NICS. That section has no bearing on it at all. So, if called into NICS as "long arm" don't sweat it. It would be better IMO that it be called in as "pistol" or "both" but I was told if it was called in to NICS as "rifle" it doesn't matter squat, just as long as it does not say "rifle" in the description part of the 4473.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 1:56:24 PM EDT
i am somewhat familiar with the virgin lower concept from reading these forums. I guess my only question about doing it that way is, what documentation would you need from the dealer to satisfy the BATF? Would the yellow sheet work? I realize you would have to maintain said documentation for the life of the pistol. The virgin lower idea would be the ideal way to go since you can get a pretty good buy on three or more at one time.

Rick
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:21:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lilricky2:
i am somewhat familiar with the virgin lower concept from reading these forums. I guess my only question about doing it that way is, what documentation would you need from the dealer to satisfy the BATF? Would the yellow sheet work? I realize you would have to maintain said documentation for the life of the pistol. The virgin lower idea would be the ideal way to go since you can get a pretty good buy on three or more at one time.

Rick



I simply kept my reciept (which I would do anyway) that shows the purchase of a STRIPPED lower reciever and the corresponding serial number.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:23:10 PM EDT
I have AR pistol lowers available at 130.00 each. They are laser engraved with our logo and Pistol identification. They are listed as true pistols not rifles.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:10:15 PM EDT
ACKF - are those complete lowers?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:35:17 AM EDT
OK I read the ATF letter Big-Bore has as a sticky and I have read a lot of threads including this one that states there is no such thing as a pistol lower other than listing it as a pistol when your dealer fills out 4473.

The ATF letter seems clear that the lower must be listed as a pistol lower when it leaves the factory but several here state that it only has to state pistol when you first fill out the "yellow sheet".

I am not trying to start a flame war but just want to see what I am missing. There is a local show this weekend and I may purchase a lower if I see a good deal. BUT if the lower must leave the factory listed in records as a pistol lower and continue that path all the way to me for my 4473 then I guess I will be SOL. I have yet to see anyone at a local show selling any "pistol specific" lowers.

My local dealers and pawn shops charge an awful lot to justify me purchasing off the internet, most transfer fees are $25 plus $5 NCIS. Other places go for $30 to $50 which does not make the idea of purchasing at will mail order all that pleasant. I usually go to shows and if I find a deal stock up on what I think I will need for the next 6 or so months if it requires a transfer but when looking for something this specific I think I may be SOL this weekend! I was actually thinking of buying 4-5 lowers have them stamped with my own serial numbers and working out a lower transfer fee deal with a pawn shop if I can't get one during the show.

Rich

Rich
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:01:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLRich:

I am not trying to start a flame war but just want to see what I am missing. There is a local show this weekend and I may purchase a lower if I see a good deal. BUT if the lower must leave the factory listed in records as a pistol lower and continue that path all the way to me for my 4473 then I guess I will be SOL.



Bottom line: Did it leave the company as a complete rifle or stripped lower?

If it left the company as a stripped lower, you should be legally in the clear to build it into a pistol.

I would CYA and put pistol on the 4473. I still say it's not necessary, but that is neither here nor there. Never hurts to cover your ass.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 3:38:26 PM EDT
The thing is I am only talking about federal law. Every state has their own little quirks and there is no way with my feeble little mind I could keep all of them straight even if I wanted to. Federally there is no need to have a lower "papered" as a pistol by the maker; that is pure BS that the makers use to try and scare you into paying more money for their "special" lowers.
Now, some states MIGHT have a law stating that the lower must be papered from the maker as a pistol lower. I know some states require that for a lower that is going to be used in a pistol build the buyer needs to jump through the pistol buying hoops that are special to that state. Of those types of regulations I will not even try to address.
It is always prudent for a person contemplating a pistol build such as this to check out their state laws. IF the state says that a pistol has to be papered by the maker as a pistol then I guess you need to pay the extra money for a special pistol lower, but most states do not require such nonsense.

The only really big issue on the federal level is what if a person 18 years old wants to buy a lower for a pistol build. Since federally a person needs to be 21 to buy a pistol from a dealer, then it would make since that a person doing a pistol build needs to be 21 to buy the lower also, and not just 18 as is required for a person buying a rifle or rifle lower. However, that is a topic of discussion on another day.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:50:24 PM EDT
Here is FL I have no idea about the Pistol Lowers etc. but I'll try to do a quick search and see what is up. Yes.. states like NJ where I had lived and some of the other NE States where pistol laws are much more restrictive than their long gun laws (heck still restrictive too).

I am wondering if I can find a company that will do a small quantity of lowers stamped as Pistol and for the Caliber have "Caliber-Multiple" along with possibly my own serial number series. I know that several places do that, just don't know what the minimum is and how much extra it would cost. I got a bit of extra cash right now, I would not mind purchasing 4 or so lowers if the price is reasonable. I know that eventually I would build them all.

For this weekend I'll just see what I can find and ask the dealer to check off pistol on the 4473. If I find out that Florida requires more BS from the manufacturer than I got then I'll just build it as another carbine, I only have 2 AR's so far, 3 is still reasonable.

Rich
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:04:42 PM EDT
I talked to the local shop I have been dealing with recently today. Spoke to him about some transfer fees (only $30 if I bought a bunch of lowers instead of $25 for each) and then spoke to him about the 4473's. He stated that he would not check off Pistol on a striped lower unless the lower came in as a pistol lower. I have searched all the state firearms statutes and nothing states anything to that effect so I guess I will need to search for other dealers if I do go mail order.

I will be going to a "show" in the morning and I'll check with some of the AR vendors. Hopefully I'll find some decent priced lowers and a vendor that will check Pistol. Don't know how I will be able to get a copy of the 4473 at a gun show but maybe I'll be able to get them to fax it to me. If worse comes to worse I will have them noted on the receipt dated and I'll buy a sunday paper to document it in a photograph.

I hate doing mail order.. the little bit I save in $$ I lose in transfer/NCIS fees and I usually end up spending more due to shipping costs. Looked all over the EE last night and did not see any great deals there, local shows have DPMS at $125 and most of the EE prices are at that or above.

Rich
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