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Posted: 8/15/2017 12:43:03 PM EDT
I've never understood the appeal of the pistol caliber carbine.  Help me understand.

Pros and cons vs a AR-15?

9mm vs 45?  Any other calibers to consider?
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 12:53:34 PM EDT
[#1]
1. Cheap
2. Affordable ammo I can use in my pistol too
3. Low recoil
4. Excellent for teaching new shooters due to the low recoil and quiet report
5. Suppress better than a rifle (shit is quiet as hell, yo)
6. Generally pretty damn reliable
7. Easy to clean (most of them)
8. Fun as hell to shoot
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 12:55:39 PM EDT
[#2]
For some shooters, the single biggest attraction of a PCC is that they can be used on indoor ranges which do not allow centerfire rifle cartridges. If you don't have your own range, and/or live in an area of the country where the weather is terrible much of the year, that can be a big deal.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 1:03:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Won't blow your eardrums out of your ears if you shoot it indoors unsuppressed.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 1:36:22 PM EDT
[#4]
For a Long time I looked at Pistol Caliber Carbines and Pistols with the statement - WHY, just get a Glock 19 and stoke it with a 33rd magazine and I'm ready for anything. Then on a whim, I bought a 7.5" 9mm AR Pistol from a Gentleman selling it at a reasonable price, since then I built another to keep it company. Mostly Range toys with some thought in the back of my mind for Home Defense. Both AR 9's are not the first Firearm I would grab if I hear something go Bump in the night and If I felt I needed them close at all times for personal defense I would probably move.

I have owned 5.56, 300BO Rifles and Pistols and have gone completely Pistol Caliber, Ammo is cheap, small and light weight and do have the ability to reach out past Handgun effective range.

Recoil on a Blowback 9mm carbine or Pistol is very manageable, The recoil on a .45 AR is a little harsh due to Bolt and Buffer weight, with a .45 there are other options - Direct Impingement and Delayed Blowback to help manage recoil and wear and tear on internals.

I think of 9mm AR Pistols uses similar to the use of an H&K MP5.

To sum up - Range toys that are a lot of fun to shoot, Have a certain Cool factor and for us Aged shooters less abuse to my poor old body.



Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:09:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:18:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1. Cheap
2. Affordable ammo I can use in my pistol too
3. Low recoil
4. Excellent for teaching new shooters due to the low recoil and quiet report
5. Suppress better than a rifle (shit is quiet as hell, yo)
6. Generally pretty damn reliable
7. Easy to clean (most of them)

8. Fun as hell to shoot
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:28:24 PM EDT
[#7]
I like my AR9 because it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 but with the same manual of arms, control layout, etc.


OTOH, I'd rather have an MP5.  But those are 2x-4x the price of an AR9.

Kel-Tec Sub2k is worth a look as a trunk gun that will function with the same mags as your pistol (potentially).
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:33:46 PM EDT
[#8]
I like me some PCC, but I don't think I'd really enjoy a standard AR-pattern 9mm...

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Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:44:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 4:30:43 PM EDT
[#11]
9mm with a 4.5" barrel is a lot of fun.

9mm with a 16" barrel doesn't make sense to me.  I'd rather shoot 5.56 at that point.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 4:38:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 5:51:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Cheap to shoot.

Quiet.

Way easier to load for than 300 BLK.


Not necessarily in that order.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 5:59:36 PM EDT
[#14]
That got me I wanted to go!



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Link Posted: 8/15/2017 6:02:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Just plain old fun.

I have an AR45 and it is probably more "fun" than any other gun I have to just go plink at the range.

It is SBRed and Suppressed.

It is fairly quiet and the sound of 230gr bullets hitting steel is awesome.

It also happens to be very reliable and I would not hesitate to use it for self defense if need be.

I have an extra SBRed lower that I don't really have a use for.

Keep saying that I am going to build a 9mm upper for it.

I would keep it really short and light. Only thing holding me up is I don't have a suppressor for it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 6:55:41 PM EDT
[#16]
So much fun to shoot.
My range has at least 4 pits that are majority steel targets at close range. If you have ever shot steel with a PCC you will understand how much fun it is.
Very accurate
Cheap to shoot
Did I say, it is very fun to shoot?
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 7:16:30 PM EDT
[#17]
My fascination with pistol caliber carbines started when I first saw the Ruger 44 mag carbine.    Finally obtained one (a '63 vintage) and love it.  Unfortunately, let the wife shoot it so she thinks it is hers.

9mm out of a rifle is fun.  You get some velocity boost.  Low recoil, cheap ammo, and a nice step up from 22lr.   Also perfectly fine for defense.

Additionally, as mentioned above, you can often shoot them at "pistol only" things - either indoor ranges OR steel targets, etc. where 22lr doesn't have the power to knock something down, but 223 or other rifle calibers aren't allowed.

The ones that share magazine compatibility with a pistol - the Iver Johnson M1 Carbine that takes HP mags, the KelTec offerings, a Glock mag AR, the Beretta Cx4, etc - give you some nice backup, just like the old cowboys who had rifles and pistols in 44-40, etc.  I would imagine that if you were a police officer in an urban environment that having a carbine that shared ammo and mags with your duty pistol would be a plus.  Esp if you could ignore NFA laws (or at least the delays) and set up a short barrel (8-10") with shoulder stock.  Increased accuracy, etc.

The final point doesn't apply to me - but if you have a tax stamp for something with a giggle switch or if you care to use one of the binary triggers, a slide fire stock, etc, they are A LOT of fun, esp when shooting steel, etc.  Buddy has a M16 and multiple uppers. 95% of the time it has a conversion block and a 9mm upper (4" barrel w/ integral suppressor to bring it to 16 in. "barrel" length) on it.  MUCH more pleasant to shoot than with a 223 upper.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 9:02:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I've never understood the appeal of the pistol caliber carbine.  Help me understand.

Pros and cons vs a AR-15?

9mm vs 45?  Any other calibers to consider?
View Quote




I enjoy firing my Colt 6450 and my latest PCC, ( .357 SIG AR ) uses the same Glock mags that my G31 and G32 use.

While 9mm is obviously cheaper to shoot, I wanted a PCC that ran something hotter.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 10:24:22 PM EDT
[#19]
What's the appeal of a PCC?  Go shoot one, you'll see.  Hell, if you're ever down my way you can come shoot mine.  They're a fucking hoot.




Quoted:
Buddy has a M16 and multiple uppers. 95% of the time it has a conversion block and a 9mm upper (4" barrel w/ integral suppressor to bring it to 16 in. "barrel" length) on it.
View Quote
WTF?  a 4" barrel with a 12" fixed suppressor?  Thats a bit much considering a machine gun is already allowed to have as short of a barrel as you want.  You don't need an extra SBR stamp for it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 10:58:07 PM EDT
[#20]
4" barrel to try and keep the 147grn stuff subsonic, the big suppressor for efficiency and how well it works.  It actually looks like he has a full length free float tube on it, that just happens to go all the way to the muzzle.  He also wanted the option of putting it on one of his many non-FA/SBR lowers.  His build, he's happy with it, I like shooting it.

It isn't my place to tell him how to spend money, although I do offer tempting suggestions.  That reminds me, I need to email him about the 1913 1911 I saw at a local shop last week...
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 11:00:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:23:31 AM EDT
[#22]
My PCC's are "game guns"....I use them for USPSA and Steel shoots. I have had more fun shooting in PCC devision then limited, SS, or production combined.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:51:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
9mm with a 4.5" barrel is a lot of fun.

9mm with a 16" barrel doesn't make sense to me.  I'd rather shoot 5.56 at that point.
View Quote
Not if you're shooting steel targets inside of 15 yards!

Link Posted: 8/16/2017 3:10:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I've never understood the appeal of the pistol caliber carbine.  Help me understand.

Pros and cons vs a AR-15?

9mm vs 45?  Any other calibers to consider?
View Quote


I wonder if this has ever been asked before.....



Link Posted: 8/16/2017 3:56:07 AM EDT
[#25]
I look at my 9mm PCCs as a fun range toy that can actually be used as a tool if need be. Unlike a .22

They suppress very well, so I can shoot in places that I can't normally get away with. BLM land  behind the sub division for example.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 8:51:48 AM EDT
[#26]
with the initiation of a PCC division for USPSA, like others have commented, it gives you a chance to shoot a long gun on a shooting range of limited distance, on a course of fire typically  designed for pistols.... where 11m steel may be safely shot without damaging the target

from my perspective (almost 70 years old and wear bifocals) it allows me to shoot a shoulder fried dot gun, without needing to carry much more than a pistol mag reload in a pistol pouch...

shooting in Florida in July and August is pretty damn hot...
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 9:18:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  I like my AR9 because it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 but with the same manual of arms, control layout, etc.

OTOH, I'd rather have an MP5.  But those are 2x-4x the price of an AR9.

Kel-Tec Sub2k is worth a look as a trunk gun that will function with the same mags as your pistol (potentially).
View Quote
Trunk gun?  I carry it in my murse:

Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:18:42 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't understand some who think that a PCC is not a choice for home defense.  Based on my matches, I shoot it much faster and more accurately than my pistol.  It is quieter.  It holds more rounds.  Very easy to shoot.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:26:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never understood the appeal of the pistol caliber carbine.  Help me understand.

Pros and cons vs a AR-15?

9mm vs 45?  Any other calibers to consider?


I wonder if this has ever been asked before.....

https://pics.me.me/admire-your-commitment-to-beating-a-dead-horse-somee-cards-18792067.png
Let's face it, there's only about 10 or so different thread topics that come up in this sub-forum and for the most part, many of them have been beat to death over the years.

If no one asked any of the same tired questions, no one here would have reason to re-post pics of their guns over and over and repeat the same 'sales pitch' as to why one is better than the other.

In before the guy selling the delrin mag blocks pops in to advertise that he has blocks for both Glock and Colt style setups.  Oh vey.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:37:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Wait - there's a Glock mag block actually shipping?
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:01:43 PM EDT
[#31]
As it turns out, here on ARFCOM there is an entire technical Forum dedicated to nothing but the PCC!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/48_Pistol-Caliber-Carbines.html

As it also turns out, the Moderators here on ARFCOM appear to be too busy deciding whether or not some ones feelings will be hurt by a post than moving topics to the proper venue.

MHO, YMMV, etc.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:04:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As it turns out, here on ARFCOM there is an entire technical Forum dedicated to nothing but the PCC!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/48_Pistol-Caliber-Carbines.html

As it also turns out, the Moderators here on ARFCOM appear to be too busy deciding whether or not some ones feelings will be hurt by a post than moving topics to the proper venue.

MHO, YMMV, etc.
View Quote
I didn't even bother to look there, thanks
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 12:26:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Couple of things I like about PCCs in general.

1) I can shoot steel targets that are rated for handguns only with a rifle.
2) 9mm is a really good SBR caliber, specifically if you're wanting to SBR down to something PDW size (5.5 inch barrel, for example).  5.56 pretty much sucks out of barrels that short.  You could probably get away with 300 blackout or 7.62x39 in a 7.5 inch barrel, but they'd both still suffer performance-wise (unless shooting subsonic 300s in which case it wouldn't matter), and once you get to 7.5 to 10.5 inches, you're no longer in PDW territory.
3) Cheap ammo.
4) If you ever want to do a carbine class, it's going to cost a lot less to feed a 9mm than a 5.56.  They usually don't let you take reloads to these, but roughly $140 to $150 will buy a case of Wolf steel case ammo.  If they'll allow it, you can sometimes score factory reloads / factory remanufactured ammo for a bit cheaper still.
5) USPSA has a PCC division now.
6) Slaps targets harder than 22lr when plinking recreationally.  Makes it more entertaining when blasting empty coke cans.
7) They suppress well, if shooting suppressed is part of what you like to do.
8) Though the ammo is cheap, if I cast bullets for them, I can load them really cheap.  I can load cast 147gr 9mm for the same cost as some 22lr (about 8 cpr, on par with CCI Std Vel).
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 1:51:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. Cheap
2. Affordable ammo I can use in my pistol too
3. Low recoil
4. Excellent for teaching new shooters due to the low recoil and quiet report
5. Suppress better than a rifle (shit is quiet as hell, yo)
6. Generally pretty damn reliable
7. Easy to clean (most of them)

8. Fun as hell to shoot
+1
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 3:21:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:  I like my AR9 because it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 but with the same manual of arms, control layout, etc.

OTOH, I'd rather have an MP5.  But those are 2x-4x the price of an AR9.

Kel-Tec Sub2k is worth a look as a trunk gun that will function with the same mags as your pistol (potentially).
Trunk gun?  I carry it in my murse:

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/img/products/original/kel_tec_sub2000_semiauto_rifle_1302852_2.jpg
And @Subnet can fit it in the Miata.  
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 3:34:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
For some shooters, the single biggest attraction of a PCC is that they can be used on indoor ranges which do not allow centerfire rifle cartridges. If you don't have your own range, and/or live in an area of the country where the weather is terrible much of the year, that can be a big deal.
View Quote
Several outdoor ranges are this way too, especially ones close to housing.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 4:42:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And @Subnet can fit it in the Miata.  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  I like my AR9 because it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 but with the same manual of arms, control layout, etc.

OTOH, I'd rather have an MP5.  But those are 2x-4x the price of an AR9.

Kel-Tec Sub2k is worth a look as a trunk gun that will function with the same mags as your pistol (potentially).
Trunk gun?  I carry it in my murse:

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/img/products/original/kel_tec_sub2000_semiauto_rifle_1302852_2.jpg
And @Subnet can fit it in the Miata.  
The Miata has been replaced with a Mustang. 
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 4:51:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Cheaper to shoot
My local range has a bunch of steel targets on the pistol side.
I love ARs in all shapes and sizes

My 9mm AR pistol has become my absolute favorite gun I've ever shot.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 5:16:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The Miata has been replaced with a Mustang. 
View Quote
Seems a little extreme to replace a car because you were too lazy to check a glove box for a lug nut key.  
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 9:21:36 PM EDT
[#40]
For me, it's the fact that stuff like the pistol brace and binary triggers let me get 9/10ths of a submachine gun without paying SMG money. You can build a tiny gun that can be suppressed easily and shoot almost like a F/A or 2 round burst. Tons of fun.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 10:37:07 PM EDT
[#41]
I always said that I would never get a pistol caliber carbine unless it could be a suppressed SBR. Once supressors were allowed in my state, it went on the short list. Most people compare the report to the sound of a roofing nailer. I've never been sorry that I had it. It's just fun to shoot and always goes to the range with me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:29:01 PM EDT
[#42]
For me it just plain old fun. Also my 9mm AR doesn't put out the blast that the the 556 does. Its even less blast than my 9mm hand gun. I often don't shoot beyond 100 yards so a 9mm AR is perfect.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 11:31:59 PM EDT
[#43]
I can shoot PCC classes in matches, especially local steel matches.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:49:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My PCC's are "game guns"....I use them for USPSA and Steel shoots. I have had more fun shooting in PCC devision then limited, SS, or production combined.
View Quote
This for me also
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Alright you've all convinced me!

I will eventually build a PCC!  Just waiting for that pesky thing called money
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:23:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
For some shooters, the single biggest attraction of a PCC is that they can be used on indoor ranges which do not allow centerfire rifle cartridges. If you don't have your own range, and/or live in an area of the country where the weather is terrible much of the year, that can be a big deal.
View Quote
I don't have a range with this issue around me that I'm aware of, but there is at least one outside range that has a steel range for Pistol Calibers only between their rim fire/hand gun and 30yard anything but shotgun ranges.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:30:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1. Cheap
2. Affordable ammo I can use in my pistol too
3. Low recoil
4. Excellent for teaching new shooters due to the low recoil and quiet report
5. Suppress better than a rifle (shit is quiet as hell, yo)
6. Generally pretty damn reliable
7. Easy to clean (most of them)
8. Fun as hell to shoot
View Quote
In an nutshell  WebleyMKVI is totally correct!!!
1. +1  reason I got one (not rim fire but cheaper than 556 especially if you don't mind stuff like blazer aluminum case on clearance .13 each)
2. +1  see reason 1 - also works with the better brass stuff and I use one of those velcro Caldwell brass catchers
3. +1  the spring makes some noise but I don't think it's as much recoil as a 16in 223 (my pcc is a pistol set up PSA glock AR9 with 12 in barrel)
4. +1  2nd main reason I got it (less blast out of Kak Can on muzzle at in door range seems to help minimize "perceived recoil" in my opinion.)
(side note on 4 - few years ago when my kid was 11 he was able to shoot really well with the Beretta CX4 -rented at local range- because of the way it is balanced - it seems to piviot on the hang grip so not very front heavy... compared to an AR platform which was pretty front heavy for him... at that point even some of my 22lrs were front heavy for him... But the CX4 was great. If I could have found one then during the height of the gun ban scare a few years ago, I probably would have bought it.  now he can hold the 556 for a mag or two but still likes the AR9.  Built it cheaper than the Cx4 storm was at the time but i did not take the CX4 off the "wish list".
5. don't know personally but sounds good +1
6. +1  so far so good
7. +1  I don't really think that a typical ar is hard to clean, but this one is just a wipe down, few dropps of clp here and ther, and back to town.
8. +1  TOTALLY fun to shoot!
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:55:17 PM EDT
[#48]
I currently have a 16" and a 10" 9mm upper, and I'm thinking hard about one a little shorter, but I'm not sure if <6" or about 8" is where I want to go though.  The carbine upper is (as bfoosh noted) really fun to shoot and quite easy to hit bullseyes at extended distances.  The SBR upper is even more fun.  I have a "do it all" SBR lower that runs like a top with a Rock River magazine block and Metalform, modified Uzi, and (yes!) old CProducts magazines, and a Glock-pattern lower (also SBR'd) that is just as much fun.

What about this "fun" thing?  All of these combinations have a light recoil, low report and very good accuracy.  I can feed them with anything from cheap Winchester White Box 115 grain stuff to handloaded 124 grain lead bullets to heavy bullets, and I'm not spending nearly as much per shot as with even cheap .223 ammunition.  I get trigger time, sight alignment practice, and all the other things that go along with hitting the range, without any issues relating to "steel bullets," fire hazards, etc.  In other words, I can shoot more for less money in more places.  That is fun!
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 10:30:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My PCC's are "game guns"....I use them for USPSA and Steel shoots. I have had more fun shooting in PCC devision then limited, SS, or production combined.
View Quote
I agree . I shoot a bereta 92f in production and picked up a storm because they use the same magazine . I shot my carbine for the first time in a match this year and had a blast . My time improved and I had more a zone hits .
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 9:27:59 AM EDT
[#50]
They are a blast to shoot!  Here is my 9mm PCCO for Steel Challenge.

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