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Posted: 9/17/2012 5:37:35 PM EDT
I see NightForce makes a really nice 20 MOA 30mm one peice mount but I'm looking for lower cost options.
I would prefer one peice, they just seems sturdier and don't require lapping.

Anybody come across any in their travels?

Joe
Link Posted: 9/17/2012 5:42:43 PM EDT
I haven't, but when I asked la rue about it, they said it wasn't necessary unless I planned on really long range. I am doing a 1-4x on mine though, what are your plans?

You can call la rue and they will probably point you in the right direction even if they don't have what you are looking for.
Link Posted: 9/17/2012 7:00:55 PM EDT
I have a 6-24x50 scope on an FNAR (.308) and a 5-20x50 scope on a 20" AR (5.56).

The scope on the AR has more than 2/3 of its elevation dialed out to get to 100 yards.
To dial it out past 600, I will need an inclined base.

The 6-24 could dial out a little farther, but since I've spent over $800 on each scope, spending a bit more on the right base makes sense.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/17/2012 8:49:37 PM EDT
The Nightforce Direct Mount looks nice but it has its disadvantages.  It limits the placement of the scope and could potentially keep you from setting up the scope for the right eye relief.  Also if you have to remove the scope for any reason, you cant just loosen the rings, take the scope off and remount it with ease.  You have to completely dismount it from the rings.

A quality one piece base and ring set up gives you more flexibility and is just as strong.  Look at Seekins, Badger, Leupold MK4, and Nightforce.

ETA:  The above is in reference to the bolt gun.
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 3:29:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 8:45:20 AM EDT
Quoted:
The Nightforce Direct Mount looks nice but it has its disadvantages.  It limits the placement of the scope and could potentially keep you from setting up the scope for the right eye relief.  Also if you have to remove the scope for any reason, you cant just loosen the rings, take the scope off and remount it with ease.  You have to completely dismount it from the rings.

A quality one piece base and ring set up gives you more flexibility and is just as strong.  Look at Seekins, Badger, Leupold MK4, and Nightforce.

ETA:  The above is in reference to the bolt gun.


The FNAR is a semiauto precision rifle with a picatinny rail.

Basically, both rifles need the same mount although the FNAR has a longer rail and would work fine without a cantilever setup.
The AR needs a cantilever mount, and I think the NF mount is about right for eye relief, but it's more than I want to spend right now.

Thanks for weighing in, it's all helpful.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 8:52:10 AM EDT
Quoted:
for the AR


I've never been real confident with that style of ring mount.
In theory the ring halves could move on the base, as friction from the bottom clamp screw is the only thing holding them in place, unless there is a location pin captured between the rings and the mount.

The price is great, and I know AD stuff is GTG.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 9:12:39 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Nightforce Direct Mount looks nice but it has its disadvantages.  It limits the placement of the scope and could potentially keep you from setting up the scope for the right eye relief.  Also if you have to remove the scope for any reason, you cant just loosen the rings, take the scope off and remount it with ease.  You have to completely dismount it from the rings.

A quality one piece base and ring set up gives you more flexibility and is just as strong.  Look at Seekins, Badger, Leupold MK4, and Nightforce.

ETA:  The above is in reference to the bolt gun.


The FNAR is a semiauto precision rifle with a picatinny rail.

Basically, both rifles need the same mount although the FNAR has a longer rail and would work fine without a cantilever setup.
The AR needs a cantilever mount, and I think the NF mount is about right for eye relief, but it's more than I want to spend right now.

Thanks for weighing in, it's all helpful.

Joe


Yeah after I posted I saw your 2nd post wich clarified the two.  Originally I thought you were talking about the Direct Mount for 700s.  

I have the NF UniMount on an AR and it is very nice but yeah it was expensive.  I bought it because I needed something lower than everything else on the market.  I have the 1.125" height because I like a high cheekweld vs optic centerline.
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 9:37:53 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Nightforce Direct Mount looks nice but it has its disadvantages.  It limits the placement of the scope and could potentially keep you from setting up the scope for the right eye relief.  Also if you have to remove the scope for any reason, you cant just loosen the rings, take the scope off and remount it with ease.  You have to completely dismount it from the rings.

A quality one piece base and ring set up gives you more flexibility and is just as strong.  Look at Seekins, Badger, Leupold MK4, and Nightforce.

ETA:  The above is in reference to the bolt gun.


The FNAR is a semiauto precision rifle with a picatinny rail.

Basically, both rifles need the same mount although the FNAR has a longer rail and would work fine without a cantilever setup.
The AR needs a cantilever mount, and I think the NF mount is about right for eye relief, but it's more than I want to spend right now.

Thanks for weighing in, it's all helpful.

Joe


Yeah after I posted I saw your 2nd post wich clarified the two.  Originally I thought you were talking about the Direct Mount for 700s.  

I have the NF UniMount on an AR and it is very nice but yeah it was expensive.  I bought it because I needed something lower than everything else on the market.  I have the 1.125" height because I like a high cheekweld vs optic centerline.


I called Larue and they do not have a cantilever one piece in 20 MOA.
Their rings mount to the base in the same manner as the AD, so the nod (for the AR) goes to the AD mount there, since it is less expensive, has 20 MOA, and similar construction to the Larue.

I currently have an RRA one peice non-canti mount on the FNAR.
It has a little forward offset, and eye relief is not an issue on that rifle, as I have plenty of rail forward left.
The RRA mount is built like a tank, is cheap, and has worked great... it's a bit higher than it needs to be but there is an advantage to a high scope centerline.
That advantage is that to zero at intermediate (100 or 200 yards) the barrel is tipped up a bit more with a scope on a higher centerline, making the trajectory closer to the horizontal, a little anyway.
The downside is that not keeping the rifle plumb (scope level) affect the POI vs POA more the higher the scope centerline is.
All that aside, the RRA is not sloped at all.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 9:43:54 AM EDT
Quoted:
I haven't, but when I asked la rue about it, they said it wasn't necessary unless I planned on really long range. I am doing a 1-4x on mine though, what are your plans?

You can call la rue and they will probably point you in the right direction even if they don't have what you are looking for.


They make both a 10 and 20 MOA mount. I guess there is enough demand now.
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 9:59:27 AM EDT
They don't have a canti with 20, just 10. For this application, I need a canti with 20 MOA.
Joe
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 10:35:16 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
for the AR


I've never been real confident with that style of ring mount.
In theory the ring halves could move on the base, as friction from the bottom clamp screw is the only thing holding them in place, unless there is a location pin captured between the rings and the mount.

The price is great, and I know AD stuff is GTG.

Joe


No they can not.

Not sure were you are getting that. They are through bolted. The bolts go through the ring halfs, through the mount into the threads on the other ring halfs. They can not move fore or aft on the bace.

Link Posted: 9/18/2012 3:48:54 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
for the AR


I've never been real confident with that style of ring mount.
In theory the ring halves could move on the base, as friction from the bottom clamp screw is the only thing holding them in place, unless there is a location pin captured between the rings and the mount.

The price is great, and I know AD stuff is GTG.

Joe


No they can not.

Not sure were you are getting that. They are through bolted. The bolts go through the ring halfs, through the mount into the threads on the other ring halfs. They can not move fore or aft on the bace.



I understand exactly how they go together.
Unless there is zero clearance between the through hole in the base and the screw (not likely) OR a pin that is captured in the mount and engages in a blind hole on the inside of each ring half, the rings can absolutely move with a good shove, as the only force holding the rings relative to the mount is friction. There is nothing keying the parts together to prevent a shift in alignment.

Granted, it would take a pretty big shove, but still... I went to a 1 piece mount from rings because sometimes I would get to the range and the scope had shifted.
In the event that the first shot has to count, that could be a problem.

I'll probably get one for the AR but not the FNAR.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/18/2012 7:52:21 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
for the AR


I've never been real confident with that style of ring mount.
In theory the ring halves could move on the base, as friction from the bottom clamp screw is the only thing holding them in place, unless there is a location pin captured between the rings and the mount.

The price is great, and I know AD stuff is GTG.

Joe


No they can not.

Not sure were you are getting that. They are through bolted. The bolts go through the ring halfs, through the mount into the threads on the other ring halfs. They can not move fore or aft on the bace.



I understand exactly how they go together.
Unless there is zero clearance between the through hole in the base and the screw (not likely) OR a pin that is captured in the mount and engages in a blind hole on the inside of each ring half, the rings can absolutely move with a good shove, as the only force holding the rings relative to the mount is friction. There is nothing keying the parts together to prevent a shift in alignment.

Granted, it would take a pretty big shove, but still... I went to a 1 piece mount from rings because sometimes I would get to the range and the scope had shifted.
In the event that the first shot has to count, that could be a problem.

I'll probably get one for the AR but not the FNAR.

Joe


I'm not as familiar with the AD mount, but if they use the same method as Larue it can't shift.  With the Larue mounts the nuts on the bottom of the rings are round and extend into the holes in the base acting as a pin.  They even offset which side has the nut so that each ring half has a nut extending into the base.  Maybe somebody with an AD mount can chime in if the same method is used.  If so, the rings have no way of shifting.
Link Posted: 9/19/2012 6:11:54 AM EDT
There are no exploded views that depict the alignment bosses on the rings, but that's just the kind of thing I was looking for.

I couldn't understand how AD or LT would sell mounts without some sort of alignment built in.

Thanks for your help.

Joe

*edit* just spoke to AD, the ring on one side is pinned. Placing order now.

Joe

*edit* I lied, I bought 2. I hate paying $10 to ship one item... my solution, buy more
Link Posted: 9/21/2012 3:59:12 PM EDT
Wow did I ever f*ck up.

Received 2 ADM Recon 20 MOA mounts today.

They look pretty nice.

Clean the oil off, prep the screws with the thread dressing they provide, then go to mount one on a rifle.

Finishing both the cam and the plate it bears on in anodizing is a bad idea.

Even with grease on the cam, with even a small amount of "lock" adjusted in, the levers are damn near impossible to release because of the tremendous friction.

Well, I don't plan on taking them off anyway.

Mount up scopes on 2 different rifles.

I almost run out of windage bore sighting the first one, a Bushnell Tactical Elite, that was 2 mils off center on the last mount, an RRA one piece. The same RRA mount had 2 scopes before the Bushnell that were lessthan an MOA off center when zeroed.

The second, a Trijicon, is 4 mils off center when I get it bore sighted. It was 1/4 mil off center mounted with the ARMS rings I had it on.

There's something SERIOUSLY effed up with these mounts.

So much for my big plans to go shooting tomorrow.

That's what I get for trying to save a few bucks.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/21/2012 8:38:21 PM EDT
Are you properly torquing the rings?  I run two AD Recons with no issue with either.  Also, you may want to loosen he QD levers as they should be tightened down but you should be able to flip the levers with slight effort.

Also, when you use an elevated mount and you adjust your zero, are you at the bottom of your elevation adjustment?  If you sre, your windage will be limited much sooner then when your elevation is centered.
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 4:43:42 AM EDT
Rings torqued properly: yes... I have extensive experience with precision assemblies

Windage adjustment limited: both scopes have plenty of windage adjustment at the lower limit of elevation adjustment; with this in mind, the requirement for a mount that is extremly straight is increased at 20 MOA, and in that regard they have failed with the 2 examples I was shipped

clamping pressure: of course I've experimented with the adjustment; 1/8 of a turn change in the adjustment screw is enough to go from barely clamping to so much forch required that there's no way to get it apart witout something to pry the levers up

Joe
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 10:05:25 AM EDT
I spent a few hours moving the rings around between positions (front and rear) on both mounts and found a moreacceptable combination for both mounts and scopes.

At the range this morning, after zeroing both rifles (FNAR with Bushy Elite Tac 6-24x50 FFP and 20" AR frankengun with Trijicon TR23) I ended up with theBushnell 3.5 mil (about 12 MOA) and the Trijicon 8.5 MOA off center in windage adjustment, both in the same direction.

They are both very close to the lower limit adjustment in elevation at 100 yards, so that has worked out well.

I had hoped to retain more windage, especially on the FNAR, where I am limited to 3.8 mils or 12 MPH winds at 1000 yards.

That will likely suffice. My opportunity to shoot at 1000 will be pretty limited.

Tolerance stack up is always going to be a problem with assemblies, but I've been unable to find a true one piece 20 MOA mount anywhere near the price of the ADM, so I'll live with it.

If the assemblies were "matched" at the factory then ADM should have stated that fact in their included instructions. My guess is they are not matched, however.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 12:13:31 PM EDT
They're not matched as you can get different rings for them if you need a different size.

You don't need to tighten the levers down that much for the mount to be completely locked to the upper.  Simple finger pressure should be able to easily unlock the lever.  You don't want it difficult to open or close because as that point you're flexing or bending things.  I'll wager that having the levers that tight are part of your windage problem.  Loosen them up.

To whoever was thinking that the ADM rings can slip on the base, you DON'T know how they go together.  You are assuming that you know, but you simply don't.  They DO have an indexing pin and they aren't moving anywhere if you install everything correctly.
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 2:26:00 PM EDT
Matched or not, there is enogh variation that simply moving rings to different locations was enough to remove correct several mils on the mils scope and 10 MOA misalignment on the Trijicon. Maybe they should be matched?

I was the one who suggested it was possible that the rings could move on the base until I was informed that the right rings are pinned (which is not described or pictured anywhere on their own or their resellers websites), which is why I then bought 2 of the mounts.

The cam screws are tightened 2 flats (90 degrees) past the point where they do not lock at all.

I also tried them at 1 flat past loose, with no change in the POI.

I can't loosen them anymore or they will slide around on the rail.

With 20 years in manufacturing, as a machinist, machine designer, CNC programmer, and 5 years in tool & die (I still maintain a machine shop in my garage), I've considered all of the possible factors that could infuence the misalignment that I'm seeing, and I've experimented with all of them, with the same result; 2 quality scopes are pretty far off center of the windage adjustment when properly assembled and zeroed.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 7:47:17 PM EDT
Quoted:

clamping pressure: of course I've experimented with the adjustment; 1/8 of a turn change in the adjustment screw is enough to go from barely clamping to so much forch required that there's no way to get it apart witout something to pry the levers up

Joe


You are absolutely correct.
I have ADM mount waiting for the scope.  I pulled it from the box; installed it, and  I get the same result.
Loose. 1/8 turn and I cannot open the levers. I used a piece of flat wood as a pry bar to get it open.
On top of that, the levers do not apply equal pressure. Threads are too course for fine adjustment.

It's a Pry Bar Detachable Mount. It's going back for a refund.
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 8:17:28 PM EDT
You might look at the DNZ game reaper. I've got one on a Win M70 and so far so good. I do think they make a 20 MOA.

Never mind. Looks like it is $200. You can get an LT mount for that price.
Link Posted: 9/22/2012 8:18:32 PM EDT
I  know when I move my scope from my MA-Ten to my Spikes and Mega Side-Charger I need to adjust the cross-bolt/Lever as each upper is a little different but I am able to tighten yet loose enough to remove by hand.  I guess I'm lucky.
Link Posted: 9/23/2012 11:07:53 AM EDT
The QD is not a deal breaker for me, as I was not looking for QD anyway.

I found that by slipping a rag or strong string under the forward lever and pulling, it can be opened without too much drama. I can get my finger behind the rear lever and open it without tools, but the forward lever doesn't really provide any way to grab it. Like I said this is okay.

If money was no object I'd just buy the Nightforce 20 MOA one piece mount. It is likely typical Nightforce quality but $100 more per rifle. I know, buy once, cry once.

LoneWolfUSMC did a review of the ADM mount (with pretty much the same scope I have on the FNAR) and found that return to zero when the QD was removed and reinstalled was not perfect but it did hold zero once mounted.

That and the fact that I have them working reasonably well means I will probably keep them.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/23/2012 11:10:17 AM EDT
Quoted:
You might look at the DNZ game reaper. I've got one on a Win M70 and so far so good. I do think they make a 20 MOA.

Never mind. Looks like it is $200. You can get an LT mount for that price.


I looked at DNZ stuff but didn't see a 20 MOA cantilever weaver rail mount.

Joe
Link Posted: 10/1/2012 3:25:36 PM EDT
Update;

Last week I disassembled the mounts to loctite the screws.
The thread dressing they included, which I applied first go around, didn't survive the first disassembly, even though I think it's supposed to.

After carefully reassembling the mouts with blue loctite applied and the fasteners torqued, I went back to the range.
Both scopes had shifted noticeably, and the Bushnell/FNAR combo couldn't even be zeroed at 100... I was 1/2 mil short of enough elevation travel. This was probably a result of the windage having shifted 1 mil the wrong way since the last assembly.

I called Primary Arms and explained my dissatisfaction with the product, and my desire to return it for a refund. The CS rep put me on hold, and the operations manager picked up and informed me that since the product was used they would not take it back. I was furious, and just hung up on the guy, which was not the best way to handle it, but it was better than what was going to come out of my mouth.

Worth mentioning at this point is that if I had applied a light coat of oil to the mounts (like how they arrived) you could never even tell they had been handled. Used, my ass.

I contacted ADM, who asked that I send them in, at which point they would exchange them for new and inspect what I sent back.

I got a notification that the package was delivered on Friday, and an email from Dean in CS today.

"I just finished inspecting and doing some measuring on these and they are out of spec much more than allowed.
The two that I’m sending back to you I also took measurements on and they are within .0015 to center.
I’m not sure how these two got through our inspection dept. and out the door to a customer, and I hope we don’t have more floating out there.
I apologize for this mistake and inconvenience. I will be talking to my boss to see how we can pay you for the shipping back to us.
I’m also going to send these back to you UPS Next Day air so you should see them tomorrow."

What great customer service!

Bummer about Primary Arms, though. I'll never spend another cent with them.

I'll report how the new mounts go on.

Joe
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 4:06:49 PM EDT
Took an extra day to get my replacements but I understand, next day air UPS is heinously expensive.

ADM refunded my shipping expense along with the new mounts.

Zeroed at the 100 yard range today, both scopes had almost no elevation adjustment left (nearly perfect) and were about 6 MOA off center. Not perfect, but plenty of windage adjustment left.

On their website they point out that the levers can point either way, so I rotated the front lever forward to make it easier to open. Functionally much better, and it doesn't look bad, either IMHO.

ADM is a class act.

Joe
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 4:18:02 PM EDT
I don't see a problem with PA not taking it back.  No matter the condition, it was used.  Distributors have to draw the line somewhere.  If they take back everything all the time, and don't get reimbursed for it, they stand to lose a ton of money.  Do it long enough and you go out of business.  Some manufacturers will not reimburse the distributors after 30 days, some not at all.  There are exceptions to every rule, but you catch my drift.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 4:53:11 PM EDT
Quoted:
I don't see a problem with PA not taking it back.  No matter the condition, it was used.  Distributors have to draw the line somewhere.  If they take back everything all the time, and don't get reimbursed for it, they stand to lose a ton of money.  Do it long enough and you go out of business.  Some manufacturers will not reimburse the distributors after 30 days, some not at all.  There are exceptions to every rule, but you catch my drift.


Plenty of vendors have a satisfaction guarantee, and those are the ones I will deal with in the future.

As I've already proven, I had a legitimate gripe with the mounts. Wasn't buyer's remorse, the mounts were defective.

Joe
Link Posted: 10/6/2012 6:52:41 AM EDT
I don't know if you still need one but Aadland makes a 20moa mount.
Link Posted: 10/6/2012 4:47:51 PM EDT
Quoted:
I don't know if you still need one but Aadland makes a 20moa mount.


Never heard of them before (and none of my searches turned them up, either) but a search for Aadland returns SWFA sells 'em.

They look really nice... cantilever, non QD, integrated bubble level, too.

If I need any more I'll seriously consider them, thanks.

Joe
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