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Posted: 9/13/2005 10:43:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 10:57:45 AM EDT by DevL]
We define as weapon as short, intermediate and long range. We all can agree 25 yards is short range and 1000 yards is long range. What is intermediate range? Over 50 yards? Over 100 yards? Over 300 yards? Where does short range end and intermediate range begin?

Most people call their 16" AR an intermediate range rifle. They put low power scopes on thier rifle in the 3-6X range. They have a fragmenting range of about 100-150 yards or so depnding on ammo selection.

Does that mean once you get a fragmenting range of 100+ yards you are using an intermediate range weapon? Does an intermediate range weapon have certain accuracy criteria?

I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:48:01 AM EDT
Well the Marine Corps sees the purpose of its short range course to train “the individual rifleman to close the last 100 yards with accurate fire and safe geometry” However the majority, like 99 percent of the shooting of that course is 50 meters and closer, with almost all that less than 25 meters.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:11:53 AM EDT
Just off the top of my head, I'd consider anything inside 50 yards "short range" and anything beyond 300 yards "long range" - which I guess leaves everything in the middle as "intermediate"


But that's just my intuitive feel, not at all any official or formal definition.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:13:31 AM EDT
NRA Long range begins at 600 yds. From a High Power rifle shooter perspective, we consider the 200/300 lines the short range and the 600 the long range. Part of this is beacuse many of us use magazine length 77gr SMK bullets for 200/300 and longer 80/90 gr bullets seated to the lands for 600. Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:13:59 AM EDT
Anything within grenade throwing range is short range...

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:23:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
NRA Long range begins at 600 yds. From a High Power rifle shooter perspective, we consider the 200/300 lines the short range and the 600 the long range. Part of this is beacuse many of us use magazine length 77gr SMK bullets for 200/300 and longer 80/90 gr bullets seated to the lands for 600. Just my $.02.



I dont thnk most people would call 200-300 yards "short range" outside of long range or sniper use. I think that is short for long range but not "short range" in and of itself. Can you imagine a police offer shooting a bank robber at 275 yards being described as a "short range shot?"
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:29:28 AM EDT
Short range ends at 100yds for me. Why? I dont know, maybe because in my experience it seems to be a threshold in performance for a lot of shooters, +/- a few yards.

shrugs
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:30:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Just off the top of my head, I'd consider anything inside 50 yards "short range" and anything beyond 300 yards "long range" - which I guess leaves everything in the middle as "intermediate"


But that's just my intuitive feel, not at all any official or formal definition.

I agree.

<50--short
50-300--intermediate
>300--long

But that's just my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:32:07 AM EDT
In my mind, the range at which I am confident in first-round hits, offhand, is 'short'. Exacty where that ends depends on several factors - on a good day, it might be 150 yards with a 1911, on a bad day, it might be 100 yards with an AR.

Intermediate ends where I have to start thinking about bullet drop - 300 yards and more.

So I guess that 100-300 is intermediate, to me.

YMMV and all that. My observations are purely personal speculation.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:43:10 AM EDT
Short range ends at 200 yards for me.

That's the distance at where I consider my point blank range to end. Beyond 200 yards and I'll start considering holding high or doing a change to the sight's zero. Beyond 400 yards and depending on the chambering I consider it to be long range, for 223Rem anything beyond 400 yards and I consider it long range.


The talk of what "long range" is really is chambering specific for me.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:44:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 6:33:12 PM EDT by hispeedal2]
I think in terms of different weapon systems, not just the AR15/M16.

Short range is out to 300M (AR15)
Medium range is 300M- 600M (Battle Rifle/ M14)
Long range is 600M- 1000M (Precision Bolt Gun)
Extreme LR is 1000M+ (Magnum Bolt Guns or .50)

Now with the AR15/M16 (short range) system-
CQ is 75M or less- you should be focused on multiple hits and not so much on precision.
75M- 250M Intermediate
250M+ is LR(for the AR15)- only attempt if you are sure

edited to clarify
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:46:25 AM EDT
short range is battle zero. 0-300 yds.
intermediate is 300-600
long range is 600 plus.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:47:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:48:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 11:49:34 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By hispeedal2:
I think in terms of different weapon systems, not just the AR15/M16.

Short range is out to 300M (AR15)
Medium range is 300M- 600M (Battle Rifle/ M14)
Long range is 600M- 1000M (Precision Bolt Gun)
Extreme LR is 1000M+ (Magnum Bolt Guns or .50)

Now with the AR15/M16 system-
CQ is 75M or less- you should be focused on multiple hits and not so much on precision.
75M- 250M Intermediate
250M+ is LR - only attempt if you are sure



Wait... you just said out to 300M (AR15) is short range then said 250M+ is LR with the AR15. Does this confuse anyone else?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:52:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 11:54:37 AM EDT by DevL]
For those of you who believe short range extends to 300 yards, do you believe there is no need or advantage for shooting out to 300 yards with an "intermediate range" optic like an ACOG? Short range weapons need short range optics right and a 299 yard shot is a short range shot? 300 yard shots should be done with 1X dot sights? Over 600 should be 10X or over scopes?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:06:53 PM EDT
Personally speaking;

0-200 is short,
201-400 is medium,
401+ is long range.

I have access to about 700(shootable)yds at our farm so I haven't been able to try anything further than that yet. All ranges less than that are within my abilities to get a hit on a man-sized target.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:16:12 PM EDT
I'd call 150 to 200 short range, with the understanding that in RL terms it is actually going to be a lot closer than that. The USMC and USA pretty much look at the SDM/DMR role of a medium range rifle at around 300-600/700 filling the gap between M16/M4 and the M24/M40, which would be long range taking over from 600/700.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:19:34 PM EDT
I consider short range to be any distance where I can hit paint without a bench rest, ie sitting or standing up. I would consider long range any distance where you couldn't effectively identify features of a target without the use of optics.

On the battlefield I'm sure you could assume that a silouete at 300 yards with an AK47 is an enemy and engage it but unless you could identify what they were wearing, how tall they are ect I would still consider that long range.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:13:13 PM EDT
Under 10 yrds CQC

10 yrds to 50 yrds is short range

51 yards to 150 yrds is intermediate range

151 yards to 600 yrds long range

600 yrds to 1000 yrds plus is extremely long range

Thats how I see it.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:36:03 PM EDT
How do you differentiate the distance 5.56 fragments and the rifles ability to hit targets? We consider 10" barrel short range yet it can make 300 yard hit easily.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:57:31 PM EDT
Short range for me is 0-75 yards
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:07:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:08:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 2:09:40 PM EDT by magnum_99]
For me, short range is the max range I can accurately SEE and hit a head-sized target with my nakes eyes (not a day-glow orange colored head out in the open either, but a brown or green helmet covered head down on the ground or poking just above the berm).

That is about 200 yards.

More than that, and a rifle with a scope is in order.

Also, for 5.56, that is about the max combat range I would want to engage a target and have a chance of it staying down.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:20:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
For those of you who believe short range extends to 300 yards, do you believe there is no need or advantage for shooting out to 300 yards with an "intermediate range" optic like an ACOG? Short range weapons need short range optics right and a 299 yard shot is a short range shot? 300 yard shots should be done with 1X dot sights? Over 600 should be 10X or over scopes?



Sounds right! I shoot from 1000 with iron sights.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:33:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 3:41:22 PM EDT by 444]
What I am shooting makes these definitions for me.
With an AR15, I consider long range to be 300 yards+. The reason is that you everything becomes more critical somewhere around that point. Range estimation starts to become more critical: up to that point the round is "flat" shooting. Wind also starts becoming a really big factor beyond 300 yards for me. One of my faviorite ranges has berms at 300,400,and 500 meters. I find that when shooting an AR, I can hit an IDPA silhouette everytime at 300, even with moderate wind, and even when using lower end ammo like Wolf. I can even shoot more carefully and pretty much ensure hits in what would be the upper chest at 300. But, on the same day, same equipment, same facility, I can move that same target to 500 and can't put one round on target no matter how hard I try with an AR. That requires much better quality ammo and it requires significantly more knowlege of the wind and how much you need to hold off.
BUT, if I am shooting my M1 (service grade DCM: nothing special), 500 is a breeze. I can duplicate my performace at 300 with an AR. In other words I can hit a silhouette every time from prone using surplus Korean ammo etc at 500. With the M1, I would consider 500-600 yards the beginning of long range. Again, this is the range where factors like wind really start to play a BIG role. By a big role I mean that you won't hit a silhoutte at all unless you take wind into account. And again, elevation starts to become critical for that round where you need to have a fairly accurate idea of the range to target and the sight dope or you are going to completely miss the target. I have good solid sight dope for my M1 out to 700 yards that I obtained from actually firing the rifle at those ranges. But, if I don't know how far away the target is, that doesn't do me much good when you get out past 500-600 because the distance has reached the critical point: if your estimation isn't close, you won't hit the target.

Intermediate range to me is the point where I have to slow down and start to concentrate on the fundamentals of marksmanship in order to get good hits on the target. If you have ever taken a formal defensive rifle/carbine class this idea becomes obvious. At close range you can make snap shots without actually paying close attention to sight alignment or sight picture. Close is good enough. You can fire hammers and controlled pairs and keep the shots in the COM. As you back up, more time and attention is required to achieve the same results until you get to the point where you are actually attempting to achieve a textbook looking sight picture, you concentrate on a clean trigger break etc. For me, I guess that range would be about 25 yards but it might be more or less for you depending on your skill level. So for me, intermediate range would be 25-300 with an AR and 25 to 500 or so with an M1.
I should add that this is all from field positions, with the M1 I would be using a sling. With the M1, I am using as issued iron sights. With the AR I might be using an Aimpoint or an ACOG TA31F.
Big scope would certainly be easier, but I don't have one.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:36:08 PM EDT
Originally from Topgunpilot20


I agree.

<50--short
50-300--intermediate
>300--long

But that's just my opinion.



If I had my vote I would pick this as my rule of thumb as I believe for the greater percentage of us who would ever use their Carbine for defense would find the greatest threat at <50 yds or less. I've watched a LOT of shooters struggle at <50 and be just downright ugly at 100. I think well over 50% of shooters really start to strugle past 100yds and rarely do I see anyone perform well at 300 or beyond without a scoped ,Bolt action off a bench with sandbags on a clear windless day.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:52:46 PM EDT
With all due respect to the iron sight guys, those things have their limitations. They work a lot better on a square range thatn they do elsehere.

That said, if you have been practicing you should be able to make offhand body shots at 100 yards without any trouble. We'll call that short range.

Intermediate is out to about 300 yards, here something like an Aimpoint starts to be a little difficult, and a 10.5 starts to run out of steam.

Beyond that is long range.

Beyond 800 to 1000 is Extra longe range

over 12-1300 is extreme long range.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:08:30 PM EDT
Disclaimer: My following post is not in the context of High Power Rifle Match shooting by skilled shooters and all our allowed equipment. I know well what a M-16/AR-15 is capable of up to 500M and beyond. I was able to earn multiple Expert badges on the 500M USMC course of fire and have started NRA High Power Rifle shooting:

Being a hunter I think that it is laughable that someone would claim that 300yds with a short barrel .223 rifle is not long range. On an animal, there is a 10 ring and nothing else matters. Without a spotter, or a spotting scope, you are guessing at 300 yds. Most people would neither be able to accurately judge 300 yds nor get their windage set for a dead on cold shot. Unless you are at a range with either a rest or in a solid position, most people would not score a 10 on their cold shot.
This is were a M1A will shine. Much more forgiving. Step it up to a 7MM Mag and you are at point of aim point of impact at 300 yds while still being able to kill without adjusting elevation under 100 yds.
Hitting a silhouette doesn't count as a kill.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:28:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 5:46:48 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:32:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Disclaimer: My following post is not in the context of High Power Rifle Match shooting by skilled shooters and all our allowed equipment. I know well what a M-16/AR-15 is capable of up to 500M and beyond. I was able to earn multiple Expert badges on the 500M USMC course of fire and have started NRA High Power Rifle shooting:

Being a hunter I think that it is laughable that someone would claim that 300yds with a short barrel .223 rifle is not long range. On an animal, there is a 10 ring and nothing else matters. Without a spotter, or a spotting scope, you are guessing at 300 yds. Most people would neither be able to accurately judge 300 yds nor get their windage set for a dead on cold shot. Unless you are at a range with either a rest or in a solid position, most people would not score a 10 on their cold shot.
This is were a M1A will shine. Much more forgiving. Step it up to a 7MM Mag and you are at point of aim point of impact at 300 yds while still being able to kill without adjusting elevation under 100 yds.
Hitting a silhouette doesn't count as a kill.




300 meters with 5.56 mm is point of aim, point of impact. That is the intent of the 300m BZO, true most people range finding ability is insufficient to range beyond 150 or so meters. But range finding is generally not the limitation on shooting accuracy, there are dozens of other physical factors that are much more detrimental than ranging errors. Winds should not be problem with a 5.56, at 300 even with high winds you have very little deflection at that range, aiming center mass out to 300 will more than compensate for any wind effects on a full silhouette. Also unlike hunting, we would take a shot even if it were not guaranteed a human killing shot, knowing that 1) any hit can be fatal 2) most hits adversely effects the enemy to resist 3) we are not concerned with “human” kills, but instead accomplishing a mission
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:37:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Well the Marine Corps sees the purpose of its short range course to train “the individual rifleman to close the last 100 yards with accurate fire and safe geometry” However the majority, like 99 percent of the shooting of that course is 50 meters and closer, with almost all that less than 25 meters.




Agree. The MEU SOC course is 50 and in with most of the shoots being taken from 25 and in.



C4



I know of the course you are referring, but that was more of a course that the Marine Corps adopted for only the Force Platoon's MEU SOC pre-deployment CQB training. The majority of the Marine Corps never even saw anything like that. However now we do a shooting package called the EMP (enhanced marksmanship program) course prior to deploying. The EMP is what I was referring to when I referred to the "close range course."
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:38:52 PM EDT
I have heard anecdotal evidence (secondhand via internet) of a SPR (ARMS/PRI type) making a first round head shot on an Arab at 700m, resulting in an immediate fatality.

That is certainly long range, and it is proof that if you bring the skills to the game, the equipment will work.

The shooter was Army SF.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:40:54 PM EDT
Shooting an AR at 100-300m is pretty easy. Drop and drift are minimal, the weapon is accurate, and you have time to make the shot. Beyond 300m its harder, and up close its MUCH harder.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:48:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 5:49:35 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:12:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
In my mind, the range at which I am confident in first-round hits, offhand, is 'short'. Exacty where that ends depends on several factors - on a good day, it might be 150 yards with a 1911, on a bad day, it might be 100 yards with an AR.

Intermediate ends where I have to start thinking about bullet drop - 300 yards and more.

So I guess that 100-300 is intermediate, to me.

YMMV and all that. My observations are purely personal speculation.



I like this definition except I'd refine it by requiring reasonable certainty of a hit with a fairly quick offhand shot.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:25:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 6:29:36 PM EDT by hispeedal2]

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By hispeedal2:
I think in terms of different weapon systems, not just the AR15/M16.

Short range is out to 300M (AR15)
Medium range is 300M- 600M (Battle Rifle/ M14)
Long range is 600M- 1000M (Precision Bolt Gun)
Extreme LR is 1000M+ (Magnum Bolt Guns or .50)

Now with the AR15/M16 system-
CQ is 75M or less- you should be focused on multiple hits and not so much on precision.
75M- 250M Intermediate
250M+ is LR - only attempt if you are sure



Wait... you just said out to 300M (AR15) is short range then said 250M+ is LR with the AR15. Does this confuse anyone else?



There is such thing as grey area in ranges. Just because a weapon has an effective range of 550M does not mean that you can't hit at 551M or that you will hit at 500M.

To clarify, my first post in short, med, long, extreme in terms of weapon systems (or caliber if you prefer). The second part is to further break down the "short" range.

Its not rocket science, just categorization.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:30:41 PM EDT
For Combat shooting:

0-100, Short (Unsupported stance)

100-300, Intermediate (Rifle must be supported)

300+, Long Range (Optics required)
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 9:17:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 9:23:12 PM EDT by Mike_Mills]
The current names of the NRA high power rifle targets were set by the military long ago and are still valid.

SR (short range) - used at 200 yards.
SR-1 (short range) - same as SR target but scaled down for use at 100 yards.
SR-3 (short range) - same as SR but has larger aiming black for use at 300 yards.

MR (medium range) - used at 500 yards.
MR-1 (medium range) - same as MR except larger aiming black for use at 600 yards.

LR (long range) - used at 800, 900 and 1000 yards.


Inside 200 yards is absolutely short range. I would say inside 100 yards qualifies as CQB.

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:40:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Just off the top of my head, I'd consider anything inside 50 yards "short range" and anything beyond 300 yards "long range" - which I guess leaves everything in the middle as "intermediate"


But that's just my intuitive feel, not at all any official or formal definition.

Sounds good to me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:10:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Short range ends at 100yds for me. Why? I dont know, maybe because in my experience it seems to be a threshold in performance for a lot of shooters, +/- a few yards.

shrugs



+1
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:01:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 5:42:32 AM EDT by DevL]
So I take you long range shooting guys do not consider a RECCE or M4 to be an intermediate range weapon then correct? Extremely reduced terminal ballistics combined with severe drop past 300m and little ability to buck wind. Yes or no?

If I had to take a shot at an unknown range from 275-325 yards, account for a 5-10mph wind from a random direction, shoot prone with no rest or bipod using a 4X scope with a 5.56 M4 I think my first round hits on a head sized target would be way below 50% first round hits. Yet I still think of that as an intermediate range weapon. If I was on a square range, knew the wind, knew the distance, etc. I could put 10 in a row on a head sized target with the same rifle. Is it the individual that determines the rifles potential as an intermediate range tool, the ability of the rifle to make hits froma mechanical level or the terminal performance of the rifle?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:19:02 AM EDT
Keeping in mind that I'm an Armchair Commando, with NO .MIL experience whatsoever, I'd say in MY case, anything I can hit by "point shooting" is close range.

Anything using the sights and requiring a "dead on" hold, is intermediate.

Finally, anything requiring the sights, plus hold over or adjustment for elevation, is long range.

Measured distances depend on the weapon.

JMHO as an Armchair Commando. YMMV due to skill and experience..



Lonny
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:30:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 6:31:03 AM EDT by Dead_Nuts]
Not much a concensus on this one.

First, I think we need to agree that range designations are weapon (or at least caliber) specific. My little backup Glock 27 will never have the reach out and touch someone ability of a bolt action .50bmg with the monster "I see dead people!" scope on top. So, I'm assuming for the sake of this discussion that we mean average ARs here (not accurized, etc.).

That being the case, I'd say that short range is 35-100m. Under that and you're talking CQ. 100-275m would constitute medium range to me. Long range would be 275-450m. Outside of that would constitute ultra or "extra equipment needed" long range to me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:35:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
short range is battle zero. 0-300 yds.
intermediate is 300-600
long range is 600 plus.

hr
hat
It's funny how things are perceived differently between civilian & military. In the civilian world, I carry a Glock 19 (with an extra magazine) & have an AR-15 in the trunk of my car with (magazines). I also carry a folding knife (Spyderco or Cold Steel). Most civilians would consider that heavily armed.

In Iraq, that's just business casual.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:39:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 6:44:43 AM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By Dead_Nuts:
Not much a concensus on this one.



I've often wondered the same thing about the range definitions. Concensus on range is going to be highly subjective depending on the rifle/caliber used (and the person, too)

So I say: Let the Optic Decide:

To add to the concensus building process here, I thought I'd add my own. The effective range of any rifle depends on one's ability to regularly and consistently hit a target (whatever it may be). So.....

Short Range: Eotech/Aimpoint/iron sights
Mid-Range: maybe ACOG or 1-5x Scope tactical scope
Long-Range: 10x scope
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:53:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
For Combat shooting:

0-100, Short (Unsupported stance)

100-300, Intermediate (Rifle must be supported)

300+, Long Range (Optics required)



+1

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:58:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Accomplice:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
For Combat shooting:

0-100, Short (Unsupported stance)

100-300, Intermediate (Rifle must be supported)

300+, Long Range (Optics required)



+1




I like this one, too.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:12:41 AM EDT
87 meters!

It's been scientifically proven!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:14:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 7:15:09 AM EDT by KnobCreek]

Originally Posted By markm:
87 meters!

It's been scientifically proven!




OK, I NEED TO KNOW WHAT THIS 87 IS ALL ABOUT. If it was 69 I would get it, but 87.


It's everywhere, man. I gotta know
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:58:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xcpd69:
Keeping in mind that I'm an Armchair Commando, with NO .MIL experience whatsoever, I'd say in MY case, anything I can hit by "point shooting" is close range.

Lonny



I reccomend you use your sights. There have been cases of trained shooters firing whole mags at people and missing at the 15 yard line. With an AR. Pistols, point shoooting is more than iffy by the 3 yard line.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 8:03:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By xcpd69:
Keeping in mind that I'm an Armchair Commando, with NO .MIL experience whatsoever, I'd say in MY case, anything I can hit by "point shooting" is close range.

Lonny



I reccomend you use your sights. There have been cases of trained shooters firing whole mags at people and missing at the 15 yard line. With an AR. Pistols, point shoooting is more than iffy by the 3 yard line.




Wow, from 15 yards. Hard to imagine. I guess stress and a load of crap in the drawers can affect one's aim.
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