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2/21/2020 11:35:28 PM
Posted: 10/24/2004 12:10:23 AM EST
I love the VLTOR stock. I feel that its better than any other traditional collapsible on the market. I do, however, feel that it suffers from a few of the same traditional shortcomings that other stocks do. This is not saying that the VLTOR is a bad stock, quite the contrary. I would just like to see it being the best that it can be.

I, for one, have four simple suggestions:

1. A longer body. An added 0.5-0.75" would make it much easier to shoot closed, and would still allow for usage with armor.

2. An optional buttpad similar to that of the Crane. It would have to have a better attachment method than the Crane, and they could be had in several different lengths to adjust LOP with a fully-closed stock. I'd personally like them to be semi-grippy (not quite as grippy as the Crane), but not TOO grippy.

3. Squaring of the toe is a must. It digs into your shoulder after extended sessions with the rifle. ALL collapsibles suffer this problem, but the VLTOR isn't as bad as most. I'd just like for it to be the best.

4. Elimination of the top sling notch. In real life, it's just another obstruction that will bug the piss out of you in the unorthodox positions that you sometimes have to be in to take "the shot".

Put these features on a VLTOR CAR Clubfoot stock, and I think it'd be the Ultimate drop-in replacement M4 stock.

I would also add, that I'd like for the replies in the thread to pertain to the Practical Usage of the carbine in a tactical situation. If it's something you'd like to see for range-only use, or aesthetic value, then save it for your own thread. Sorry to be an ass, but I don't want this to turn into the "blue ring" VLTOR variant.

Also note that this has not been mentioned to VLTOR as of yet, but I hope Eric will take it all with an open mind, as he has done in the past. You the man, Eric!

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:25:30 AM EST
I love mine, the only thing I would change would be including some soft foam inserts to keep batteries and such from shaking around. Oh, and the option of attaching a sling to the bottom of the stock like on a conventional collapsable.

Digital
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:51:54 AM EST
Foam inserts are a good idea, much like TD uses w/ their BattleGrip. I should have thought of that one. They'd be a nice option.

The sling swivel on the bottom isn't one of my favorites though. It's just something else to catch on gear, and cause discomfort in some of the less than ideal shooting positions.

But then again, that's just what I think Why do you feel the bottom sling swivel would be necessary?

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:10:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
Why do you feel the bottom sling swivel would be necessary?

-Cap'n



I don't think it should come attached to the stock, but have a little slot there to attach one if the user prefers. I myself wouldn't use it, it was just an idea as many people use two-point slings across the bottom.

Digital
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:28:32 AM EST
To keep batteries from bouncing around I took an old, shot out, recoil spring from my 1911 and cut it to get 2 pieces about an inch long. I dropped one in each tube and followed with 3 Surefire batteries. The batteries where flush with the end of the tube. The cap puts just enough pressure to keep everything quiet without too much force. Unlike foam, these won't sack out. To keep it quiet when you use batteries out of the tube, slide everything out and put the spent batteries in then the spring. Top off the tube with your fresh batteries.
I suspect you could find springs at a hardware store if you don't have spent 1911 recoil springs laying about.
Just my $.02 worth.
Ed
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:41:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:59:10 AM EST
OH another idea. Since the stock has that little hole at the top I numbered all the positions so I could quickly slide it open and confirm I'm in my comfort spot. It'd be nice if the buffer tubes came numbered or had numbers stamped in them so I could add a little white paint and make for faster viewing of the stock's position.

Digital
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:02:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:34:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 9:37:50 AM EST by MonkeyGrip]
What's wrong with the LMT SOPMOD (Crane)? It's got the buttpad and no top sling attach point already. I'm not sure what you mean by the "toe" problem.

I have the LMT SOPMOD (my first choice) and have selected the Vltor for my second build (I don't have one yet).
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:40:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
What's wrong with the LMT SOPMOD (Crane)?



Price for most people. It's my stock of choice, but some don't want to or can't spend that kind of money.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:44:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
What's wrong with the LMT SOPMOD (Crane)? It's got the buttpad and no top sling attach point already. I'm not sure what you mean by the "toe" problem.

I have the LMT SOPMOD (my first choice) and have selected the Vltor for my second build (I don't have one yet).



Price!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 11:34:06 AM EST
Why are you so concerned about shooting with a fully closed stock? Rubber buttpads in different lengths seems useless on a stock that is already collapsible to five positions.

Another company already makes a slip-on rubber buttpad for the Vltor, which might square the toe enough as you desire, but the toe isn't really that much sharper than a standard stock. Its just longer top to bottom, which may either 1) cause the optical illusion that it is more pointy, or 2) you are putting the top of the stock in the same place, forcing the longer bottom to dig into your shoulder. Look at this photo next to a Colt stock, the bottom curve is almost identical:


"Elimination of the top sling notch." It never got in my way- what positions where you in when it caused interference- was it a sling mounted there that was in the way, or just the empty notch? You can easily Dremel that off I guess.

My improvements to the Vltor:
Longer stock (like LMT).

The inclusion of a slot in the plastic lower area for simple 2pt use (as opposed to a protruding metal loop) was a good suggestion mentioned above. I'd keep the QD mounting hole, but move it up to the bottom of the tube to prevent excessive roll. Some shooters are limited due to the type of sling they have or are issued, such as the newer 680's with built-in QD mounts.

My biggest gripe with the Vltor were the extremely tight storage tube caps and the little tiny "handles" on them. They really dug into my fingertip and were a general big PITA to remove.


Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:24:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kisara:



My biggest gripe with the Vltor were the extremely tight storage tube caps and the little tiny "handles" on them. They really dug into my fingertip and were a general big PITA to remove.





That's my biggest complaint as well, Make the caps easier to open. Other then that, the stock is perfect! It's still my first choice over the competitors.

ls
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:31:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 12:31:55 PM EST by Duffy]
I'd like to see more modular accessories for the Vltor, if the storage tubes are the only accessory, which almost all of us use instead of the flat panels it also comes with, then the tubes might as well be a permanent fixture. What on earth could you put there instead of the tubes though? Unimaginative mind wants to know
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 12:54:24 PM EST
A shorter, but slightly larger diameter tube that attaches underneath one of the existing tubes. The holes in stock could be used to mount it. The purpose being to store an extra bolt.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:09:21 PM EST

I use the cheek-weld adapter on the left and the battery tube on the right. The reason for this is that I found that in the fully closed position my Troy sling on a CQD plate would hang up a bit on the tube. Also it was very hard to get the sling off in the closed position.

I like this setup, it really free's up the sling and makes it more low profile. I don't think I'll need 2 tubes full of 123's. One tube with 123's and 4 N's in the Tango Down grip seem good enough for me.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 1:12:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 2:50:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
A securely fixed rubber buttpad would be enough for me




+


Denny on the EE sells the pad
Clickum Linkum
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:25:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:13:50 PM EST
Quick response:

Numbering the tube- Neat idea! I like that.
Extra-length for use w/ fully-closed stock- Cheek weld. I don't like the half-on/half-off feel when the stock is at a proper position.
Buttpad- Fixed/semi-fixed is prefereable. No slip on stuff.
Caps- Use some silicon spray lube on the rubber part. I like them a lot more than the Crane style.

I'll reply more in length when I get a chance.

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:33:21 PM EST
FWIW the CF has the slip on buttpads - they suck for duty usage as they get caught on kit and will eventually fall off (typically at the wrong time)

I used a VLTOR for 3 months in Afghan (my boss stopdropped the M93A)

My issues which already all seem to have been addressed
- the top sling attachment has to go (already mentioned)
- battery noise
- ease of removal of the tube caps.

One other issue I found was the tube was original tight to the stock but that fricking dust got in it and started to eat the stock (ever time it opened and closed). Would a rubber O ring be possible on both ends so dirt and shit does not get on the tube and then rub against the stock?
It also might be easier to say - heck 6 months is a desert - get a new stock...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:36:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:39:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I took sandwhich baggies, dropped my Aimpoint and Surefire batteries into them and twisted them into sticks that dont rattle inside the tubes.



Your just brighter than the rest of us...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:49:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:57:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
1. A longer body. An added 0.5-0.75" would make it much easier to shoot closed, and would still allow for usage with armor.


NO! It's perfect just the way it is. I like that it's just the right length full open, unlike my 6pos M4 stock.
I would think over body armor, that it would be just right closed. I know it's perfect in shirt sleeves full open.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:23:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 6:26:15 PM EST by CJan_NH]

I love mine, the only thing I would change would be including some soft foam inserts to keep batteries and such from shaking around. Oh, and the option of attaching a sling to the bottom of the stock like on a conventional collapsable.

Disposable foam earplugs work great to keep the batteries from rattling in the tubes. As an added bonus, if someone forgets their muffs you'll have them covered.

The only things I dislike about my Vltor carbine stock are the battery caps. Not only would I like them easier to remove, I'd also like the option to tether them to the stock. When you drop one in the mud on a rainy day it's a cast iron bitch to find it.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:46:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Disposable foam earplugs work great to keep the batteries from rattling in the tubes. As an added bonus, if someone forgets their muffs you'll have them covered.




+1

I do the exact same thing. 2 AA batteries plus two foam earplugs (one between the batteries) equals a perfectly snug fit with no rattle whatsoever.

As mentioned earlier, It might be nice to have the compartment on one of the sides made large enough to fit a spare bolt.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:03:12 PM EST
The thing is, if you're satisfied with the length, etc, you could always just buy the standard stocks. I kinda thought that this would be a nice addition, like the A1 length fixed stock.

I have to say, I'd be more than happy with the things I initially listed. More to come later.

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 8:07:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Digitalpunk:
OH another idea. Since the stock has that little hole at the top I numbered all the positions so I could quickly slide it open and confirm I'm in my comfort spot. It'd be nice if the buffer tubes came numbered or had numbers stamped in them so I could add a little white paint and make for faster viewing of the stock's position.

Digital



I have actually thought about that for the little dimple's in my M93A stock.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:01:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:19:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By 123whisper:

Originally Posted By Digitalpunk:
OH another idea. Since the stock has that little hole at the top I numbered all the positions so I could quickly slide it open and confirm I'm in my comfort spot. It'd be nice if the buffer tubes came numbered or had numbers stamped in them so I could add a little white paint and make for faster viewing of the stock's position.

Digital



I have actually thought about that for the little dimple's in my M93A stock.




Cute, but wouldnt do you a damn bit of good in anything but bright light.

Better to learn your stock by feel as to where its adjusted to.



Yes and No and Yes

Yes, I agree, having numbers on a Vltor like T numbers on a flat top would be pointless in anything but bright light.

No, filling in the dimples of the M93A stock with paint would make the difference of a dimple and a bump.

Yes, that would be a tactile difference. Sight and Feel. Muscle memory would eventually be faster, but the little bump would promote and reinforce muscle memory, I think.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:41:00 PM EST
a plastic lanyard on these little caps would by nice
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 1:19:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Friendly_Sponge:
As mentioned earlier, It might be nice to have the compartment on one of the sides made large enough to fit a spare bolt.


That'd be a bit on the big side wouldn't it? Besides, Mag-Pul has us covered, when the new grip ships anyway.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 2:05:31 AM EST
BTT one last time...

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:59:29 AM EST
How about the latch.

The clubfoot uses the "butterfly latch" the standard model uses the standard latch. I see some users switching to the butterfly on the standard model.

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:59:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Capn_Crunch:
I love the VLTOR stock. I feel that its better than any other traditional collapsible on the market. I do, however, feel that it suffers from a few of the same traditional shortcomings that other stocks do. This is not saying that the VLTOR is a bad stock, quite the contrary. I would just like to see it being the best that it can be.

I, for one, have four simple suggestions:

1. A longer body. An added 0.5-0.75" would make it much easier to shoot closed, and would still allow for usage with armor.

2. An optional buttpad similar to that of the Crane. It would have to have a better attachment method than the Crane, and they could be had in several different lengths to adjust LOP with a fully-closed stock. I'd personally like them to be semi-grippy (not quite as grippy as the Crane), but not TOO grippy.

3. Squaring of the toe is a must. It digs into your shoulder after extended sessions with the rifle. ALL collapsibles suffer this problem, but the VLTOR isn't as bad as most. I'd just like for it to be the best.

4. Elimination of the top sling notch. In real life, it's just another obstruction that will bug the piss out of you in the unorthodox positions that you sometimes have to be in to take "the shot".

Put these features on a VLTOR CAR Clubfoot stock, and I think it'd be the Ultimate drop-in replacement M4 stock.

I would also add, that I'd like for the replies in the thread to pertain to the Practical Usage of the carbine in a tactical situation. If it's something you'd like to see for range-only use, or aesthetic value, then save it for your own thread. Sorry to be an ass, but I don't want this to turn into the "blue ring" VLTOR variant.

Also note that this has not been mentioned to VLTOR as of yet, but I hope Eric will take it all with an open mind, as he has done in the past. You the man, Eric!

-Cap'n



+ 1...



...million
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:49:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 12:50:36 PM EST by BUCC_Guy]
I got to handle a Vltor for the first time this weekend (bear with me, I live in the middle of nowhere) and the reports are snagging facial hair are true. A few seconds of putting my cheek down and rubbing caused some nasty pulling...

Then again, those battery compartments and the way they attach are not only Vltor's main feature but they seperate the stock from competitors. So maybe this isn't really something that can be addressed...

Either way, I was pleased with my cheekweld on the Vltor but have to go with a Crane for my next build, very nice weld and it leaves my beard where it should be... on my face.


- BG


Edit: YMMV, I don't own a Vltor... I only got to play with one.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:56:13 PM EST
I would also like to see a slightly larger 'accessory' tube offered. I would like one that would hold one of those small bottles of Break Free + a bore snake or other small cleaning tools.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:46:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 3:47:47 PM EST by militarymoron]

Originally Posted By LordStoner:

Originally Posted By Kisara:


My biggest gripe with the Vltor were the extremely tight storage tube caps and the little tiny "handles" on them. They really dug into my fingertip and were a general big PITA to remove.




That's my biggest complaint as well, Make the caps easier to open. Other then that, the stock is perfect! It's still my first choice over the competitors.

ls



i dealt with that issue when they first came out and my no-brainer solution has worked very well for me in the past year. (username and password are both 'mm' to view larger pics)
www.militarymorons.com/weapons/weapons.2.html#modmod
cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:29:45 PM EST
MM - crap I forgot all about that - I meant to do that too...

thx
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:05:36 AM EST
I would make it easier to instal >=(

The tube keeps bindingbefore i can get it to the pin.
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