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Posted: 12/29/2003 4:06:34 PM EDT
When did the military and manufacturers switch to the M16A2 and the 30 round magazine.  I was watching the Blues Brothers last night, and noticed toward the end that the rifle Carrie Fisher was using to shoot at Jake & Elwood in the tunnel was a M16A1, but it appeared to have a 30 round mag in it with some type of black finish.  Later in the movie when the Chicago PD and the MP's are chasing them into the building, they appeared to all have M16A1's with 20 round mags.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:07:55 PM EDT
I got out in 1987 we still had M16A1s. However, we all had 30rd mags.

I think it was 1988 or 1989 that the A2 came out
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:21:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 4:22:13 PM EDT by _DR]
No, I know the A2's were out in 1987 because we were issued brand spankin' new M16A2s when I attended IOBC at Fort Benning that year.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:44:54 PM EDT
when i went to basic at fort knox toward the end of 87 start of 88 we were issued a1's. 1/2 way through basic we got a2's.

mike
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:59:52 PM EDT
Approved/selling-1982!
Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:13:33 PM EDT
were these rifles you guys were issued Colts?  Did anybody else make them for the millitary then.  Thanks
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:15:03 PM EDT
They were all COLTS!
Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:19:19 PM EDT
There is a book, the best one ever done, 10 plus years ago, by a Blake Stevens called the (Black Rifle), that has more damn good documented info than you can possibly imagine. Unfortunately they are out of print.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:27:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
No, I know the A2's were out in 1987 because we were issued brand spankin' new M16A2s when I attended IOBC at Fort Benning that year.
View Quote


Did ya' like em'? [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 5:34:41 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
IIRC, 30 round mags started showing up in Vietnam as early as 1969, but they were fairly rare until the early 70s.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:36:42 PM EDT
I thought the 82 had them when they went to Grenada.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:02:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 6:03:41 PM EDT by pbuff]
Too my knowledge, the USMC got the Colt A2 in 1983.  I was issued an A2 in recruit training (MCRD S.D.) in 1986.  And every unit thereafter.  We always had 30rd mags (except for rifle qualifications-- needed 20rds at the range, better for shooting in the prone position).


I think the Army started using them in 1986-87, but I'll bet it took along time to filter through to all infantry units.

I have a friend that was in the ARMY (Ranger-no less), and they used 20rd mags untill the early 90's.  I am still kinda shocked by that???, maybe I misunderstood him?

I have heard all [b]new[/b] orders for the AR rifle, are for the M4A1.  I am not sure if that is an Army or Marine thing. I am not even sure it is accurate????????
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:25:46 PM EDT
Lumpy is correct about the 30 rd. mags.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:28:45 PM EDT
The USMA got them first, because they were the proponent for them.
Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:29:21 PM EDT
The USMC got them first, because they were the proponent for them.
Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:03:39 PM EDT
Every M16A2 i saw in the Army was a FN. Never saw a Colt A2.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:11:42 PM EDT
I had the M16A1 in 1984 Ft. Benning Basic. I was with the 1st Cav and had the M16A1 and in 1986 I had the M16A1 in Germany with the 3rd ID. I turned in a M16A1 when I got out in 1987.

Maybe is was just select units that got the A2
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:51:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
Originally Posted By _DR:
No, I know the A2's were out in 1987 because we were issued brand spankin' new M16A2s when I attended IOBC at Fort Benning that year.
View Quote


Did ya' like em'? [:D]
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Yeah, compared to the A1s we thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Qute a bit more accurate, as I recall.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:55:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG36:
Every M16A2 i saw in the Army was a FN. Never saw a Colt A2.
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I don't know who says they were all made by Colt, but I know that's not right. Mine was stamped on the lower receiver. I'll never forget it that because we all laughed about it at the time. There were many subcontractors over the years.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:10:38 PM EDT
If you had a M16A2 with a GM Hyramatic stamp it was a rebuild of an old VietNam war era 'A1.  I've heard that some Guard units have those and they are very common in the USAF.  Seems like you could buy a new 'A2 cheaper than you could rebuild an 'A1, but maybe I'm wrong abou that.

I went through MCRD San Diego in 1986 and was issued a M16A2.  In 9.5 years in the Corps I never saw an M16A1 rifle anywhere, with the exception of a pre M16 rifle that was stamped "Armalite AR-15 by Colt" (or markings that were similar) that I borrowed from the USAF Security Forces in Texas.

All the early A2s were Colts.  Newer A2s are made in the USA by FN.  My M4 that I am currently issued is by Colt, as is all M4s I've seen.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:18:05 PM EDT
My issue A2 was a colt.  It also had the auto stamped over with burst and serial numbers all over the place on it.  The only thing that was new was the upper.  I thought it was weird.  5 years later we got m4s.  They were new.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:07:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 9:09:01 PM EDT by Colt-653]
The M16A2 was accepted by the USMC as Standard A in 1983 with the order of 1500 rifles. They did not completly replace the A1's until mid 1985. Late 1984 was the last time I saw an M16A1 on the West coast in USMC units.

The US Army accepted the A2 as Standard A in 1986 but didn't start taking large orders of the A2 until mid 1987. When we went to Panama alot of units still had A1's. The A2 was just starting to be issued at Fort Ord, CA at that time.

USANG units were still using A1's last time I went to a BRM FTX in 1999 in Northern CA. The weapon I drew was a near mint GM Hydramatic. About half of the Colt's had A2 furniture.  Most if not all USANG weapons should be updated to A2 or A4 status by now, but as all things military there are exceptions.

The USAF has just completed the PIP Kit upgrade of most M16's to A2 Status. I saw several USAF ANG units using M16's in CA after 9/11.

The 30rd magazine has been around since 1967 but was not issued in large numbers until 1973-74. The last major contract for 20rd magazines was made in 1971 with Adventure Line and Colt for NG and USAF units. A lot of CA ANG and USAF ANG units in CA were still using them well into the late 1990's.

FN did not start making A2's until late 1988 early 1989 and  large orders and delivery didn't take place until post GW1.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:05:43 PM EDT
Yep, sorry, (1983) was the official USMC adoption.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:19:54 PM EDT
The USMC can "officially" saw what they want but I was issued an M16A1 in 1985 while at MCAS Iwakuni, Japan. That was after 3 years of active duty. From 1982 to 1986 I never saw an M16A2.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:46:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
IIRC, 30 round mags started showing up in Vietnam as early as 1969, but they were fairly rare until the early 70s.
View Quote


Thanks for the info Lumpy.  I was just curious.  I didn't think they had the 30 rounders until the A2.  It's kind of funny, out of 23 posts, only 2 were related to the original question.  I suppose its like high school when everyone managed to get the teacher off of the topic at hand.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:28:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:31:53 AM EDT by GlockLuvinRedleg]
"I have heard all [b]new[/b] orders for the AR rifle, are for the M4A1.  I am not sure if that is an Army or Marine thing. I am not even sure it is accurate????????"

________________________________________________
From the most recent items i heard the marines came to the conclusion that the m4 was not as good as the m16a4 and they have decided that their next rifle evolution will be the A4's and not the m4s, that is of course, minus the units and personal that already have them.

As to the army, we can still gets A2's, i just recieved 8 new ones the week before xmas, you can get the A3, my unit isnt authorized but the full auto fun would be sweet, and some infantry units seem to be splitting it like 75/25 between M4's and A4's.

as to brands, we had FNs when i was in basic, but everywhere since i`ve had colts. strangely enough, i belive that some of the M4's at my last unit were bushmasters.      
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:32:39 AM EDT
It was either in late '85 or in '86 (more than likely '86) that we were issued the brand-new M16A2's, when I was assigned to the Aviation Brigade in the 82d Airborne Division.

I don't recall the manufacturer though.


Chris
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:01:49 AM EDT
Tinker AFB had Colt lowers marked AR15 and M16A at the practice range armory.
Some had chrome bolts.
All were updated to M16A2 specs (except for the ones with chrome bolts) and had the original markings stamped out with an XXX and either had M16A2 stamped next to it or on a small tag next to it.
That was in 2000.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 4:14:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GlockLuvinRedleg:
From the most recent items i heard the marines came to the conclusion that the m4 was not as good as the m16a4 and they have decided that their next rifle evolution will be the A4's and not the m4s, that is of course, minus the units and personal that already have them.

As to the army, we can still gets A2's, i just recieved 8 new ones the week before xmas, you can get the A3, my unit isnt authorized but the full auto fun would be sweet, and some infantry units seem to be splitting it like 75/25 between M4's and A4's.

as to brands, we had FNs when i was in basic, but everywhere since i`ve had colts. strangely enough, i belive that some of the M4's at my last unit were bushmasters.      
View Quote


The A4 will equip all Marines who are issued rifles.  Marines in certain TO/E positions like leaders, weapons' crews, etc will be getting M4s to replace their M9s.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 5:25:20 AM EDT
I turned in my Colt XM16E1 in for a Colt M16A2 mid 87.  Two weeks later busted the hand guards during a night parachute jump.  Took awhile to get replacements.  My two Battalions that I've been in 20yrs now, have always had enough 30rd mags.  Still some 20s around but only used on range or with the SPR and getting some HK 30 rounders.  

Saw a (USAF) rebuilt H&R M16A1 remarked M16A2 and the auto mark filed down and restamped burst and other A2 features.  USAF weapons seen GAU-5 & GUU-5 marked recievers both with and without the FA.

Standard issue M4 Carbine for the Army is the M4 with burst and detachable handle.  The M4A1 is a SOF weapon with full auto capability.  

My son's was issued a M16A4 in basic at Benning last year.  Have only seen two FN M16A2 close up in 20 years.  Some we gave to the Kuwaiti Army, ran a range for them in 00'.  Saw last one with 3rd ACR trooper in sandbox last month.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:39:34 AM EDT
I had the A1 in basic. in 1985 .I carried the M16A1 in germany (1985-1987) . I then PCS'ed ( 1987) to Ft. Lewis ( Infatry) and had the A2's there.They was COLT. , WarDawg
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:08:44 AM EDT
From the pictures in books I have, the 30 rounders started appearing in Vietnam after Tet.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:24:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 4:23:35 PM EDT
What the heck does the Blues Brothers have to do with what is real in life? Who cares what Hollywood uses in their NOT-REAL-LIFE movies?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 6:44:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WarDawg:
I had the A1 in basic. in 1985. I carried the M16A1 in germany (1985-1987) .I then PCS'ed ( 1987) to Ft. Lewis ( Infatry) and had the A2's there.They was COLT. , [red]WarDawg[/red]
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[red]Hey man...That's me![/red]
I was issued the A1 in basic in '84.  I was issued a Colt A1 in late '84 in the 101st and had it until late '86 until I was issued the A2.  I PCS'ed to Germany and got another A1 until early '88 when I got an A2 again.  I saw A2's briefly in Panama and Haiti in '86 & '87.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 7:36:05 PM EDT
The "Dedication Ceremony" for the "Colt M16A2 Rifle" was April 12, 1984 according to Colt documents and blue lexan paper weight souveniers that were given out at the dedication.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:07:24 PM EDT
I was an 11B with the 5/7 1st Cav Div during 1970 and 1971.  Never saw a 30 rnd mag during training or a year in RVN.
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