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Posted: 10/24/2006 10:40:58 AM EST
Who has A1 FSPs for sale?

The 16" Bushy barrel I used for my XM clone has an A2 FSP. I Want to make it look correct.
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 10:46:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 11:30:09 AM EST
I'll bet Model 1 or Sherlock or any of the places that sells surplus stuff will have one. Maybe one of the advertisers on this board will have one.
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 11:53:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2006 11:55:11 AM EST by shamayim]
One problem you're going to have is that a standard height A1 post is too short. The carbines and XM177 SMGs had a round post .040 higher than the rifles. You mught be able to find one off an SP1 carbine that someone has replaced the round post w/a current square type, as I have done w/my own SP1 based XM177E2 clone. Otherwise, using a rifle height post will result in the base of the blade being halfway out of the hole to get you sighted in at anything under 300-400 meters.

And no, I'm not interested in disposing of my own original round post
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 11:57:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2006 12:06:48 PM EST by Blanco_Diablo]
Bushmaster and Sherluk has them. Bushy is about $1 cheaper.

But I dont like that about the FSP needing to be .04" higher.
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 12:56:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
Bushmaster and Sherluk has them. Bushy is about $1 cheaper.

But I dont like that about the FSP needing to be .04" higher.


Don't know about Sherluck, but the piece that Bushie sells is the current type square post. It's the one I put on my own SP1 XM177d piece when I decided to use the current profile post on all my ARs; both the current types, and the M16,16A1,and 177 clones. Kept the round posts in the parts box to be able to go back if the urge ever strikes.

If the higher type square post works for you, DPMS also now lists it, and you can still get the original Colt higher square post, that they used in the carbines before the "F" marked sight base was created. I just don't think anyone would have the older round post in the higher version
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 1:03:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 1:09:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By QUIB:
www.usarmory.com/catalog.asp?PAGE=3

Front Sight Post , A1 $3.00

That isnt the Carbine one though, is it?
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 1:27:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 4:01:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2006 4:05:54 PM EST by Blanco_Diablo]
Would a regular A1 FSP work with a carbine upper, even with it elevated so far? Will it hold zero?
Link Posted: 10/24/2006 4:58:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2006 5:09:43 PM EST by QUIB]
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 4:43:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By shamayim:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
Bushmaster and Sherluk has them. Bushy is about $1 cheaper.

But I dont like that about the FSP needing to be .04" higher.


If the higher type square post works for you, DPMS also now lists it, and you can still get the original Colt higher square post, that they used in the carbines before the "F" marked sight base was created. I just don't think anyone would have the older round post in the higher version


Now I'm confused. The FSP I have is a Bushy square on a 16" barrel. Won't this keep me on paper under 300-400 meters?

Also, where can I get the original Colt higher square post?
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 12:40:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2006 12:44:24 PM EST by shamayim]

Originally Posted By joelad:

Also, where can I get the original Colt higher square post?


Colt part #SP64665. Brownells stock#160-301-016. Brownells phone; 1-800-741-0015

And if you'll check the pic in Quib's post, you'll notice that the front sight collar is far beyond the surface of the sight base. Ideally, any front post collar should be within a few clicks of the surface of the base. That's why the carbine posts were made higher in the first place.
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 1:41:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2006 2:15:15 PM EST by QUIB]
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 1:28:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By shamayim:
And if you'll check the pic in Quib's post, you'll notice that the front sight collar is far beyond the surface of the sight base. Ideally, any front post collar should be within a few clicks of the surface of the base.


Says who? That's a new one on me. As long as I obtain an accurate zero I'm happy.

ETA: Do you have any documentation to support that statement?


Says who? How about Colt; by putting an .040 higher post on all the carbines and SMGs they ever made up until the advent of the .040 higher F base on recent and current M4s. I do believe that Ekie also has a note on the higher fronts for the shorter barrels in his tacked thread above.

But hey, if it works for you, it's perfectly ok for me
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 1:57:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 1:58:47 PM EST by ar15inmn]

Originally Posted By shamayim:

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By shamayim:
And if you'll check the pic in Quib's post, you'll notice that the front sight collar is far beyond the surface of the sight base. Ideally, any front post collar should be within a few clicks of the surface of the base.


Says who? That's a new one on me. As long as I obtain an accurate zero I'm happy.

ETA: Do you have any documentation to support that statement?


Says who? How about Colt; by putting an .040 higher post on all the carbines and SMGs they ever made up until the advent of the .040 higher F base on recent and current M4s. I do believe that Ekie also has a note on the higher fronts for the shorter barrels in his tacked thread above.

But hey, if it works for you, it's perfectly ok for me


Correct, Colt has been using a taller front sight post for years. Its part number SP62447 for anyone looking.

And while we are discussing this Colt also uses differnt front sight posts on carbines vs rifles. The short tapered carbine is part number SP64665 and the rifle is part number SP64507.

Edited to add the A1 round is part number SP61706.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 2:11:11 PM EST
http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?TabID=0&category_selector=all_products&search_keywords=a1+sight

DPMS A1 front sight post for $2.39 and midway 1st class postage of about $2.30.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 2:22:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 2:25:38 PM EST by QUIB]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:41:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By shamayim:
And if you'll check the pic in Quib's post, you'll notice that the front sight collar is far beyond the surface of the sight base. Ideally, any front post collar should be within a few clicks of the surface of the base.



You didn’t address my question. I’m not doubting you on the use of taller FSP’s.

I’m referring to the comment quoted above, about how my FSP is zeroed. Can you provide documentation that states an acceptable adjustment range that my FSP should be?





(sigh)Quib; I never meant to imply that you've done something "bad". I really don't quite understand why your nose has gotten so bent out of shape about it. Look; if you're happy with the setup you've got, I'm perfectly happy for you. All my comments, both about the use of standard height blades in general, and about the pic of yours in particular was meant to indicate was that it's not what was intended at the factory, nor what GI specs called for.

If you don't have a problem with the setup you've got, I don't have one either. Personally, I have put the higher blade on all my carbines simply because I don't like the distraction of the adjustment wheel in my sight picture; but if it doesn't bother you then fine. But then, I don't like the original round blade either; which is why all my AR, both current and retro, have the current profile square blade. See, I'm not an authenticty freak either

Now please, can we move on to something else?
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 1:10:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 1:20:10 PM EST by WpnsMan]

Originally Posted By shamayim:
And if you'll check the pic in Quib's post, you'll notice that the front sight collar is far beyond the surface of the sight base. Ideally, any front post collar should be within a few clicks of the surface of the base.



Originally Posted By QUIB:
You didn’t address my question. I’m not doubting you on the use of taller FSP’s.

I’m referring to the comment quoted above, about how my FSP is zeroed. Can you provide documentation that states an acceptable adjustment range that my FSP should be?



Seems to be a little misunderstanding here over nothing.

On the A1 sighting system there are 30 clicks (+/- a click) of total elevation for the FSP. This is counting from the FSP bottomed out in the FSB to flush, or where the base of the FSP (where the notches are) is even with the top surface of the FSB.

Mechanical zero for the FSP on an A1 is therefore 15 clicks down from flush. This puts the FSP in the middle of it's travel so you don't start from one extreme to another when you initially BSZ your weapon. After you achieve your BSZ you count the clicks it takes to bring you back to flush. This is your BSZ elevation number, for that particular weapon only. Every weapon will have a slightly different elevation zero due to tolerance stacking.

What's the point of this lesson you ask?

If you can obtain your BSZ anywhere between bottomed out and flush it is acceptable. Though close to bottomed out gives you a shitty sight picture, but that is thankfully a rare occurrence.

shamayim,

If you'll look closely at the picture QUIB posted again, notice the base of the FSP in relation to the rear surface of the FSB where it is marked UP. It is actually below flush by at least 4 or 5 clicks which is acceptable. Now if he were 4 to 5 clicks above flush then yes, I'd have to agree with you that he should install a taller FSP. But, this is not the case in this instance.

Now in hopes of making this useful for those who may be looking for the right FSP for their application, we should list the part numbers next to the correct height/style of FSP as the last post was a little confusing. i.e.

Standard A1 - PN#######
+ .040 A1 - PN#######
Standard A2 - PN#######
+ .040 A2 - PN#######

Wpns Man edited for spelling, I hope
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:23:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 2:35:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 3:03:52 AM EST by ar15inmn]
Colt Part Numbers

Standard A1 Round – PN SP61706
Standard (SHORT SQUARE - NO TAPER) Rifle – PN SP64507
Standard (SHORT TAPERED) Carbine – PN SP64665
+ .040 (9MM) TALL STRAIGHT, SMG – PN SP62447
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 2:38:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 2:39:24 AM EST by Blanco_Diablo]
Does SAW carry them possibly?

ETA: How do the part numbers help us? Can we order them direct from Colt?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 2:44:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 2:45:59 AM EST by ar15inmn]

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
Does SAW carry them possibly?

ETA: How do the part numbers help us? Can we order them direct from Colt?


SAW carries all Colt parts, they do have a $50.00 minimum order (but if your like me it's not too hard to find a need for $50.00 worth of parts).

Brownells is a better option for most (no minimum and cheaper shipping) but they do not list the A1 or the +.040.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 2:47:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 2:47:49 AM EST by Blanco_Diablo]
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 3:03:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?


I believe it would be an A1. Maybe someone else can verify this?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 5:09:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 5:23:30 AM EST by WpnsMan]
ar15inmn,

Thanks for clarifying the PN's. Saved me from digging out the TM's in an effort to cross reference NSN's to find the PN's. Which would have only given me the Standard A1 and A2 since I've not been able to find a reference for the tapered carbine, + .040 or the tall A1 in any military manual to date.

Seems the elusive PN we are looking for then is the tall A1. One would "assume" they were used on carbine length gas systems from their inception and would therefore be correct for the XM177 series. But, it is also possible that the deficiency first came to light in the XM177's and the tall FSP was a subsequent development and fielded on later models such as the 653.

Since the TM's seem to be devoid of their existence the only way to determine when they first made an appearance and more importantly for our purposes, aquire the elusive PN, would be to find a Colt parts manual or schematic which list them. So, anyone have a Colt factory parts manual from the era that might be of help?

Wpns Man


Link Posted: 10/28/2006 11:04:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?


I believe it would be an A1. Maybe someone else can verify this?

I mean which of the part numbers would it be?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 12:58:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?


I believe it would be an A1. Maybe someone else can verify this?

I mean which of the part numbers would it be?


Standard A1 Round – PN SP61706
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 12:59:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?


I believe it would be an A1. Maybe someone else can verify this?

I mean which of the part numbers would it be?


Standard A1 Round – PN SP61706

Thats the one that is .040" taller for the Carbines?
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 1:08:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By ar15inmn:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
So would the one to use on an XM177E2 (11.5" bbl) clone be the short tapered carbine or the "9mm SMG +.040"?


I believe it would be an A1. Maybe someone else can verify this?

I mean which of the part numbers would it be?


Standard A1 Round – PN SP61706

Thats the one that is .040" taller for the Carbines?


I can only find a part number for one A1, standard height not +.040
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 1:19:57 PM EST
Well what is a short tapered carbine FSP then? And what's the diff between the .223 SMG and 9mm SMG FSP's? Would it make a difference?
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