Well since it was a nice day out today I took my 20" AR and put around 90rds down the barrel and I am not cleaning it. I do not have a chrome lined barrel but I do have a dewey and a parker hale jag. I normally run patches through the barrel to most of the gunk is out. However I normally remove all the gunk and see the blue/green on the patch which indicates copper, correct?

So how often do you guys hit the barrel with a copper solvent?

Thanks

Every time you clean you should de-copper the bore. It builds fast! This picture is of a new S&W 4006 barrel. It has only been test fire at the factory maybe 3 shots total. You can clearly see copper build up from those few shots. Imagen what a few hunderd will look like. The 2nd picture is the patch with Wipe Out copper solvent used on the bore.

Quoted: So how often do you guys hit the barrel with a copper solvent?

Never.

If you like your weapon, or think that you may ever have to depend upon it for your life... Clean it back to a virgin status everytime you shoot it.  The barrel will give better performance and you will protect your investment and learn more about the rifle in the process.

Quoted: If you like your weapon, or think that you may ever have to depend upon it for your life... Clean it back to a virgin status everytime you shoot it.  The barrel will give better performance and you will protect your investment and learn more about the rifle in the process.

Which certainly explains why the Army and Marines don't regularly use copper solvents on their small-arms. As Armalite says, "...government tests reveal that copper removal provides no advantage in a standard military arm"

If your firearm is has a chrome-lined barrel, copper solvents can even be bad for the barrel. If not chrome lined, knock yourself out and pull some bluish patches, but there will be NO improvement in reliability, and absolutely no practical improvement in accuracy.

Well today I got a small jar of J-B Bore Compound to see if it would remove the stubborn copper out of the Savage 10FP. wiped the patch in the jar so I could see it colored the patch and ran it up and down 6 or so times. Then ran two patches through with Hoppes Semi Auto and the 2nd came out clean, so I ran a dry patch through.

That stuff works great! I am thinking that I wouldn't bother with copper build up unless I cant hold good groups or I get a malfunction of some sort.

Quoted: Well today I got a small jar of J-B Bore Compound to see if it would remove the stubborn copper out of the Savage 10FP. wiped the patch in the jar so I could see it colored the patch and ran it up and down 6 or so times. Then ran two patches through with Hoppes Semi Auto and the 2nd came out clean, so I ran a dry patch through. That stuff works great! I am thinking that I wouldn't bother with copper build up unless I cant hold good groups or I get a malfunction of some sort.

DO NOT use JB Bore compound often. It is very abrasive and can ruin your bore fast! Try something like Wipe Out or Butches Bore Shine. The get the copper out by a chemical reaction and not by abrassion. Much easier on the steel.

Quoted: Quoted: Well today I got a small jar of J-B Bore Compound to see if it would remove the stubborn copper out of the Savage 10FP. wiped the patch in the jar so I could see it colored the patch and ran it up and down 6 or so times. Then ran two patches through with Hoppes Semi Auto and the 2nd came out clean, so I ran a dry patch through. That stuff works great! I am thinking that I wouldn't bother with copper build up unless I cant hold good groups or I get a malfunction of some sort. DO NOT use JB Bore compound often. It is very abrasive and can ruin your bore fast! Try something like Wipe Out or Butches Bore Shine. The get the copper out by a chemical reaction and not by abrassion. Much easier on the steel.

+1

NEVER use JB BORE PASTE or ANY ABRASIVE CLEANER on a precision rifle (eg 10FP, 700, etc)...

Solvents only - NO ABRASIVES...

Is it normal for there to be a slight copper color in the barrel after you de-copper it? All my barrels show some copper color in them around the edges of the rifling even after detailed cleaning, is this just part of the break in, or should I clean it till it is completely silver in color with no traces of copper at all?

Also. i have read that a chrome lined barrel shouldnt be cleaned as often as a ss barrel or non-chrome lined. They say over cleaning and harsh copper removing solvents and chemicals can do more damage than the copper fouling itself.

Quoted: Also. i have read that a chrome lined barrel shouldnt be cleaned as often as a ss barrel or non-chrome lined. They say over cleaning and harsh copper removing solvents and chemicals can do more damage than the copper fouling itself.

The thing with chrome-lined barrels is that they are much easier to clean than just CM or SS. Clean them just as often, IMO.

And then we can open the whole can of worms by saying that many people 'overclean' their firearms, getting them ready for inspection by Drill Instructors of years gone by, when in fact a 'practical' firearm doesn't take all that much cleaning to keep in top form, and most of that cleaning should be on the action (bolt group, in the case of the AR) and chamber, rather than the barrel itself.

But of course, that would be opening a can of worms, so I won't say it.

when group size is no longer accpetable.

Quoted: Is it normal for there to be a slight copper color in the barrel after you de-copper it? All my barrels show some copper color in them around the edges of the rifling even after detailed cleaning, is this just part of the break in, or should I clean it till it is completely silver in color with no traces of copper at all?

Yes. As long as the patches are coming out white after the copper slovent then it is 99% cleaned of copper. There may still be a tiny bit in there but usually it will all be gone. If you still see a tiny bit in there hit the bore one more time with copper solvent and it should be all gone.
Sometimes you can get a layering effect if you do not clean well all the time and you get a layer of carbon over a layer of copper several times over. If your copper solvent does not cut carbon well you might be leaving the layers still in the barrle. The way I get all the carbon and copper out is I first use a carbon solvent like Mill-Comm Mc-25 or Slip 2000 725(both are extreemly good with the Slip 2000 safer on wood). I clean with this till patches come out white(scrubing with a brush every time). I then use the Copper solvent, Butches Bore Shine or Wipe Out. These get the ccopper out well. When no more color blue or purple can be seen on the patches I use the carbon slovent one more time and if no more black comes out it is done. Remember to rince with 91% isopropal alcohol inbetween solvents to nutrilise them first. Then re-oil the bore and you are done!

Quoted: +1 NEVER use JB BORE PASTE or ANY ABRASIVE CLEANER on a precision rifle (eg 10FP, 700, etc)... Solvents only - NO ABRASIVES...

From the package, "Match and varmint shooters put a lot of rounds down range, many of those using moly coated bullets. The large amounts of copper fouling and the burned-in moly can create a cleaning nightmare; J-B makes short work of it."

From the Krieger Barrel site, "The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemicals and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum. They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly."

Also I knew before hand that it should be used as little as possible, which no amount or normal copper solvent seemed to break my problem... Ill test my groups but $10 says I didn't do ONE bit of harm to the rifle. Sure if you use this every time you clean then it may cause damage... Technically yes it is "damaging" the barrel but since I do NOT have the skills of a match shooter am I going to notice the difference?

Quoted: Quoted: +1 NEVER use JB BORE PASTE or ANY ABRASIVE CLEANER on a precision rifle (eg 10FP, 700, etc)... Solvents only - NO ABRASIVES... From the package, "Match and varmint shooters put a lot of rounds down range, many of those using moly coated bullets. The large amounts of copper fouling and the burned-in moly can create a cleaning nightmare; J-B makes short work of it." From the Krieger Barrel site, "The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemicals and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum. They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly." Also I knew before hand that it should be used as little as possible, which no amount or normal copper solvent seemed to break my problem... Ill test my groups but $10 says I didn't do ONE bit of harm to the rifle. Sure if you use this every time you clean then it may cause damage... Technically yes it is "damaging" the barrel but since I do NOT have the skills of a match shooter am I going to notice the difference?

Anybody with air guaging equipment want to do a test to see if any amount of cleaning with J-B will wear out a barrel, and how long (number of passes) it takes to remove just 0.0001" from the diameter (that's 0.00005 per side)?

I'm willing to bet that in 10,000 passes with J-B (new patch every ten strokes) will still not remove an appreciable amount of steel.

But, claims by manufacturers of stuff are known to be wrong.

I base my bet on how much time and effort it takes to polish just 0.0005 out of a tube while using fine valve grinding compound (a much harder and coarser abrasive than J-B).

Dave.

Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 07:52 PM
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I answered this and lost it on transfer so will shorten this one and try to get my point across in fewer words. When some one uses JB on one of my rifles I void the warrantee! For two reasons. ! it dimensionally alters the barrel dimensions and not evenly and the second reason is the barrel maker laps the barrel with a grit of lapping compound that is most effective in preventing metal fouling. Then a customer polishes that finish away with JB. I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the sharp edges are worn off the rifling. if it has JB used on it on a regular basis. As you know ,it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. As for using it on factory barrels I will say that while it is difficult to hurt a production barrel but the thing that hurts a match barrel will do the same to a factory barrel

JB is just not worth the risk. There are more effective and safe ways to remove the copper. Try Wipe Out. It eves has anti-rust properitys to it and does not need to be flushed from the steel.

Quoted: when group size is no longer accpetable.

That's what my benchrest friends say, when groups start opening up.

Danny

Not claiming this is "THE WAY", but I hit the bore with some copper solvent just about everytime I shoot.  I don't obsess about getting every trace out, but a soaked patch and 10-15 minute wait session gets the majority of the copper out and keeps things in check. Every once in awhile I might go through 2-3 soak and wait sessions just to be thorough.

I also use JB on my Swede which I shoot moly bullets in.  Regarding claims that it removes metal, I just don't see how.  If there were any imbedding going on, the grit would be compressed into the patch and/or the jag or brush long before it would scratch the harder barrel steel.  It's great at shortstroking in the throat area and first couple of inches to remove carbon.

dripping water cuts stone.

Quoted: Quoted: when group size is no longer accpetable. That's what my benchrest friends say, when groups start opening up. Danny

I have always kinda followed that, just the amount of blue on the patch surprised me so I figured it was time to clean. So I guess I will continue doing the same.

Now about the JB, first off I do not have any match barrels, secondly most assume one would use the compound to clean daily. Some assume without any experience with the product that one application will kill your barrel. After hearing the dooms day message some spread I asked a gun smith who I work with, he agreed that it is useful to remove very stubborn copper, but it should not be used as a regular cleaner. I am not a smith thus my opinion is about as useful as the rest of yours. However talking about the compound with both a smith and my father (machinist) we came to the conclusion that most overreact when it comes to crap like this. I also tend to overreact when it comes to my guns because I spend lots of $ on them, so its not a bad thing.

Finally could someone please clarify this...

Quoted: Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 07:52 PM I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the sharp edges are worn off the rifling.

I under stand the sparingly part, but not the lead lap. The way I take it is, if the compound is used on a lead lap(?) and use in small amounts(which I did), McMillan would not be as apposed to the compound.

not a barrel maker.

My GUESS is that a lead lap is made out of lead (Pb) and  has been sized for the bore w/ correct twist rate.
eta
making of a rifled barrel
"LAPPING.

       "No need for it, just wears the barrel out!"- P. O. Ackley.

Lead lapping the barrel is done to polish the bore and remove machining marks and also to remove any tight spots in the barrel and make it dimensionally uniform end to end. If you were to sit down and write a top ten list of barrel makers, past or present, almost all would lap their barrels.

This process is usually done by hand, though the process is mechanized in larger shops. It also acts an inspection process for the barrel maker who can feel what is going on up the barrel.

First, the lapping rod (an old cleaning rod) is passed up the barrel to within about four inches of the end and then, with the barrel held vertical, molten lead is poured into the barrel. The lead freezes onto the end of the lapping rod forming a cast which precisely matches the inside form and dimensions of the barrel. The lead lap is then pushed out and smeared with lapping paste like that used for valve grinding. The lead lap is then pulled and pushed up and down the length of the barrel for several hundred strokes occasionally adding more paste or oil. Because the big particles of grit are embedded more deeply in the lead than the small particles there is an even bearing pressure from all the particles of grit onto the steel of the barrel. The net effect is to polish the barrel rather than scratch it which would leave a mat finish.

Lapping the barrel adds between one and three tenths of a thou' to the bore and groove diameters of the barrel and is used by most small custom barrel makers as the finishing process on the inside of the barrel. Lapping a barrel will improve the performance of almost any barrel - in some cases, startlingly so!

Generally, lapped barrels will shoot well from the word go where as the same barrel not lapped may take a thousand rounds or so until it starts performing at its best. Contrary to Ackley's dictum, lapping will add to the accurate life of a barrel, not detract from it."

The comments about not using JB bore cleaner are interesting as the owner's manual from my Armalite AR-10T carbine that I had at one point in time actually recommended the use of this cleaner during the break-in period and it had a stainless steel barrel.  I wish I still had the owner's manual, but it has been gone for about three years.