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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/10/2005 6:04:59 PM EDT
Thread title says it all:

Link Posted: 9/10/2005 6:12:00 PM EDT
DD and LaRue, IMHO. And the ARMS SIR, but I have other reasons to dislike that one.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 6:14:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
DD and LaRue, IMHO. And the ARMS SIR, but I have other reasons to dislike that one.



That's what I was hoping to hear.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:28:13 PM EDT
Grenadier Precision ARM-R (buy through LWRC), KAC's URX, YHM FF, POF Predator.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:30:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
Grenadier Precision ARM-R (buy through LWRC), KAC's URX, YHM FF, POF Predator.



I've got one of those already - not sure I'd mount a scope on it. To be honest, I like it so far - I really do - but I'm still not sure I'd use it for optics.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:31:50 PM EDT
Technically, wouldn't any FF rail be stable enough for optis mounting?

Not being a smartass, just thinking out loud.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:35:40 PM EDT
What's your gripe with the YHM? I am curious. They're on the budget end of things as far as I can tell. I'm not fond of the whole SIR approach.

Simon
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:47:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
What's your gripe with the YHM? I am curious. They're on the budget end of things as far as I can tell. I'm not fond of the whole SIR approach.

Simon



No gripe. I know some don't like 'em because the threads are fine-pitched. Mine hasn't budged, though.


I wish it WOULD budge....it's just a hair out of alignment - was like that when I bought it - and I'm going to have to buy the tool to remove it now that I've got an EoTech mounted; I can't mount the EoTech as far forward as I like because of the rail being misaligned.

But, honestly, I have no problems with the YHM FF rail.


Having said that, if it was as rugged as the others, the other guys would be out of business.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 8:56:07 PM EDT
Technically none.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 9:09:48 PM EDT
I like the SIR 50 bi-level C as it attaches to the top rail, and barrel nut, and it doesn't require anything to be removed but the plastic handguards. It is slim line and narrowest to hold I have messerd to date. I can put rails where and when I want to, and no covers required to keep from burning hands on hot alum., which I hate. Covers just make the weapon wider and also keep heat trapped, then they also get hot.
A lot of people put risers on or use high rings, I don't have to, as the SIR's already give me a solid plaform over the receiver to attach to, and it is perfect alignment with the receiver, and I can use lower more stable rings.
The gov't have chosen three hand guard systems to select from, and since KAC., ARMS, and D.D. were the ones selected as best meeting gov't needs, that where it might b a good place to start.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:05:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 5:05:35 AM EDT by mongo001]
Experience from field use shows that NO FF rails system, by itself, is a good mounting platform for optics.

Now if you bridge the receiver to the rail system, like the ARMS #38EX rails do or the SIR systems do, then it becomes more stable and trustworthy for optics.

For you average square range, bench bound shooter, mounting on a DD, LaRue or KAC would probably work, but if you ever have any SHTF dreams for the rifle, I wouldn't do it.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:52:22 AM EDT
Didn't the SEALS just conclude that optics did not belong on handguards?

But they should be okay for everything else: lights and even aiming lasers, because when you are using goggles and an IR laser, that ain't PRECISION work, you're hosing down the target...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:01:41 AM EDT
Hmmm, learn something new every day.

Thanks.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:43:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Didn't the SEALS just conclude that optics did not belong on handguards?

But they should be okay for everything else: lights and even aiming lasers, because when you are using goggles and an IR laser, that ain't PRECISION work, you're hosing down the target...



<---not a SEAL.

By the time *I* do something to knock a rail out of alignment, I'm in WAY over my head.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 12:34:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Didn't the SEALS just conclude that optics did not belong on handguards?

But they should be okay for everything else: lights and even aiming lasers, because when you are using goggles and an IR laser, that ain't PRECISION work, you're hosing down the target...[/quot

Lazers require very reliable foundations because they are placing where a bullet is to go, not a shot gun blast. Lasers have to be out front on the hand guard, or they would be blocked by a a sling, hand, sleeve, etc. Optics are placed a varying positions, including out on the rail, all depending on the shooter, mission, and other types of equipment. If you heard someone "said" that a spec ops group like the seals made such a conclusion, you can bet there is a lot more to it than announced, if it was announced in the first place, but if so, prob. out of context. Some rail hand guards don't work well for optic's some do. If you you a wide field of view because of multible targets, then out front gives an advantage in faster target aquesition.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 2:20:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Didn't the SEALS just conclude that optics did not belong on handguards?

But they should be okay for everything else: lights and even aiming lasers, because when you are using goggles and an IR laser, that ain't PRECISION work, you're hosing down the target...



<---not a SEAL.

By the time *I* do something to knock a rail out of alignment, I'm in WAY over my head.



FWIW, I've knocked two, not one, but two YHM FF rails out of alignment simply by torquing on a FVG. I would never mount optics on a FF tube. YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:26:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:29:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 3:30:59 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:39:32 PM EDT
I have also rotated my YHM just by pushing with one hand on the VFG and one on the receiver.

Great rails with some loctite and torque....still wouldnt mount an optic on it though
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:34:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:39:09 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:39:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:39:33 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:13:47 PM EDT
This is ARFCOM, cool matters.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:24:58 PM EDT
Locking onto the barrel nut may stop the rail from rotating, which is infrequent, but barrel nuts can also and do get loose once in awhile, to include from torquing vertical pistal grip use, so locking to the barrel nut is not fool proof, as Murphy is always watching
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:51:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:37:31 PM EDT
Maybe by the time I make my mind up exactly what I want, the LMT MRP will be down to a reasonable price, and I'll just go that route.....

As for the YHM rail coming loose,

1) I've tried - gonna have to buy a stupid wrench just to re-align it.
2) I don't like VFG's (I know, I know - blasphemy!)



Originally Posted By mongo001:
This is ARFCOM, cool matters.



I reserve the right to use that as a new sigline one of these days......
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:42:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As for the YHM rail coming loose,

1) I've tried - gonna have to buy a stupid wrench just to re-align it.



While it is an inexpensive rail system, it's fatal flaw is just that, it is prone to coming loose. Loctite will help, but God help you, should you ever want to get it off. Heat helps.......................lots of heat.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As for the YHM rail coming loose,

1) I've tried - gonna have to buy a stupid wrench just to re-align it.



While it is an inexpensive rail system, it's fatal flaw is just that, it is prone to coming loose. Loctite will help, but God help you, should you ever want to get it off. Heat helps.......................lots of heat.



I bought it (slightly) used.

I'm gonna be pissed if it's already loctited in place.

If it's not, it will be soon. No plans to do a lot of swapping on this upper - flash hider is pinned/welded anyway.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:34:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:39:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Maybe by the time I make my mind up exactly what I want, the LMT MRP will be down to a reasonable price, and I'll just go that route.....




Don't count on it, LMT invest a lot of money to make the fixtures to build the MRP, and the process is very involving. I think the price is reasonable for the amount of work involved.



I'm trying to turn out a few low profile gas blocks and to date I've got about 20 hours in the fixture alone and it's still not making gas blocks yet. Understand that I'm a CNC newb and this is my first fixture, but just to turn out a product, which will probably take about an hour to produce, I've got 20 hours into the fixture. 99% of the people don't see this aspect.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:45:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Maybe by the time I make my mind up exactly what I want, the LMT MRP will be down to a reasonable price, and I'll just go that route.....




Don't count on it, LMT invest a lot of money to make the fixtures to build the MRP, and the process is very involving. I think the price is reasonable for the amount of work involved.



I'm trying to turn out a few low profile gas blocks and to date I've got about 20 hours in the fixture alone and it's still not making gas blocks yet. Understand that I'm a CNC newb and this is my first fixture, but just to turn out a product, which will probably take about an hour to produce, I've got 20 hours into the fixture. 99% of the people don't see this aspect.



It was a joke, guys - I need an MRP like I need another hole in the head - it's an awesome design, but it's way beyond my needs, and I have NO problem with what it costs.

As I said elsewhere in another thread, I wouldn't do business at the margins most companies have.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:15:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 8:18:38 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:31:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 8:41:22 AM EDT by arowneragain]
edited on second thought...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:49:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:27:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Just re-read my post, and it was probably a bit more harsh sounding than I really intended.

I apologize if any offense was taken from it.

All I wanted to do was point out that I think the sights should be supported on a surface that is not going to move.



I agree - but pushing for new designs - or exploring the limitations of existing ones - is what keeps guys like you in business, right?

In all seriousness, I think that FOR MY PURPOSES (which are much lighter than the average soldier's...) a scope mounted on one of the better FF handguards would be able to hold a zero.

Sure, sling tension could hurt accuracy easily, HOWEVER if one was mindful to only use the forward optics under consistent conditions - i.e. only use it with the forend rested on a sandbag or on your hand as a buffer over a harder rest, with NO sling tension, then I think you could achieve passable results in the 250-to-500-yard zone, where no-magnification optics are beginning to be useless and maybe there is no better option available.


(And FWIW, I agree that many of us have way too much stuff hanging off our guns!)


Specifically, i was thinking of a 2 o'clock mount for a intermediate-eye-relief scope in the 2.5-4x-6x range.

True, such a setup would have limited use, but for the rare occassions when you had a partial view of a target at 300 yards and didn't want to chance a near miss with an EoTech, and no DM or SPR type rifle was available, I think it would be nice to have such an option - provided, of course, that one was aware that any odd pressure on the forend could result in a thrown shot.

With the existing products out there, sure, it's not a perfect idea - but products come from ideas.

Case in point:

I know I can easily hit a torso at 300 yards w/ an Eotech, provided that I have a high-contrast target in good light conditions.

Turn that torso 30 degrees, change lighting conditions a bit, or stand it behind a bush, and suddenly it's an impossible target to hit reliably. This is where a magnified optic could be handy, IMHO.

Keep in mind - I'm referring mainly to a rifle to be used as one-gun-does-all in case of SHTF, and/or occassional use in hunting/varmint dispatching.

I do NOT see dual optics as the next great thing in combat sight systems.

<---NOT a tactical type guy.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:00:16 PM EDT
not a rail pro like the rest of you...but aren't the YHM rails weaver spec and not picatinny?

...crawls back under rock
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:25:38 PM EDT
What about the TDI X6 , from TDI Arms .

I got a look at the system at a gun show last
weekend . It grips the barrel nut and the FSB .
I tried to flex the one they had mounted on a
dummy AR , and I couldn’t flex it at all with the
VFG they had mounted to it .

They wanted $250 for it , with the rail covers
but didn’t have any carbine length left , or I would
have bought one to try .

I still plan to get one , but it isn't high priority at the
moment since I have other goodies pending
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:25:12 AM EDT
The rail you've described is not free floating because it touches the fsb. If that doesn't matter to you, then go for it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
What about the TDI X6 , from TDI Arms .

I got a look at the system at a gun show last
weekend . It grips the barrel nut and the FSB .
I tried to flex the one they had mounted on a
dummy AR , and I couldn’t flex it at all with the
VFG they had mounted to it .

They wanted $250 for it , with the rail covers
but didn’t have any carbine length left , or I would
have bought one to try .

I still plan to get one , but it isn't high priority at the
moment since I have other goodies pending



Reardless of if you think you it flexed or not, it did and will affect the the POI and POA even more if its touching the FSB.

At 100+ yards, even a slight movement in millimeters for an optic could mean inches in movement at the POI. Which is what we are talking about.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:35:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 8:35:49 AM EDT by Dace]

Originally Posted By twl:
I always get a little chuckle when threads like these come up.

Let's go back to the reason why free float tubes were invented in the first place.

It was found that when pressure was placed on the handguard, the barrel flexed and changed point of impact when you used a receiver mounted optic.
So, the free float tube was invented so that it could take the pressure of a sling-up or a bipod, and even if it flexed, it didn't affect the barrel or the point of aim.

Now, we have people wanting to put optics on the item which is going to flex, because it is only anchored at one end. As such, it is defeating the entire reason for a free float tube.

By putting the optic on a free float tube, you return the situation to an inverse of the original, where the optic will now move, and the barrel will remain unmoved, when pressure is applied with a sling or bipod, or rest. Same thing with this cockamamie idea of putting front sights on the handguards.

I know some people think that their FF tube is soooo good that it can't flex. Keep telling yourself that.

Scopes belong on receivers. FF tubes are for taking pressure, and leaving the barrel unmoved. They are not for mounting sights.

Look, I'm all for making your gun look cool.
Just don't screw up the function with "cool" dress-up ideas.
If your accuracy requirements are very non-demanding, then you can do anything you want, because if you aren't concerned about hitting anything smaller than a barn door, there's no need to worry about it.


Sure, some are better at being rigid than others are.



Best post and explanation so far in this thread.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:56:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 9:28:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By chrome1:
What about the TDI X6 , from TDI Arms .




Get a Surefire, cheaper and better design.... for a non-free float style RAS.



I have a Surefire already . which is why I would like to try
the TDI and price really isn't an issue .
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 9:40:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
I always get a little chuckle when threads like these come up.

Let's go back to the reason why free float tubes were invented in the first place.

It was found that when pressure was placed on the handguard, the barrel flexed and changed point of impact when you used a receiver mounted optic.
So, the free float tube was invented so that it could take the pressure of a sling-up or a bipod, and even if it flexed, it didn't affect the barrel or the point of aim.

Now, we have people wanting to put optics on the item which is going to flex, because it is only anchored at one end. As such, it is defeating the entire reason for a free float tube.

By putting the optic on a free float tube, you return the situation to an inverse of the original, where the optic will now move, and the barrel will remain unmoved, when pressure is applied with a sling or bipod, or rest. Same thing with this cockamamie idea of putting front sights on the handguards.

I know some people think that their FF tube is soooo good that it can't flex. Keep telling yourself that.

Scopes belong on receivers. FF tubes are for taking pressure, and leaving the barrel unmoved. They are not for mounting sights.

Look, I'm all for making your gun look cool.
Just don't screw up the function with "cool" dress-up ideas.
If your accuracy requirements are very non-demanding, then you can do anything you want, because if you aren't concerned about hitting anything smaller than a barn door, there's no need to worry about it.


Sure, some are better at being rigid than others are.



Funny. A good FF tube won't flex. It was not made to "take pressure," but rather the shield the barrel from having to take pressure. I don't believe in mounting optics to a FF tubes, just BUIS and IR lasers.

FF tubes are also lighter and stronger. They don't have many downsides.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 9:42:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:07:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:51:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I would look at the MI rail LONG before I looked at the TDI rail.

C4



MI ????
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:14:24 PM EDT
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