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Posted: 9/19/2004 9:46:56 PM EDT
Well... since I will probably only buy A,B,C,R,LMT,CMMG... who's going to be the first to release an UPPER?


My thoughts is as follows:

Amaralite - might do it but there pretty big into their AR10's

Bushmaster - has the money to do it... I would expect them to do it first

COLT - heck no... colt doesn't give a rat

RRA - maybe... i bet they'll come out with the rifles but not first

LMT - strong contender since they already make M4 feedramps...

CMMG - who knows :)

---

what do you think?  Is my 6.8 dream just a dream?  Or reality?
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 9:51:07 PM EDT
I'm currently deciding on which M4 upper I should start looking into, 6.8 might be a good idea...especially if/when the ammo becomes available. Bushmaster probably would be the first....
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:34:11 AM EDT
Model 1 Sales  already has them.  been a few months now.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:13:20 AM EDT
well i know that... but like you said its model 1... i want ABCRLC  
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:14:29 AM EDT
Yeah, I want one that works...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:37:39 AM EDT
read in shotgun news  about rock river having ther're 6.8 out this fall
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:40:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:55:12 AM EDT
Rumors, rumors, rumors......................

If the rumor of the program being sh!#canned by the military is true, I doubt you will see any of the ABC.......s taking up the caliber.  So I wait........................
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:33:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:35:46 PM EDT
I doubt any of the big boys would take it up anytime soon, if ever. I can only think of Olympic that does the more obscure cartridges,, and I know they don't like it. Huge preachy rant on oa2.org
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:51:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 12:53:02 PM EDT by mongo001]
6.8 SPC.......................may she Rest In Peace.



Ok, then, who's going to sell me a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt...............anyone??................anyone??............................[crickets chirping]
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:54:32 PM EDT
LMT has said they'll run some 6.8SPC MRP barrels as soon as ammo is available in volume, and I'm pretty sure Bushmaster said the same for uppers.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
LMT has said they'll run some 6.8SPC MRP barrels as soon as ammo is available in volume, and I'm pretty sure Bushmaster said the same for uppers.




While I don't doubt that one bit, I am wondering if that postition would change if/when the military officially dumps the program.  Still waiting..................still searching...............[crickets still chirping]
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:00:17 PM EDT
Dumps it from limited SF use, you mean?

What are you searching for?   Ammo?  Brass?   Proof it has or hasn't been cancelled? ????
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:08:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Dumps it from limited SF use, you mean?

What are you searching for?   Ammo?  Brass?   Proof it has or hasn't been cancelled? ????



I am waiting to see if it will be mainstream, commonplace, readily available.  I know you have been shooting it for most of the year, but I just don't want to commit to some possible wildcat caliber that may end up being a flash in the pan.  As you know, there is a substantial committment in equipment to gear up to load a particular caliber.  I don't want to go down that road unless I am 100% sure that I will have what I need to shoot this thing from here until the end of time, if need be.  I don't want to be fireforming, wildcatting other calibers to make brass and all that BS.  If it becomes mainstream, I'll get one, if not, oh well.

What incentive is there for any of the companies, including Remington, to continue to mass produce this round/equipment if there isn't a committment from the gov't to support them.  A few casual shooters like you and I won't keep them in business.

I'm patient, when I want to be.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:19:16 PM EDT
Remington and others introduce new calibers almost ever year, and shooters buy them with some assurance that ammo will be available.   Recent examples include 300WSM, 7WSM, 270WSM, the RSAUM's, etc.   These are aimed completely at the civilian sporting crowd, and they seem to do ok.     So I don't there needs to be government commitment to introduce a new round.

It was unrealistic, from the begining, to ever hope that 6.8SPC would completely replace 5.56 as standard military round in the near future.   The best possible scenario was that it could be a wild success in SF use and after it was well entrenched there, a conversion would be possible in the next 10 years.    Nobody who understands large bureaucracies and internal politics of same could suggest otherwise with a straight face.    

The idea that within, what, 6 months of announcement at SHOT, there would be pallets of cheap, surplus ammunition available is insane.   The best case would be that one or two manufacturers would offer OTM loadings for about the same price as match 308.   This is ostensibly what Remington is doing, but supposedly all the production is going to the military.

In some totally unrelated thread, one of the Cavalry Arms guys said that the number of privately-purchased rifles sold each year completely eclipses any possible order from any military on earth.  

-z

 

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:28:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Nobody who understands large bureaucracies and internal politics of same could suggest otherwise with a straight face.  -z



Spent a little time in the military, so I FULLY understand large bureaucracies and what they are capable of - and I didn't keep a straight face for 99% of that time either - I was either pissed off at the world for the dorked up system I had to work in or was crying my eyes out in laughter because of the dorked up system I had to work in.

The 6.5 Grendel is mentioned in the Defense Review article and is actually what I want anyways, as it is a superior bullet in the ballstics department.  I just don't want to pay a grand for their pitiful offerings of uppers.  I'd have to add another $500 or so, just to get it where I want it.  It would be funny/ironic should that emerge and the 6.8 ends up taking a back seat.  Just pondering the possibilities.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:35:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:40:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Ok, then, who's going to sell me a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt...............anyone??................anyone??............................[crickets chirping]



Mongo, IM me if you really want one... and a mag or two maybe?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:41:11 PM EDT

look at 10mm, it is still a round that you can purchase anywhere and it is not even being used by FBI.


I need to shop where you get your ammo!  I had to buy a case and get it shipped to me!  Oh well, I might do the same with the 6.8 when funds allow...

Spooky
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:54:44 PM EDT
I think a lot of you guys have a criteria for "acceptance" that is not realistic.   It seems like some will only consider 6.8SPC a success when they can buy a case of ammo for $180 or less.    

Let's get real.   You only see that for calibers that have been in use for 25+ years by major world militaries.  40SW is just about at that cost point and it's been around for 14 - FOURTEEN - years and adopted by a gazillion police departments around the country.

6.8SPC just needs to be viable.   10mm is viable.  300WM & 300WSM are viable.  7MAG is viable.   Even 38Super and 9x23 are viable.    Why?    Focussing on the ammunition side:

1. Loaded ammunition is available, even if it's in relatively small numbers and expensive (see 10mm),
2. Components and load data are available,
3. There is no risk of one vendor shutting down production (is that even true for the WSMs yet?)

As of today, the weaknesses in 6.8SPC relative to those criteria are: loaded ammo is all being send to the military; and there is currently only one source of 6.8SPC brass (Remington).  

Once the spec is available, there is no reason why another brass manufacturer or another ammo company (e.g. Black Hills) can't start cranking out ammo to meet demand.  

For lightweight deer guns, the 6.8SPC will shoot similar to the popular (for small people & kids) 257 Roberts, but in a shorter action.

-z
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:16:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Ok, then, who's going to sell me a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt...............anyone??................anyone??............................[crickets chirping]



Mongo, IM me if you really want one... and a mag or two maybe?


I DO, I DO
I got PRI and ARMS stuff just sittin, waitin for the 6.5 to become reasonably priced.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:22:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
LMT has said they'll run some 6.8SPC MRP barrels as soon as ammo is available in volume, and I'm pretty sure Bushmaster said the same for uppers.




Ii confirm this, I spoke to LMT about it last month, and that was their answer.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:58:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 12:03:56 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
Well... since I will probably only buy A,B,C,R,LMT,CMMG... who's going to be the first to release an UPPER?


My thoughts is as follows:

Amaralite - might do it but there pretty big into their AR10's

Bushmaster - has the money to do it... I would expect them to do it first

COLT - heck no... colt doesn't give a rat

RRA - maybe... i bet they'll come out with the rifles but not first

LMT - strong contender since they already make M4 feedramps...

CMMG - who knows :)

---

what do you think?  Is my 6.8 dream just a dream?  Or reality?



Olympic Arms, they do all the odd-duck calibers...

6.8 is going nowhere fast, don't expect a mainstream upper anymore than you see mainstream uppers in 5.7x28 FN.

Since it has been (allways was is more accurate, 5.56 is set in stone due to NATO) decided that the US military WILL NOT adopt 6.8 beyond SOCOM/special-purpose-issue, you will have a hard time selling it to anyone...

I don't see it taking root in LE, since the big 'deal' right now is to have 5.56mm weapons for their body armor penetration and safety of .223 for overpenetration issues. Depts that are dumping MP5s for M4s are not going to re-chamber to a new round when (a) 5.56 is available at discount from the Feds, and (b) 6.8 won't have the same 'wall-safe' charactaristics as .223

Especially since you can get about 95% of what 6.8 offers from 77gr OTM 5.56
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:56:45 AM EDT
Per the Rock River Arms rep (owner ????) at Trexpo, they have no plans to do a 6.8 until ammo is readily available.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:38:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I just don't want to pay a grand for their pitiful offerings of uppers.



Quoting myself to correct a misstatement on my part.  While perusing the Grendel sites, I realized that they have expanded their options of rail systems that they will install.  Prices are still a bit high, but I had to give credit to the Grendel people for listening to the customers and expanding their line.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:23:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:



Especially since you can get about 95% of what 6.8 offers from 77gr OTM 5.56




i don't agree
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 9:34:57 AM EDT
one of my buddy's who was in colts said he saw them running a whole bunch of 6.8. I don't know how true this is. But I know remington will be coming out with there own rifle shortly.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:10:19 PM EDT
www.competitionshootingsports.com has a 6.8SPC upper made by DPMS listed on their site right now.  Don't know if in stock, but it is listed, so they must be in the works if nothing else.  

Good shooting!!  



Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:31:28 PM EDT
B for Barret - they are making them- you can't go wrong there.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:21:56 AM EDT
Make mine a 6.5mm Grendel; M4orgery preferred
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:25:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By poppinsexz:
B for Barret - they are making them- you can't go wrong there.



Except how it hits your wallet.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 6:50:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
www.competitionshootingsports.com has a 6.8SPC upper made by DPMS listed on their site right now.  Don't know if in stock, but it is listed, so they must be in the works if nothing else.  

Good shooting!!  







you mean the 6.5mm Grendel either that or you have your websites mixed up.
Arne (Co-developer of the Grendel) owns and operates Comp shooting sports. Him selling the 6.8SPC would be equivelant to shitting in your own yard, lol.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 6:52:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Ok, then, who's going to sell me a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt...............anyone??................anyone??............................[crickets chirping]



Mongo, I feel for ya man. If you ever want to fly out and shoot mine I'll be more then happy to let you have at it. (you just have to pay for the ammo and your flight)
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 7:06:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Ok, then, who's going to sell me a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt...............anyone??................anyone??............................[crickets chirping]



Mongo, I feel for ya man. If you ever want to fly out and shoot mine I'll be more then happy to let you have at it. (you just have to pay for the ammo and your flight)



Thanks for the offer, I may have to take you up on that.  I figure if I keep whining like a little bitch, someone will give me a barrel just to shut me up.  I'm working on getting a setup right now, I just need to figure out what I want.  And, as you know, I have 100 brass on the way, bullets and dies will be enroute soon also.  Gotta research the powder I'll need.  The only problem then will be - where will I go to test the 1000-1400 yard capability of this round.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 7:12:14 PM EDT
do you want a copy of the factory load data?
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 8:03:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 2:10:13 AM EDT
TX65 is the competition shooting sports guy, right? I talked to him at Gunstock, he sure knows his stuff.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 3:02:53 AM EDT
correct
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 8:20:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 8:21:24 AM EDT by GunSlingAR]

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
www.competitionshootingsports.com has a 6.8SPC upper made by DPMS listed on their site right now.  Don't know if in stock, but it is listed, so they must be in the works if nothing else.  

Good shooting!!  







you mean the 6.5mm Grendel either that or you have your websites mixed up.
Arne (Co-developer of the Grendel) owns and operates Comp shooting sports. Him selling the 6.8SPC would be equivelant to shitting in your own yard, lol.



Nope.  It is on there.  I found it last night and thought the contradiction was kinda funny.
www.competitionshootingsports.com/catalogue/category2/category66

Edited to add:  Good price, too!
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 8:23:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunSlingAR:
Nope.  It is on there.  I found it last night and thought the contradiction was kinda funny.
www.competitionshootingsports.com/catalogue/category2/category66

Edited to add:  Good price, too!




LMFAO, just saw it.... sorry for doubting you.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:48:43 PM EDT
Just because he sells it doesn't mean he has to own one.  

Its not personal, its just business.....  
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:22:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Who cares, you can't get ammo for it anyway.

I doubt ABC will bother with it until there's ammo on the shelf at wal mart for it. At this point it makes 50 beowulf look like 308



You can't get ammo for the 6.8 SPC but there is plenty available for the 6.5 Grendel.

Plus Lapua just sent 250,000 pieces of 6.5 Grendel brass to Alexander Arms with 250,000 more pieces on the way!
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 4:35:10 AM EDT
Remington 6.8SPC ammo will be available within the very near future. We already have price sheets on it, and the rep says to expect deliveries shortly.



PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
6.8mm Rem. SPC

Index No. Cartridge Type Wt. (grs) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
R68R1 Remington® Express® 115 Open Tip Match 9 1/2 0.340
R68R2 Remington® Express® 115 Metal Case 9 1/2 0.325
RM68R1 Remington® Express® 115 Boat Tail Hollow Point Match 9 1/2 0.340
R68R1 Remington® Express® 115 Open Tip Match 9 1/2 0.340
R68R2 Remington® Express® 115 Metal Case 9 1/2 0.325
RM68R1 Remington® Express® 115 Boat Tail Hollow Point Match 9 1/2 0.340
PRC68R4 Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 115 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® Ultra 9 1/2 0.295

VELOCITY (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2800 2535 2285 2049 1828 1625
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2800 2523 2262 2017 1789 1580
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2800 2535 2285 2049 1828 1625
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2800 2535 2285 2049 1828 1625
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2800 2523 2262 2017 1789 1580
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2800 2535 2285 2049 1828 1625
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 115 PSP CLU 2775 2472 2190 1926 1683 1467

ENERGY (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2002 1641 1333 1072 853 674
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2002 1625 1307 1039 817 638
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2002 1641 1333 1072 853 674
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2002 1641 1333 1072 853 674
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2002 1625 1307 1039 817 638
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2002 1641 1333 1072 853 674
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 115 PSP CLU 1966 1561 1224 947 723 549

SHORT-RANGE¹ TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
Remington® Express® 115 MC 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.4 -12.3
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
Remington® Express® 115 MC 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.4 -12.3
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 115 PSP CLU 0.3 0.9 zero -2.5 -6.8 -13.1

LONG-RANGE² TRAJECTORY*
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 -25.6 -53.0
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2.0 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.8 -26.2 -54.5
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 -25.6 -53.0
Remington® Express® 115 OTM 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 -25.6 -53.0
Remington® Express® 115 MC 2.0 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.8 -26.2 -54.5
Remington® Express® 115 BT HPM 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 -25.6 -53.0
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 115 PSP CLU 2.1 1.9 zero -3.7 -9.4 -28.2 -59.4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:  These ballistics reflected a test barrel length of 24" except those for 30 Carbine and 44 Remington Magnum which are 20" barrels.
 Specifications are nominal. Ballistics figures established in test barrels. Individual rifles may vary from test barrel results.
 “zero” indicates yardage at which rifle was sighted in.
* Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.
1 Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
2 Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
† 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington are interchangeable.
‡ 6mm Remington and 244 Remington are interchangeable.





Lonny
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 6:43:02 AM EDT
Only 115 gr being offered?

I've heard from most 6.8 SPC owners velocities of 2700 fps instead of the 2800 originally claimed by Remington.  Any other owners have velocity data to share??
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:34:02 AM EDT
Geez, do we have to go over this AGAIN?

First of all, how many people currently handloading have 24" barrels?  None that I've heard of.

Second of all, it's well known that currently available commercial powders cannot reach what the loads in development can.   People with access to them tell me they're running 2800++fps from 18" barrels.  

By the way, what kind of velocity can 6.5 Grendel get from 12, 16, and 18" barrels?

-z
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 9:00:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=600

Good point



Isn't this the same web site the announced to the world that the Marine Corps bought the Glock 37 in .45 GAP as their new sidearm?

I don't believe anything on the internet until I can verify it.


Link Posted: 1/11/2005 10:02:58 AM EDT
Saw a complete M468 and ammo in a gun store yesterday.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:59:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:29:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 6:59:07 AM EDT by Autobahndriver]

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Geez, do we have to go over this AGAIN?

First of all, how many people currently handloading have 24" barrels?  None that I've heard of.

Second of all, it's well known that currently available commercial powders cannot reach what the loads in development can.   People with access to them tell me they're running 2800++fps from 18" barrels.  

By the way, what kind of velocity can 6.5 Grendel get from 12, 16, and 18" barrels?

-z



From Infantry Magazine - this data from 14.5" barrel:

(note the retained velocity of the 6.5 Grendel rounds at 100meters and longer -
how many things are you going to shoot at muzzle distance??? )


Velocity(ft/sec)--14.5"barrel-- Range(meters)

Cartridge / Bullet  ------  0      100    300

5.56x45mm   62gr  ---  2750   2408   1802
5.56x45mm   77gr  ---  2500   2245   1782
6x45mm      87gr  ------  2500   2254   1806
6x41mm      90gr  ------  2450   2232   1830
6.8x43mm    115gr  --- 2600   2323   1822
6.5x38mm    108gr ---  2600   2401   2030
6.5x38mm    123gr  --- 2450   2282   1965
7.62x51mm   147gr --  2500   2279   1870

Link Posted: 1/12/2005 8:14:06 AM EDT
Thanks for posting that!

Do those numbers jive with the reload data you've got?
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