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Posted: 9/6/2005 11:44:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 9:50:22 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
I'm in the market to have a RECCE upper put together. Originally, I was gonna go with Denny's barrel www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=239897 , in conjunction with CMT upper receiver, LaRue 12" FF and other goodies to round out the package; However, I just came across this: www.jnrifleworks.com/cgi-bin/cart2/display.cgi?cat1=16, which is pretty much what I have in mind. I've heard A LOT of good stuff about these barrels, but the poly rifling concerns me a bit, as I don't know how much more difficult it'll make the clean up process.

So, my question is this: Which barrel would you guys get: 1) Denny'sOPERATOR barrel, 2) a Noveske RECON barrel or 3) a Lilja Dev Group barrel? Of course, Denny's barrel is the oddball barrel of the group, as his barrel was made to take abuse and not meant to be a tack driver (but I wonder how well it'll do in the accuracy department as it is a rock creek barrel).

Weight is another factor, so knowing the weight of all three would be nice.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:57:09 AM EDT
FWIW, I really like my Lilja.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:00:11 AM EDT
heh... your in search of pretty much the same thing i am...

however i'm going to try to help you get the barrel you want. You say you are getting this barrel for a RECCE build? What does a RECCE mean to you?

Do you want a VERY accurate subMOA gun.... do you want a barrel that can take more abuse than normal? (longer life)....

At what ranges will you be shooting your rifle... what optic are you going to place on the weapon system?

after doing research up the wazzo... i find that optics and barrels are hand and hand on the AR system.... usally the optics dictate how much accuracy you want...

maybe you just want to own anything from 0-200m.... or maybe you want to just own 75m-600m... its your call...

---

also maybe think about what is practical... do you really need an AR that can fire head shots at 500m? Maybe for a fun gun.... but for more of a practical sense... it seems that most professionals that go with an AR need a small, light, reliable and carefree semi-auto system... accuarcy is important... but not 100% required (for most applications)...

anyways... as a sum up... don't get lossed in wondering which barrel/option you want... figure out what you want to do with your gun... then design the barrel/optics/accessories... around that point...

good day! and let me know what your thinking!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:15:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:24:48 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
also maybe think about what is practical... do you really need an AR that can fire head shots at 500m? Maybe for a fun gun.... but for more of a practical sense... it seems that most professionals that go with an AR need a small, light, reliable and carefree semi-auto system... accuarcy is important... but not 100% required (for most applications)...



No flame here, just sharing some observations:

Shooting long range with a carbine is very challenging, which to me, is fun. I shoot my RECCE at 600yds a few times a year and I like that alot. With me behind it, it is a 1.5-2MOA rifle with me laying prone supported with a bipod only (wind is a HUGE factor on light weight bullets, which you don't see as much at shorter distances). While not a head shot by any means, it is pretty much MO-MAN. Good enough for me.

For real operators, the mission defines the gear, not the way stuff goes on around here. If the mission requires a precision carbine to support ops, the RECCE concept has its place. I'm having trouble with the concept of any one gun being mission capable from CQB to 600yds+. I don't think that particular rifle exists. YMMV.

Added a pic (sorry, it's huge):

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:24:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:25:57 AM EDT by jar3ds]
no offense taken, thats why i asked exactly what a RECCE meant to him... but 0-600m gun? something like this:

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:50:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:52:46 AM EDT by urbankaos04]
jar3ds:

I envision my RECCE build as being the ultimate GP rifle. A rifle that has the ability to be utlized from 0-500 m, but with significantly more precision. As for optics, it appears that the S&B Short Dot would be suitable for such an application. Or is this asking too much?

Since this will NOT be a full auto firearm all three barrels should be able to withstand protracted semi-auto fire. From what I understand, Denny's barrel was meant to take the abuse encountered with full auto fire, but being a Rock Creek barrel I imagine accuracy will be decent.

I totally understand your statement about the mission driving the setup of the rifle, but like I stated above, I'm looking to put together a very flexible GP rifle, albeit somewhat specialized at the same time, no? In addition I would like to have a robust and reliable system, which can be done as evidenced by MSTN's builds which are being used by real-deal, HSLD guys.

I'm not a military type, just an AR enthusiast that happens to now have the extra funds necessary to explore a more serious build.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:56:50 AM EDT
get them all!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:11:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 8:12:49 AM EDT by sapper326]

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
jar3ds:

I'm not a military type, just an AR enthusiast that happens to now have the extra funds necessary to explore a more serious build.


Ah the wonderful Black Rifle Sickness! I too have this and also have been looking for the ultimate GP rifle. I tend to agree with Mongo in that I have yet to find one out there and dont think it exists. I just completed a build that is Recce'ish and it is sweet from 0-300 yds. At 200 I avrg a 1.5 moa consistantly with it but it quickly drops of after that. I used one of the Giffman buy barrels but have now been looking toward the "Operator" as a possible replacement or future build. As far as long range goes, I bought an upper from ADCO a ways back and that thing is a tac driver all the way out to 600yds. as far as CQB in a situation where you are being attacked by zombies from all sides, I think it would still remain the shiznit but im always afraid of over heating SS barrels, I mean you spend the money on a uber accurate barrel and you want it to stay that way for a long time. Just my .02
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:15:48 AM EDT
I used a Dennys Mid length. A specter block and a rifle length FF handguard. I dont have any Irons but it shoots 1 to 3 MOA with wolf (Flyers Disclaimer). I guess without the front block/sight it only qualifys as a plain Middy.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:11:42 AM EDT
Military usage means RECCE is reconnaissance, which to me would mean a short barrel. You're sneaking and peeking, and do not normally want to do any shooting. Light weight, and handy would be a good pick. Then again, here, RECCE may mean something else!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:27:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
jar3ds:

I envision my RECCE build as being the ultimate GP rifle. A rifle that has the ability to be utlized from 0-500 m, but with significantly more precision. As for optics, it appears that the S&B Short Dot would be suitable for such an application. Or is this asking too much?

Since this will NOT be a full auto firearm all three barrels should be able to withstand protracted semi-auto fire. From what I understand, Denny's barrel was meant to take the abuse encountered with full auto fire, but being a Rock Creek barrel I imagine accuracy will be decent.

I totally understand your statement about the mission driving the setup of the rifle, but like I stated above, I'm looking to put together a very flexible GP rifle, albeit somewhat specialized at the same time, no? In addition I would like to have a robust and reliable system, which can be done as evidenced by MSTN's builds which are being used by real-deal, HSLD guys.

I'm not a military type, just an AR enthusiast that happens to now have the extra funds necessary to explore a more serious build.



now i don't have much experience with the S&B but i don't think its precise enough to deliever sort of what your thinking... i'd say a ta11 or ta31 would allow you to make 'crosshair' type shots at 500m... yet still be fast at close quarters.... but really... if you want accurate... your going to need a vari-magnifiied optic...

i would really ask yourself... is:


A rifle that has the ability to be utlized from 0-500 m, but with significantly more precision.


what is significantly more precision? try to quantify this... is it 2moa @ 500m? etc... this will determine weight of barrel, length, profile, and material.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 4:53:52 PM EDT
My question is what barrel length? If you go to short and pay premium for a good barrel that seems a waste of money. Too long and youve just ruined the whole Idea!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:19:40 PM EDT
I used ADCO's 16" SPR contour barrel with midlength gas and had Steve flute it between the barrel nut and gas block. It is uses a WOA blank with a Wylde chamber. It is a tack driver.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:36:11 PM EDT
i have dennys recon barrel and couldnt have asked for better.

great handling and great accuracy
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:44:14 PM EDT
Noveske Afghan with a Short Dot.

If you want a rifle for 0-600 meters, this is it. The Short Dot has scored kills to 800 meters.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jar3ds:

what is significantly more precision? try to quantify this... is it 2moa @ 500m? etc... this will determine weight of barrel, length, profile, and material.



Hmm, I gotta think about this more...
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:46:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Noveske Afghan with a Short Dot.

If you want a rifle for 0-600 meters, this is it. The Short Dot has scored kills to 800 meters.



Thanks for the information.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:55:36 PM EDT
The Noveske 16.1" Recon barrel is at the top of my list as of now because the supply of Lilja barrels are getting low.


Noveske Rifleworks barrel webpage link
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 10:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:
The Noveske 16.1" Recon barrel is at the top of my list as of now because the supply of Lilja barrels are getting low.


Noveske Rifleworks barrel webpage link



this is definately on my list as well along with the pac-nor bbl. steve@adco offers
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:46:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
now i don't have much experience with the S&B but i don't think its precise enough to deliever sort of what your thinking... i'd say a ta11 or ta31 would allow you to make 'crosshair' type shots at 500m... yet still be fast at close quarters.... but really... if you want accurate... your going to need a vari-magnifiied optic...

i would really ask yourself... is:


A rifle that has the ability to be utlized from 0-500 m, but with significantly more precision.


what is significantly more precision? try to quantify this... is it 2moa @ 500m? etc... this will determine weight of barrel, length, profile, and material.



No offense, but I think you misunderstand what the short dot is. Its a 1-4x FFP variable. Its like an aimpoint when you have the dot on and the mag set to 1x, and like an ACOG at 4x, but with mil marks instead of BDC stadia lines. You can use it in 4x with the dot on or off.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:17:02 AM EDT
Combat_Jack: Seems like you and I are thinking along the same lines based on your posts.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:29:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Combat_Jack: Seems like you and I are thinking along the same lines based on your posts.



16" Noveske RECON with a 12" LaRue rail, M93 or SOPMOD stock, MIAD, CMC trigger, Tangodown VFG, Surefire M962,Troy flip sights and a Short Dot in a LaRue mount.

My plan for ONE AR. I don't need three--I'm selling the ones I have now to fund this one without dipping into my AI fund This one should handle everything I need to do from the muzzle to 600m, if I can learn to dope wind (I'd better get good at it!). Heavy beotch though, probably 11 pounds or more fully dressed.

Gonna put it all together when I go home for the holidays.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:38:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:33:30 AM EDT




Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:45:33 AM EDT
I ended up getting a Noveske Recon barrel.

Looks good. Can't wait to try it out at the range. Except I lost the Gas tube roll pin. Otherwise its done. After I get it I'll post pics and stats.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:16:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:33:32 AM EDT


I vote for the Krieger "recce" barrels that JTAC is selling. The one I have can SHOOT!




Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:56:58 PM EDT
Would the Noveske 14.5" barrel considered be too short for the RECCE?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 1:08:48 PM EDT
I dunno...Denny's is a Mike Rock with Cr lining..including chamber...
I would not want to miss out on this combo...

But given your other choices...I don't see how you could go wrong on any of them- really...

imo
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 1:17:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Knuckleduster:
Would the Noveske 14.5" barrel considered be too short for the RECCE?



14.5 is the best length for a Recce, IMO.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:00:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 5:05:51 PM EDT by urbankaos04]

Originally Posted By MSTN:

WHEN I GET HOME THIS WEEKEND, I'LL WEIGH BOTH BARRELS.


WES GRANT
BARREL SNOB
M.S.T.N.



THANKS!

Denny's OPERATOR BARREL is weighing in "At 2.5 lbs including A2 front sight, barrel nut and F/H."
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:03:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
now i don't have much experience with the S&B but i don't think its precise enough to deliever sort of what your thinking... i'd say a ta11 or ta31 would allow you to make 'crosshair' type shots at 500m... yet still be fast at close quarters.... but really... if you want accurate... your going to need a vari-magnifiied optic...

i would really ask yourself... is:


A rifle that has the ability to be utlized from 0-500 m, but with significantly more precision.


what is significantly more precision? try to quantify this... is it 2moa @ 500m? etc... this will determine weight of barrel, length, profile, and material.



No offense, but I think you misunderstand what the short dot is. Its a 1-4x FFP variable. Its like an aimpoint when you have the dot on and the mag set to 1x, and like an ACOG at 4x, but with mil marks instead of BDC stadia lines. You can use it in 4x with the dot on or off.



short dots 1.1-4x. mine is sitting on a M4 upper until my Afghan arrives.

"The S&B 1.1-4X CQB is flat out the absolute best tactical optic available, bar none. Period." -Pat Rogers
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 5:07:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AShooter:

I vote for the Krieger "recce" barrels that JTAC is selling. The one I have can SHOOT!


img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/jtacsupply/Customer_Target.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/jtacsupply/Customer_recce2.jpg




Now, that is the kind of accuracy I'm looking for!
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:01:05 PM EDT
i think the S&B 1.1-4X CQB would do quite well with the larue SPR-E model.. am i wrong?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:22:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
i think the S&B 1.1-4X CQB would do quite well with the larue SPR-E model.. am i wrong?


SPR or SPR-E. depending on your cheekweld, stock position and size. the reg SPR gives me perfect eye relief.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:12:54 PM EDT
Wheres the best place to get a S&B short dot? Whats the going price?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:14:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Knuckleduster:
Wheres the best place to get a S&B short dot? Whats the going price?



Premier Reticles sells them... i think they want 1800.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 10:22:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Knuckleduster:
Wheres the best place to get a S&B short dot? Whats the going price?



Premier Reticles sells them... i think they want 1800.



And that is a good price as I was quoted an LE/Active Duty Military price of $1850.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 10:30:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Knuckleduster:
Wheres the best place to get a S&B short dot? Whats the going price?



Premier Reticles sells them... i think they want 1800.



And that is a good price as I was quoted an LE/Active Duty Military price of $1850.


Hmmmm.... Don't know what civvies will have to pay.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 10:44:23 AM EDT
I think Premier Reticles site is down I cant get anything to come up.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 11:58:41 AM EDT
Found this thread late but FWIW, my Lilja is the most accurate barrel that I have ever used. I am eyeing a JN 14.5" AFGHAN barrel for my next project.

BTW Wes, did you get my e-mail?
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 12:12:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Knuckleduster:
Wheres the best place to get a S&B short dot? Whats the going price?



had an excellent buying experiance with Matt Garrett, would highly recommend buying from him.
mattgarrett@earthlink.net
he offers Mil / Leo discount.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 5:50:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 9:01:46 PM EDT
Thanks, Wes!
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 11:49:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AShooter:

I vote for the Krieger "recce" barrels that JTAC is selling. The one I have can SHOOT!


img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/jtacsupply/Customer_Target.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/jtacsupply/Customer_recce2.jpg




Now THATS kick ass.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 12:10:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 12:11:16 PM EDT by AShooter]

You ain't kidding Lumpy! Week before last she was ringing steel out to 600yds every time I pulled the trigger (before the wind woke up).

... if only it had a Leitner-Wise piston.

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 2:58:50 PM EDT
Just counting days for when the Noveske CL recon barrels get made
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:01:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:24:12 AM EDT
keep us posted on the MRP barrel's progress
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:00:07 PM EDT
A potentially expensive tag
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:59:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 9:02:10 PM EDT by edwin907]

Originally Posted By jar3ds:
keep us posted on the MRP barrel's progress



My 16" SS 1/7 LMT MRP barrel is unreal, .4" (or less) groups with 75 gr TAP, .5" (or less) with 55 grain Ballistic Silvertips, and .8" with Q3131A all at 100 yards, all in the same day.
Now this was under ideal conditions, bag rear, bipod front, no wind, Nightforce scope, and I was having a pretty good day.
The BST and TAP rounds would do it even with a 10 round group, the Q3131A a slight flier about every 4-7 rounds. The benchrest guys were very impressed by this "gas" gun.
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