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Posted: 2/16/2006 6:11:26 AM EDT
No, I don't hunt deer with an AR. My m4gery is my bug out gun, and would have to double for game should the need arise. I'd like to have a couple of mags with rounds suitable (as much as can be) that would most effectively drop a deer. I understand shot placement and so forth, but want to be sure of proper penetration and expansion. I use a .270 Win for deer, got four this year!

BTW, how well do ARs feed soft points? My M4gery does not have feed ramps.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:13:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 6:13:44 AM EDT by Hokie]

Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
No, I don't hunt deer with an AR. My m4gery is my bug out gun, and would have to double for game should the need arise. I'd like to have a couple of mags with rounds suitable (as much as can be) that would most effectively drop a deer. I understand shot placement and so forth, but want to be sure of proper penetration and expansion. I use a .270 Win for deer, got four this year!

BTW, how well do ARs feed soft points? My M4gery does not have feed ramps.

Thanks.



All hail the 270!!!!

They feed soft points just fine in my experience...a nice 62 or 69 grain bullet should do nicely.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:19:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
No, I don't hunt deer with an AR. My m4gery is my bug out gun, and would have to double for game should the need arise. I'd like to have a couple of mags with rounds suitable (as much as can be) that would most effectively drop a deer. I understand shot placement and so forth, but want to be sure of proper penetration and expansion. I use a .270 Win for deer, got four this year!

BTW, how well do ARs feed soft points? My M4gery does not have feed ramps.

Thanks.



All hail the 270!!!!


+1 *If* you must use the AR to shoot deer stick with Winchester Power-points or Nosler partitions.

For white-tailed deer, mule deer, and antelope you won't find a gun more better suited than the .270. Mine has been responsible for 20+ kills. I lost 2 deer due to poor hits (my fault)
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:08:00 AM EDT
I hunt whitetails, but definitely found the limitations of a .270. Wished I had brought my SKS along.

I got three in two hours, two at 10-15 yards and one at 20 yards, and a follow up on him at about 75 yards. The two close in does at the 10-15 yard range, the rounds just passed too quickly through them, I think a slower moving round would have been more effective, more time to open up. Plus a scope on a walking deer at 10 yards is not easy.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:18:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 7:19:27 AM EDT by Hokie]

Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
I hunt whitetails, but definitely found the limitations of a .270. Wished I had brought my SKS along.

I got three in two hours, two at 10-15 yards and one at 20 yards, and a follow up on him at about 75 yards. The two close in does at the 10-15 yard range, the rounds just passed too quickly through them, I think a slower moving round would have been more effective, more time to open up. Plus a scope on a walking deer at 10 yards is not easy.



I use a Trijicon 3X9 Accupoint to take advantage of the BAC for up close (holy smokes there's a deer!) shots. Re: bullet selection, I find the 150 grain core lokts do a great job of expanding and take a little speed off the cartridge.

The benefits of the 270 shine outside of 50 yards. For up close, I found the solution in bullet selection. YMMV.

FWIW, when I'm hunting brush areas or thick wood, I carry a Marlin 44mag!

I apologize if I'm helping steer your thread in another direction, I know it's about AR bullet selection.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:55:04 AM EDT
No sweat, hokie. I have used the 150 gr core-lokts, and have had great success with Win 130 gr black talon (or whatever the PC version is). The problem where I hunt is that it can go from dense woods to open fields in an instant. I hunt northern MO and it is rolling hills, heavy woods and crop land/pastures. A .270 or 06 work quite well all around, but those up close shots I wished I'd had a Marlin 1895, .45-70 would do the trick. I think next time I will take SKS and sit on the trail where I saw them all
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:58:57 AM EDT
Are the 64gr Winchester Power Points still available? That used to be the preffered round.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:01:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Are the 64gr Winchester Power Points still available? That used to be the preffered round.



I've got some to sell if you need any.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:08:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By billclo:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Are the 64gr Winchester Power Points still available? That used to be the preffered round.



I've got some to sell if you need any.



Thank Bill, but I've still got a few left in a box I purchase a few years ago . Tough stuff to find, I had to travel all the way to CT to get it.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:25:54 AM EDT
your 68 gr HPBT will do well on deer also, but I would go with winchester wester 64 gr power point.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:55:45 AM EDT
Ah, if you are talking about shooting a deer for foor when Red Dawn plays out for real, just use whatever you are carrying for your combat load. It should be able to kill a deer dead.

Now if I was going to use my Ar for hunting when the sky hasn't fallen, I would be using the 64 gr Win PP.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:10:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
No, I don't hunt deer with an AR. My m4gery is my bug out gun, and would have to double for game should the need arise. I'd like to have a couple of mags with rounds suitable (as much as can be) that would most effectively drop a deer. I understand shot placement and so forth, but want to be sure of proper penetration and expansion. I use a .270 Win for deer, got four this year!how
Thanks.



All hail the 270!!!!hail.gif


+1 *If* you must use the AR to shoot deer stick with Winchester Power-points or Nosler partitions.

For white-tailed deer, mule deer, and antelope you won't find a gun more better suited than the .270. Mine has been responsible for 20+ kills. I lost 2 deer due to poor hits (my fault)



I don't know, my remington 700P in 7MM Rem mag will touch game out quite a bit farther than a .270. Prety much if it walks and breaths on planet earth the 7mm Mag can kill it. Got ot love it although I am real excited about taking my new LB M4 prarie dog hunting in SD this summer since the 7mm is no where near as cheap to shoot. AR's are a blast and I never seem to get a sore shoulder after putting a couple hundred rounds through one.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:25:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By combatvet1:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By Ronnoc:
No, I don't hunt deer with an AR. My m4gery is my bug out gun, and would have to double for game should the need arise. I'd like to have a couple of mags with rounds suitable (as much as can be) that would most effectively drop a deer. I understand shot placement and so forth, but want to be sure of proper penetration and expansion. I use a .270 Win for deer, got four this year!

BTW, how well do ARs feed soft points? My M4gery does not have feed ramps.

Thanks.



All hail the 270!!!!


+1 *If* you must use the AR to shoot deer stick with Winchester Power-points or Nosler partitions.

For white-tailed deer, mule deer, and antelope you won't find a gun more better suited than the .270. Mine has been responsible for 20+ kills. I lost 2 deer due to poor hits (my fault)



I don't know, my remington 700P in 7MM Rem mag will touch game out quite a bit farther than a .270. Prety much if it walks and breaths on planet earth the 7mm Mag can kill it.

The .270 and 7mm Remington are not much different. In fact at 500 yards there is only a 14ft-lbs of energy difference for the 140 grain bullets AND when you compair the 150's in some cases the .270 will have more energy than the 7mm.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:57:17 PM EDT
Ok guys I know alot of people look down on a 223 used for a deer cartridge but I am here to tell you I have seen my 14 yr old son ( shot his first deer at 8 yrs old) take deer from 50-300 yds and drop them as fast as any big caliber out there. The key to any clean kill is shot placement( one shot one kill )is what I have tought him from the time he started pulling the trigger. I have seen deer run 300yds or more shot with an 06 right threw the heart, but you shoot him with a 223 same place with hollow points he will run 20 yds and fall over because eveything inside the chest cavity is jelly where the big guns go straight threw. This year we used FEDERAL 55gr NOSLER BALLISTIC TIPS at 90 yds my son shot the deer in the neck and it left a hole the size of a softball,needless to say we didn't have to track that one. So I would say that any 55gr hollow point or bigger fired from 223 is a great bullet for deer hunting. Just remember pick your shots (one shot one kill)
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:00:41 PM EDT
Use a .308 AR
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:33:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:44:41 PM EDT
+1 on the 60 gr. Nosler Partition and 64 gr. Powerpoint
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:45:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:
Most 140gr and heavier bullets won't expand fast enough in deer-sized animals; they are for elk or other larger game.

-Troy

Nosler ballistic tips will.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:00:23 PM EDT
Troy, good list.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:20:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:

.223 - 64gr Winchester PowerPoints, 60gr Nosler Partitions, or 55gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw (Federal Premium load)

.270 - 130gr or 140gr Hornady SST, or most any SP of 130gr or less. Most 140gr and heavier bullets won't expand fast enough in deer-sized animals; they are for elk or other larger game.

-Troy



OK. Why arent the 75gr TAP or 75gr Black Hills HPBT included?? If they are the best rounds for man killing , then why are they not the preffered bullet for whitetail deer??
Just curious. I would like to know why.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:45:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:46:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:51:13 PM EDT
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:53:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By SRTM4:
OK. Why arent the 75gr TAP or 75gr Black Hills HPBT included?? If they are the best rounds for man killing , then why are they not the preffered bullet for whitetail deer??
Just curious. I would like to know why.



If you're just trying to KILL the deer, then they would be good choices. When you're trying to HUNT deer, though, the end goal is a bit different. When hunting, you usually don't want to destroy too much meat, or pepper that meat with bullet fragments. You also often want minimal damage to the hide.

As always, you can't select an appropriate bullet load without looking at (and understanding the nuances of) the APPLICATION.

-Troy



Thanks Troy. Makes perfect sense.
I was asking the question becasue my buddy just killed a 150 pound buck with some 75 grain balck hills. After hitting it in the neck, the deer ran a bout 40 yards but dropped dead after that. The bullet did exactly what you mentioned. It fragmented very well. It "Peppered" the meat pretty good. I was impressed to say the least. It also shattered some of the neck bone and pretty much stopped after that in the deers shoulder. None of the bullet exited the deer.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:12:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 8:13:24 PM EDT by JJREA]

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:47:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!



Actually the pistol does well with a bushnell 2x6 out to 200 yards with 200 grain Hornady. You may want to do some reading before making comments. Is a pistol harder to shoot accurately at 100 yards. Sure thats why I use a rest. Have I hunted deer with a 223, yes a bolt action not an AR. Would I do it again? Not unless I had no other choices.

Weapons are tools. Sonetimes you can get away with using a flat tip screw driver on a phillips head screw but its not the right tool. Same thing does for the 223. Best left to critters the size of Coyote`s and smaller. Not bad for the human varmits either.
and smaller.

The facts remains your using a varmit round for big game. Nothing you can say changes that.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:55:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!



Actually the pistol does well with a bushnell 2x6 out to 200 yards with 200 grain Hornady. You may want to do some reading before making comments. Is a pistol harder to shoot accurately at 100 yards. Sure thats why I use a rest. Have I hunted deer with a 223, yes a bolt action not an AR. Would I do it again? Not unless I had no other choices.

Weapons are tools. Sonetimes you can get away with using a flat tip screw driver on a phillips head screw but its not the right tool. Same thing does for the 223. Best left to critters the size of Coyote`s and smaller. Not bad for the human varmits either.
and smaller.

The facts remains your using a varmit round for big game. Nothing you can say changes that.



I don't carry a rest around with me in the woods. Maybe I should start.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:14:50 PM EDT
Although it costs as much or more than a decent bolt rifle, have you thought about getting another upper for your M4 in a "deer-appropriate" caliber? That's the choice I've made. I just don't have time to really master the AR and still practice adequately with the bolt gun. Hence the operating drill is the same for medium game (6.5mm Grendel), small game (CZ .22 upper), and HD (.223). It's a bit uncomfortable for some folks seeing a black rifle for game, but they'll get used to it over time.

I admit I haven't taken the Grendel out for deer yet (only javelina thus far, where it was a raging success), but there are good bullets out there if you roll your own -- also more factory loads by the day.

The 6.8 Rem looks like it would work well, too, though I have no experience with it.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:45:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!



Actually the pistol does well with a bushnell 2x6 out to 200 yards with 200 grain Hornady. You may want to do some reading before making comments. Is a pistol harder to shoot accurately at 100 yards. Sure thats why I use a rest. Have I hunted deer with a 223, yes a bolt action not an AR. Would I do it again? Not unless I had no other choices.

Weapons are tools. Sonetimes you can get away with using a flat tip screw driver on a phillips head screw but its not the right tool. Same thing does for the 223. Best left to critters the size of Coyote`s and smaller. Not bad for the human varmits either.
and smaller.

The facts remains your using a varmit round for big game. Nothing you can say changes that.



I don't carry a rest around with me in the woods. Maybe I should start.



To me its part of handgun hunting to take the best supported shot you can. A log is always a good rest. I never though it was a bad idea to take supported shots with a rifle when I could.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:35:13 AM EDT
i live in south georgia and have hunted deer with everything from 30-30 to 7mm mag. personally, if i were to use an AR i would definitely use a HP bullet. my favorite round of any i have used was a 120 gr. HP in my 7mm mag - small bullet, fantastic results. of course there's a lot of energy behind the mag. with the AR you will definitely get penetration - question is will there be enough "energy" upon impact to stop the deer. they can run forever with a hole in them.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:54:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:
Most 140gr and heavier bullets won't expand fast enough in deer-sized animals; they are for elk or other larger game.

-Troy

Nosler ballistic tips will.



Note that I said "most". And you just listed an exception (a good one too).

-Troy

Honestly I know a lot of people sware by the 130gr, but I have fallen in love with the 140's. They don't seem to group as well as the 130's in my particular rifle (about 1.25"@100 yards) but they seem to have good terminal performance. The Nosler ballistic tips and the Winchester Failsafe both seem to perform well from 20 yards out to 200. If I was elk hunting I would probably use a 140 Swift Scirocco or Nosler Partition.

Innovations in bullet construction over the past 10 years or so has allowed hunters to use smaller caliber rifles to take bigger game. I don't think 10 years ago we would be talking about using .223 to deer hunt with or the .270 as a good elk rifle. Controlled expansion bullets with bonded jackets have giving hunters the best selection today to match his rifle to the game he hunts. Years ago I would have considered buying a .300 Winmag for an elk hunt. Now I wouldn't have any concerns about the .270 when loaded with heavy well constructed bullets.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:32:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:
Most 140gr and heavier bullets won't expand fast enough in deer-sized animals; they are for elk or other larger game.

-Troy

Nosler ballistic tips will.



Note that I said "most". And you just listed an exception (a good one too).

-Troy

Honestly I know a lot of people sware by the 130gr, but I have fallen in love with the 140's. They don't seem to group as well as the 130's in my particular rifle (about 1.25"@100 yards) but they seem to have good terminal performance. The Nosler ballistic tips and the Winchester Failsafe both seem to perform well from 20 yards out to 200. If I was elk hunting I would probably use a 140 Swift Scirocco or Nosler Partition.

Innovations in bullet construction over the past 10 years or so has allowed hunters to use smaller caliber rifles to take bigger game. I don't think 10 years ago we would be talking about using .223 to deer hunt with or the .270 as a good elk rifle. Controlled expansion bullets with bonded jackets have giving hunters the best selection today to match his rifle to the game he hunts. Years ago I would have considered buying a .300 Winmag for an elk hunt. Now I wouldn't have any concerns about the .270 when loaded with heavy well constructed bullets.




That's my take on it as well. I think with the 270 it's ALL about bullet selection, but in doing so you get the flattest trajectory and maximum impact out of a cartridge that won't turn your target into hamburger.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:45:51 AM EDT
All the deer I have come accross during hunting season seem to like the 270
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 11:21:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!



Actually the pistol does well with a bushnell 2x6 out to 200 yards with 200 grain Hornady. You may want to do some reading before making comments. Is a pistol harder to shoot accurately at 100 yards. Sure thats why I use a rest. Have I hunted deer with a 223, yes a bolt action not an AR. Would I do it again? Not unless I had no other choices.

Weapons are tools. Sonetimes you can get away with using a flat tip screw driver on a phillips head screw but its not the right tool. Same thing does for the 223. Best left to critters the size of Coyote`s and smaller. Not bad for the human varmits either.
and smaller.

The facts remains your using a varmit round for big game. Nothing you can say changes that.



I don't carry a rest around with me in the woods. Maybe I should start.



To me its part of handgun hunting to take the best supported shot you can. A log is always a good rest. I never though it was a bad idea to take supported shots with a rifle when I could.



You're right. Except out of the 7 deer I've shot, I think only 2 have been from a rested position. When you're the youngest, you do alot of the driving!!!! I know I'm not guru but up here, the action is alot of the times fast and furious and close. There are times where you shoot one from a stand and some guys hunt that way. It just hasn't been the majority for me. Either way, the .223 works and there are many on here who do it every year.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:32:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By DonD:
Some states do not even allow the 223 for deer. There is a reason behind it. A check of Remingtons
ballistic`s chart shows it takes a 69 grain 223 bullet to maintain 1000 ft lbs at 100 yards. Can you lill a deer with the 223 the answer is yes. Would a sportmen do it. My answer is no. My 460 S&W pistol still has 1300 ft lbs at 100 yards. It would be a better choice.



What kind of groups do you get with your big pistola at 100 yards?? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot harder for anyone to put one down through the boiler room with a pistol than with an AR. Especially once you get past 100 yards. You guys crack me up, "bigger is better". People been killin deer effeciently with .223 for a long time. Long enough to prove that you have nothing to back up your theory.

Wisconsin allows, .223 but it has to be a soft point or a "bullet designed to expand". Therefore the 75's are legally a no no for us. Although it would be my first choice.

+1 to what colt100 said. Hey, for once we're not disagreeing. Well, these aren't garands!!!



Actually the pistol does well with a bushnell 2x6 out to 200 yards with 200 grain Hornady. You may want to do some reading before making comments. Is a pistol harder to shoot accurately at 100 yards. Sure thats why I use a rest. Have I hunted deer with a 223, yes a bolt action not an AR. Would I do it again? Not unless I had no other choices.

Weapons are tools. Sonetimes you can get away with using a flat tip screw driver on a phillips head screw but its not the right tool. Same thing does for the 223. Best left to critters the size of Coyote`s and smaller. Not bad for the human varmits either.
and smaller.

The facts remains your using a varmit round for big game. Nothing you can say changes that.



I don't carry a rest around with me in the woods. Maybe I should start.



To me its part of handgun hunting to take the best supported shot you can. A log is always a good rest. I never though it was a bad idea to take supported shots with a rifle when I could.



You're right. Except out of the 7 deer I've shot, I think only 2 have been from a rested position. When you're the youngest, you do alot of the driving!!!! I know I'm not guru but up here, the action is alot of the times fast and furious and close. There are times where you shoot one from a stand and some guys hunt that way. It just hasn't been the majority for me. Either way, the .223 works and there are many on here who do it every year.



I would venture to guess the number of people who use 223 for deer are small compared to other calibers. I have always thought the best decisions are made not to prove a point.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:59:16 AM EDT
Who said anything about proving a point. It actually works very well. Why do you need a .270 if it is capable to kill an animal 5 times the size of a deer at several hundred yards, like an Elk. Bullet construction does help things a bit, but there are alot of guys that have been using a regular ole soft point in 55 grains and swear by it. Jeff Hoffman from black hills has told me personally that he has used his 60 grain soft point load to take deer. And I'm talking about the regular ole 60 soft point, not the partition. And he said it worked very well. As does almost anyone else that uses the .223 for hunting deer. The traditional, larger caliber, bullet all the way through, isn't necessarily the only way to kill something quick. You can argue if you want but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:09:13 AM EDT
60Gn Hornady JSP
64Gn Win Power Point
64Gn Winchester Power Point plus
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 2:44:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 2:46:43 PM EDT by loonybin]

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:

.223 - 64gr Winchester PowerPoints, 60gr Nosler Partitions, or 55gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw (Federal Premium load)

-Troy



Don't forget Black Hills 68gr. BTHP. Took my deer at about 85-100yds with one. Shredded lung and exited, blowing out the opposite shoulder ball joint. Deer went about 40yds.

eta: works really well on two-legged critters, too, so it might be a good bug-out round.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:36:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:01:40 PM EDT
Wisconsin Cartridge 55 gr. soft points work on coyotes and deer just fine. The hunter has the responsibility to make a clean kill. If you can't hit the target, don't blame the caliber.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/doba76/BuckwithCoyotesAss.jpg
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:51:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 6:52:45 PM EDT by loonybin]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By loonybin:

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:

.223 - 64gr Winchester PowerPoints, 60gr Nosler Partitions, or 55gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw (Federal Premium load)

-Troy



Don't forget Black Hills 68gr. BTHP.



Didn't read the whole thread, did you?

-Troy



Actually, yes I did. Which part are you assuming I missed -- this part?

If you're just trying to KILL the deer, then they would be good choices. When you're trying to HUNT deer, though, the end goal is a bit different. When hunting, you usually don't want to destroy too much meat, or pepper that meat with bullet fragments. You also often want minimal damage to the hide.

I used the only rifle I own, and I barely lost any meat. The round hit a rib, fragmented inside the chest cavity, hit another rib on the way out, and left a hole about the size of my thumb coming out the other side and through the shoulder. The meat was not peppered with bullet fragments at all, and the amount of meat I lost was enough to make 4 or 5 strips of jerky. Had I placed the shot exactly where I wanted it, the round would have done it's fragmenting inside the heart/lung area and may not have even exited. I wish I hadn't lost the pictures I took of the wounds. Less damage done than to the many deer my f-i-l shot with his .308.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:09:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
For deer:

.223 - 64gr Winchester PowerPoints, 60gr Nosler Partitions, or 55gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw (Federal Premium load)

.270 - 130gr or 140gr Hornady SST, or most any SP of 130gr or less. Most 140gr and heavier bullets won't expand fast enough in deer-sized animals; they are for elk or other larger game.

-Troy



In general you are correct but I love the 150 grain Sierra GameKings for deer, pigs and bear in my .270.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:23:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 5:55:13 PM EDT by DonD]

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Who said anything about proving a point. It actually works very well. Why do you need a .270 if it is capable to kill an animal 5 times the size of a deer at several hundred yards, like an Elk. Bullet construction does help things a bit, but there are alot of guys that have been using a regular ole soft point in 55 grains and swear by it. Jeff Hoffman from black hills has told me personally that he has used his 60 grain soft point load to take deer. And I'm talking about the regular ole 60 soft point, not the partition. And he said it worked very well. As does almost anyone else that uses the .223 for hunting deer. The traditional, larger caliber, bullet all the way through, isn't necessarily the only way to kill something quick. You can argue if you want but we'll just have to agree to disagree.



You use a 270 because its a deer caliber. I like the 7mm-08 myself. Sounds like the Winchester ammo selection chart was just made for you. You need help matching the caliber to the game. Also, if you have not taken a basic hunting course that teaches ethical hunting, check with your local NRA to enroll.
If you have any friends who think like you take them with you.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:35:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Who said anything about proving a point. It actually works very well. Why do you need a .270 if it is capable to kill an animal 5 times the size of a deer at several hundred yards, like an Elk. Bullet construction does help things a bit, but there are alot of guys that have been using a regular ole soft point in 55 grains and swear by it. Jeff Hoffman from black hills has told me personally that he has used his 60 grain soft point load to take deer. And I'm talking about the regular ole 60 soft point, not the partition. And he said it worked very well. As does almost anyone else that uses the .223 for hunting deer. The traditional, larger caliber, bullet all the way through, isn't necessarily the only way to kill something quick. You can argue if you want but we'll just have to agree to disagree.



You use a 270 because its a deer caliber. I like the 7mm-08 myself. Sounds like the Winchester ammo selection chart was just made for you. You need help matching the caliber to the game. Also, if you have not taken a basic hunting course that teaches ethical hunting, check with your local NRA to enroll.
If you ahev any friends who think like you take them with you.



My uncle and cousin and I have probably killed far more deer than you using "factory marked" varmint bullets. Like I said, you can argue, you can belittle, you can accuse me of being ignorant, you can tell me I'm not schooled enough, and you can call me unethical, but the fact of the matter is, you're wrong. And there is more than one way to skin a cat. Or kill a deer. Theory and traditional thinking is never at the mercy of experience. If what you use works for you, that's great. But I'm not sure why you don't open your eyes to the truth when it's right in front of you?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:31:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 5:35:03 PM EDT by DavidPennington]
I've taken several deer this year with a 14.5" M4 and Black Hills MK262 Mod 1 77gr OTM. All were one shot incapacitations (plus contact killing shots) or kills between 120-170 yards. It's all about shot placement. You have to be way more careful with a 5.56mm OTM load than you do with, say, a bonded .30 caliber round. With good shot placement the 5.56mm works great. You will end up passing up on some shots though.

My prefered 5.56/.223 loads would be, in rough order:

-Federal 62gr Tactical Bonded
-Federal 55gr Tactical Bonded
-anything bonded
-Win 64gr PP
-Black Hills or Hornady 75-77 gr OTMs
-M193
-M855

I think the heavy OTM loads are probably more dramatic killers due to violent fragmentation but the bonded type rounds are more reliable for less than great hits. Any of the above will work within their optimal expansion/fragmentation ranges and with solid hits. I wouldn't want to use M855 at 200 yard, for example but it would be fine at 50 yards.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:15:47 PM EDT
JJREA, Let me say first of all no one is trying to belittle anyone or say they are ignorant. If you took it that way then please forgive me. I post here to express different points of view on subjects I feel strongly about. I was not put on this earth to make another human being feel ignorant. I am done here. Have a nice day.



Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:52:52 PM EDT
Looks like the Nosler might do the trick.

www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/bullet_bone/Bullethitsbone.html
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:54:31 PM EDT
I know someone who used to hunt with a .223 target rifle and, being an excellent shot he killed several deer, despite the harassment he got from the rest of us. You can kill a person with a .22 rifle, but would you carry that into combat? Is that your home defense handgun?

He switched guns after his "kill shot" went awry and both the quick followup shots/hits failed to bring the deer down. We followed the trail as best we could but never found the deer. There are more appropriate guns available. Why not use them.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:35:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ep_shooter:
He switched guns after his "kill shot" went awry and both the quick followup shots/hits failed to bring the deer down. We followed the trail as best we could but never found the deer. There are more appropriate guns available. Why not use them.



And deer have been lost that were shot with .243, .270, .308, .30-06...
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 12:08:25 PM EDT
I have available 12 gauge slug gun, and rifles in 7mm-08, .308, .300 Win Mag, .30-06

I use any of these before the .223 Rem. If I had to use my Ar I would use the 64 gn power points (I have them only because I bought a few boxes of them when a store went out of business)

I'm not saying a .223 won't work, it's just not in MY comfort zone to plan to do so.

But I might try it just once to see. I know one hunter who shot a nice 8 point buck in it's bed this year. It didn't get up from it's bed. (anecdotal I know)

SoS
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By loonybin:

Originally Posted By ep_shooter:
He switched guns after his "kill shot" went awry and both the quick followup shots/hits failed to bring the deer down. We followed the trail as best we could but never found the deer. There are more appropriate guns available. Why not use them.



And deer have been lost that were shot with .243, .270, .308, .30-06...




Yep, and I would further this buy saying a fragmenting bullet will do more damage if gut shot, than a heavier bullet that does not open up as quick and goes right through.
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