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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 8/18/2003 4:48:47 PM EDT
I have a AR carbine that has kinda been sitting in the back of the safe for a long time. But now that I am getting an ACOG I will have an Aimpoint freed up to go on something else. I figure this 16" carbine would be a good option. But this carbine has a carry handle so I am not sure what would be the best mounting option. So far I have been looking at the gooseneck mounts. I have also looked at getting a new handguard set with rails, that way I can mount the Aimpoint far forward and have the means to attach other goodies such as lights and vertical forward grip. But whatever I do, I want to have the ability for the Aimpoint to co-witness with with the front and rear sights. Will either or both of these mounting options allow this with a carry handle? Or will either?

Thanks,

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 4:57:36 PM EDT
SIR#51
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:03:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 5:04:18 PM EDT by new-arguy]
Kevin, thats silly. I cant believe you would say that. Everyone knows the best option would be the ARMS SIR #51...
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:24:32 PM EDT
[LOLabove] You kill me...
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:57:00 PM EDT
Guys, guys, I respect both of you tremendously, but I am afraid I am gonna have to ignore your recommendations and instead go with the SIR #51! [:D] -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 6:10:41 PM EDT
Holy Crap, if I had even mentioned that #, I'd have been tarred and feathered and run out a town on a rail, but I respect your opinions. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:01:53 PM EDT
Whoa, I just went and hunted up an SIR # 51 and I must say that it looks like something from a Star Wars movie! That thing is kinda weird looking actually. It may have to grow on me a bit before I buy it. Does it have rails at 12 and 6 o' clock or does it have 4 rails, with one at 6, 12, 9 and 3? I also located the much less expensive Fobus M-33 that has 2 rails. That should give me a spot to mount the sight on top, a light on the bottom and still have room for the vertical grip. I must admit that I much prefer the looks of the Fobus. But is this a decent handguard system and will it still co-witness? Again, I am not ruling out the SIR #51 just yet, just considering other possibilities. Thanks, -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:21:46 PM EDT
Fobus... Surely you jest. If you think that route go for a KAC RAS.... The SIR's have rails at 12-3-6-9.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:15:49 PM EDT
[url]http://www.jtdistributing.com/ar15/knights_armament.shtml[/url]......Knights Armament M-4 RAS (Rail Adaptor System) M4 RAS for CAR Length Barrels Check this out, it's the second one down. Is this what I want? My 16" carbine isn't an M4, rather a 16" post-ban Colt Lightweight w/ carry handle. But I assume this will work with any carbine? I like the free-float ability too. I wasn't counting on getting that added bonus until I read up about the KAC RAS. It is still rather expensive but IMHO, looks 10 times better than the SIR #51 while being much better quality than the Fobus. So I guess I will most likely pick up one of these unless someone steers me in another direction. Thanks for the info Kevin. I guess I am just a little old fashioned when it comes to my AR's. Heck, up until about a year ago I thought it was a sin to put a scope on one of them! LOL. But I am warming up to mods now that I have started to use them and see the improvement they make to the weapon system. I think the KAC RAS will serve me well while still not drastically altering the appearance of my AR. BTW, you guys have helped me so much lately in the way of optics, lights, mounts, etc that I will owe you folks a ton of pics. I will try to get some soon, that is if I can afford the film and processing after all of these upgrades! LOL. Thanks again all. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:25:08 PM EDT
The ARMS #39 gooseneck isn't so bad. [img]http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0RAB4KYUTMYtPpMXj7jWBwCaO279RLpqUFuiT5EZjEAUf­WbarcYweju4DkwpzE06uYSQ65nOnFaXBooVwLxT3RWa2L­B2qlkJfTkamrhx1dfQ/Range%20018.jpg?dc=4675418926521696297[/img] [img]http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0TQA4KQoWF0nqL!HZE4xdU!8qQiSIVRf9n11A8zk9kZAQ­F7dWCGoNSKghsRS*HHhH0*qCcXETbrJhrn4KZWO8nomci­lV6SPBc0X6!pBYdtwgpbBSJGS0ByQ/Finished%20AR1%20015.jpg?dc=4675419207762147114[/img]
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:54:12 PM EDT
The ARMS #39 would work, otherwise a new flattop upper receiver is $90 and you could recoup a good deal of the cost by selling off your old carryhandle upper.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 10:47:18 PM EDT
The regular M4 RAS does not free float the barrel. The Carbine FF RAS will, and I did not see it on the J&T page you linked. The FF RAS will require some smithing to install. Just make sure you get a FF RAS if you want to put optics on it. Some in the military do put optics on the M4RAS, but over time, you will lose zero.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 10:03:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By knightone: The regular M4 RAS does not free float the barrel. The Carbine FF RAS will, and I did not see it on the J&T page you linked. The FF RAS will require some smithing to install. Just make sure you get a FF RAS if you want to put optics on it. Some in the military do put optics on the M4RAS, but over time, you will lose zero.
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Well darn, I had no idea the M4 RAS was not optics worthy. Oh well, I guess I will forget this option too since my whole purpose was to use the M4 RAS for the optic. I am also not much good at "smithing" either and I really don't have anyone competent in my area that does gun work, so I guess I will just forget the KAC stuff altogether. I want something I can do on my own. Too bad, I really like the way it looks. Thanks for the info though. I am glad to find out it's shortcomings before buying it. In the end I may just use the simple Aimpoint forward carry handle mount with a railgrabber and just use a Sure Fire 660 with barrel mount and pressure tape. That way I can keep the original handguards and save a considerable amount of money in the process. Or I may go with the ARMS #39 Gooseneck mentioned above. Afterall I am only looking for something simple that will work. I could care less if it's the latest and greatest high-priced gadgets on the market, as long as it works. If I can't find a decent means of mounting the Aimpoint for (or under) $300, and be able to do the work myself, I will just leave it off and use the irons. LOL. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 10:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2003 10:40:32 AM EDT by KevinB]
CH, The RAS will work for optics. I would not put the front ring to a magnified optic on one but for a red dot it will more than serve. It works with a PAC4C [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=1084[/img] and it works as well with an EOTECH [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=8098[/img] I'm not sure exactly what the #51 SIR cost right now but i would guess $340 ish and the ARMS #22m68 for Aimpoint would be a bit more on top of that but it would give you the ideal drop in FF modular system
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 11:19:47 AM EDT
Thanks again Kevin for the good input. I am glad to know the standard RAS will work with red dot optics. I just plan to use an Aimpoint, not anything with magnification. I wish to use my Aimpoint in the same exact manner as the EO Tech in that pic you showed, so it should suffice nicely. But I will still consider the SIR #51 as well. While it may not be as visually pleasing as some of the others, I guess it's ability to work well is ultimately what is most important. It may grow on me over time. Hehe. I think there are just too many options these days when it comes to mounts, optics, rails, etc. While that can be good, it sure does confuse people like me! Thankfully I have the ARF.com support group here to assist me. Haha. Thanks, -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 12:33:54 PM EDT
Tzyck, that's a nice setup you have there. Two questions, though. 1.) Is that a FIRSH on yours? 2.) What kind of light is that? It looks like the setup I would like as far as lights go: mounted on a scope ring, as far forward as possible. Ghost
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 2:02:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2003 2:05:07 PM EDT by mrcr0603]
#51 pictures, just in case .... [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/pca64760fbd44d96f415c27b1f15bc8b2/fc8f490b.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p7b8c01e085a21406586a0397a07b5d04/fc8f4906.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p76e2459c0df53fb7722238e95388aa8d/fc8f4907.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p7caec965fcfb1f8a08d9993fd68e8820/fc8f4909.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p3970d3439bc479d42b2623a7ae06825f/fc8f490d.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/pa874796b1445ea1a3965f2c0e78847f4/fc8f490c.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p15e600c0c2493da7874e2daac320a330/fc8af383.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pa800570d6f74006cff35bb8cc53e60b4/fc404f59.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pca64a97d1d111fe6ef96f8b690497b27/fc404f62.jpg[/img] Chris
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 6:42:27 PM EDT
Chris, Thanks for posting those pics. I must admit that seeing the SIR # 51 actually on a rifle has changed my opinion. Looking at it alone, it's the most fugly thing I ever saw. But seeing it on the carbine, it doesn't look so bad. In fact, it's kinda neat looking. Like I said before, maybe it'll grow on me. Hehe. I also like that ARFX stock. I notice you have two different lights and two different forward vertical grips. I think that one is the Sure Fire 500 and grip, but what it the other one? Which set-up do you most like? -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 10:21:17 PM EDT
Not to throw water on anyone but the RAS will not work with a light weight barrel. You have to go with the older RIS. The RIS gets loose. Too loose for me to trust with optics. That is why I went with a flat top for my last build. Your best bet is either the FF RAS, which will require the removal of the flash hider and the front sight tower to install. Once installed the FF RAS is one of the greatest forearm rails made. Or the SIR #51. The 51 free floats the barrel and is easily installed and removed. Another option is to go with a goose neck mount and if your looking for a light get the Surefire M500 forarm light. This would be the lightest of all your options yet gives you the Aimpoint out front and low and a light mounted to the rifle. Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 11:32:57 PM EDT
Would an Eotech mounted forweard on the SIR 51 Co-witness?
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 12:07:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: Chris, Thanks for posting those pics. I must admit that seeing the SIR # 51 actually on a rifle has changed my opinion. Looking at it alone, it's the most fugly thing I ever saw. But seeing it on the carbine, it doesn't look so bad. In fact, it's kinda neat looking. Like I said before, maybe it'll grow on me. Hehe. I also like that ARFX stock. I notice you have two different lights and two different forward vertical grips. I think that one is the Sure Fire 500 and grip, but what it the other one? Which set-up do you most like? -Charging Handle
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I also like the ARFX stock. Very well made and tough! The integrated light/grip combo is an M900. The other setup, with the KAC grip, is a Surefire 6P handheld light with a pushbutton tailcap and Z32 shock-isolated bezel, mounted in a KAC 1" flashlight mount. To turn the light on, I slightly rotate my hand that's holding the KAC grip, which pushes my knuckle into the button on the tailcap. Chris
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 12:10:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Would an Eotech mounted forweard on the SIR 51 Co-witness?
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[i]Since no one has replied to you yet ....[/i] I had a Reflex mounted on an ARMS #15 with NO spacer, and there was NO WAY you were going to use the irons through the sight. I mention this because the Reflex and EOTech have similar body designs. Hope it helps .... Chris
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 12:40:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 12:58:55 PM EDT
Another option is to go with a goose neck mount and if your looking for a light get the Surefire M500 forarm light. This would be the lightest of all your options yet gives you the Aimpoint out front and low and a light mounted to the rifle.
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Well, after carefully sleeping on it and thinking it over again today, the above option is the one I have decided to go with. Since my carbine is a lightweight, I want to keep it as light as possible. This looks like a solid option to me as well. The Aimpoint will go on the ARMS gooseneck, I will keep the factory carbine handguards in place and place a mounting rail underneath. From this I will attach the Sure Fire light and grip combo (either an M500 or M900) and be done with it. This appears to be as good as any way of achieving what I set out to do. It also looks like one of the more affordable options. Now, I just have one more question.....what would be a good tactical sling for a set-up like this? I imagine the original sling location up front will cause it to become tangled with the light and be a general mess. It would be nice if I could have a sling that would allow the gun to be held in a ready to fire position. Would the Giles Tac sling be a good one? Will I need the GG&G front sight 'Sling Thing'? And being that I have an A2 buttsock instead of car stock, how will it attach there? -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 1:21:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 2:55:44 PM EDT
Thanks Troy. I was just visiting the Lightfighter website getting a list of some of this stuff as well as prices. I believe I saw some of the CQB Solutions stuff while I was there. I will go have another look-see. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 9:03:23 PM EDT
Might I suggest another option for your sling. Our SWAT and Narcs have been using the Sling Systems sling for several years now. I have had one on my duty rifle for over 2 years now and love it. Our teams run Surefire M500A lights with the LED nav lights. The Sling Systems sling front mount does not interfere with the nav lights. [url]http://www.slingsystem.com[/url] Here is a pic of the front sling mount. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/054117.jpg[/img] If you go with this sling make sure to order the SLING SYSTEM SLING, not the EZ Sling. The EZ sling sucks.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 9:07:12 PM EDT
OH SHIT HOLD THE PHONE! I seem to recall someone saying that the ARMS #39 will not fit over the top of a Surefire M500. You may have to go with the Aimpoint goose neck instead. The Aimpoint is probably cheeper too.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 6:52:30 AM EDT
Here is a picture of my Colt with the fixed carry handle. (sorry for the crap quality picture) [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=16408[/img] I got the ARMS 39 Gooseneck and put the aimpoint on it.. can't complain too much, other than it's slightly front heavy with the HBAR barrel.. ah well.. :) Incidently, that's the CQB sling and I absolutely love it. Very comfortable!
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 11:36:03 AM EDT
Does the ARMS 39 Gooseneck rest slightly above the forearm? I'm thinking of getting an Aimpoint M2 w/a gooseneck. Is it easy for a novice to co-witness? Also if the Aimpoint was mounted on top of the carry handle, does the ARMS 39 have a channel so the iron sights can be used? I'd like to have the option. Who carries the best price on ARMS & Aimpoint? thanks!
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 2:33:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By biteworks13: Does the ARMS 39 Gooseneck rest slightly above the forearm? I'm thinking of getting an Aimpoint M2 w/a gooseneck. Is it easy for a novice to co-witness? Also if the Aimpoint was mounted on top of the carry handle, does the ARMS 39 have a channel so the iron sights can be used? I'd like to have the option. Who carries the best price on ARMS & Aimpoint? thanks!
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Yes it rests above the handguards. The 39 apparently will NOT work with M4 handguards, however, so this may be an issue. The front of the gooseneck has a little metal piece that prevents brush from getting up under the gooseneck (supposedly.. never been an issue for me). Mine cowitnesses perfectly. There is a channel to use the iron sights with the 39 mount attached, as well. All in all it's a "cheap" way to set up an aimpoint.. works well, but adds just a little weight towards the front of the rifle. I got my aimpoint from riflescopes.com and I believe the 39 came from WES.
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 9:23:58 AM EDT
Tzyck (or anyone), Does the M68 ARMS Aimpoint ring mount need either a full spacer or half spacer in order to co-witness on the ARMS #39? Or does it work fine as is? Thanks, -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 12:42:32 PM EDT
It looks like the #39 barely clears the hand guards. Does anyone know if it fits full length weapons or is it for carbines only? GG
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 3:50:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 8:07:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: It looks like the #39 barely clears the hand guards. Does anyone know if it fits full length weapons or is it for carbines only? GG
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It should fit any length hanguard except for M4 guards (because they are more oval shaped I believe).
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:18:28 AM EDT
I've had good luck with the Aimpoint Forward handle mount with Railgrabber mount on a fixed handle AR. [IMG]http://www.swfa.com/riflescopes/aimpoint/M16.jpg[/IMG]
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