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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/27/2005 12:27:53 AM EDT
I have 14 mags and enough ammo to keep them filled with either XM193 or Black Hills 68 Gr. OTM. I have a stock pile of XM193 for SHTF and 600 of the Black Hills 68 Gr. OTM for home defense. I currently have 2 mags loaded with the black hills which stay with the rifle at all times and the rest have XM193 in them for SHTF. But I was thinking that since the black hills has better terminal performance, maybe I should keep that in the mags for SHTF use instead of the XM193. Then again maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

So what do you all think?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:13:40 AM EDT
I'd wear the boxers on Monday, Wed, & Friday and the briefs on Sun, Tuesday & Thursday..........

oops, sorry wrong answer, but then it is after all "your" choice to begin with......

Why not be a man and make your own choices.

Mike

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:04:04 AM EDT


I would think that a 55gr round and a 68gr round from two different manufactureres would have a different POI (Point of Impact) or zero.

Both rounds seem like excellent choices for defensive situations or SHTF. Whatever you zero your weapon with is what you need to load in your mags.

Keep the other ammo in the can for SHTF. (Does that rhyme or what!)

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:24:31 AM EDT
XM193.

Leave the gimmick ammo to the commandouches!
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:29:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
XM193.

Leave the gimmick ammo to the commandouches!



Yup
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:33:26 AM EDT
What about Q3131????
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:45:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jicky:
What about Q3131????



Q3131 is the American made Winchester 55grn. FMJ, while the same M193 bullet, it exhibits markedly less velocity than the XM193 he's asking about or even the Q3131A Israeli made variety.

BTW, he don't have any of that anyway, so don't confuse the poor boy as he can't decide which to load up between the 2 rounds he does have......

Mike
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:51:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

I would think that a 55gr round and a 68gr round from two different manufactureres would have a different POI (Point of Impact) or zero.




As it happens, from my weapon, with my ammo, Q3131A shoots to almost exactly the same POI as BH 75 grain OTM. Different ammo yes, but its worth checking with whatever types of ammo you're looking at.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:59:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kreutzberg:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

I would think that a 55gr round and a 68gr round from two different manufactureres would have a different POI (Point of Impact) or zero.




As it happens, from my weapon, with my ammo, Q3131A shoots to almost exactly the same POI as BH 75 grain OTM. Different ammo yes, but its worth checking with whatever types of ammo you're looking at.



Well stated, as my Q3131A POI matches my SHTF Black Hills (blue) 77grn. SMK ammo at 50 and 100 yards equally well.

Ya have to understand though, many guys around here "never" test the ammunition they stock and buy "in their own rifles", but simply rely on feedback given in threads like this......., not too smart IMO, but then that's why there are different strokes for different folks.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 10:42:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 12:36:48 PM EDT by blackeye]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By Kreutzberg:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

I would think that a 55gr round and a 68gr round from two different manufactureres would have a different POI (Point of Impact) or zero.




As it happens, from my weapon, with my ammo, Q3131A shoots to almost exactly the same POI as BH 75 grain OTM. Different ammo yes, but its worth checking with whatever types of ammo you're looking at.



Well stated, as my Q3131A POI matches my SHTF Black Hills (blue) 77grn. SMK ammo at 50 and 100 yards equally well.

Ya have to understand though, many guys around here "never" test the ammunition they stock and buy "in their own rifles", but simply rely on feedback given in threads like this......., not too smart IMO, but then that's why there are different strokes for different folks.

Mike



What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets? Do they match Q3131A out past the 100yd mark? 200yd mark? 300yd mark?

I carry XM193 in most of my mags for soft targets. For hard targets I have 55gr TBBC. My SHTF stash consists of a mix of Q3131A, XM193 and 55gr TBBC. They are all dead on POI at 300yds.

That isn't a "guess" but what I know from countless trips to the range and alot of money spent on trying different ammo.


ETA: It would be more helpful to the people asking good questions, if people would check their "attitudes and smart mouth" at the door and just stick to the info.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:26:02 PM EDT
TBBC, is that trophy bond bear claw? Is the 55 gr TBBC the same as the M855 ammo? Where did you buy it?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:37:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By Jicky:
What about Q3131????



Q3131 is the American made Winchester 55grn. FMJ, while the same M193 bullet, it exhibits markedly less velocity than the XM193 he's asking about or even the Q3131A Israeli made variety.



On what do you base this Comment?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By soflarick:
TBBC, is that trophy bond bear claw? Is the 55 gr TBBC the same as the M855 ammo? Where did you buy it?



Its a Federal .223 hunting soft point. M855 is 62 grain 5.56 with steel petetrator.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:56:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 3:59:43 PM EDT by DevL]
XM193 will fail to fragment about 1 out of every 4 bullets that fall within the velocity threshold for fragmentation. If that is OK to you then use that. I prefer the more rapid, more reliable, and more complete fragmentation of the OTM bullets. Notice the guy who promotes M193 over OTM is the guy who answers 87 to every 4th post post he has ever made. Coincidence? I think not!
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:21:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 4:26:46 PM EDT by blackeye]

Originally Posted By soflarick:
TBBC, is that trophy bond bear claw? Is the 55 gr TBBC the same as the M855 ammo? Where did you buy it?




(1) Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 55gr

(2) No, TBBC is a 55gr bullet where the jacket and core are bonded together for maximum penetration and expansion. Its made to hold together and not fragment unlike M855. Alot of testing was done on this round and it was proven to be one of the best performers (2nd) in windshield and auto structure ballistic testing. The best performer was the 62gr TBBC which is unavailable to the public.
le.atk.com/223data/223rifle.asp?pgtocall=7

(3) I think I got mine here www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=210665 But I'm sure you can hunt around other ammo websites and find it pretty easily.



Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:30:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
XM193 will fail to fragment about 1 out of every 4 bullets that fall within the velocity threshold for fragmentation.




Wow! Do you have some data or website we could look at that backs this statement up. I have never heard of this failure rate quoted before.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:56:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Originally Posted By DevL:
XM193 will fail to fragment about 1 out of every 4 bullets that fall within the velocity threshold for fragmentation.




Wow! Do you have some data or website we could look at that backs this statement up. I have never heard of this failure rate quoted before.




1 out of 4 aint bad at all for the price, considering that there are too many physical varriables in real world incidents to make any ammo 100%. No round is 100% and meets the minimum penetration criteria.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:00:58 PM EDT
see if you can find some 55gr hornady tap...or equivilent....i know taps are red tipped i think the civilan stuff is blue tip
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 9:17:03 PM EDT
I use a common technique employed by LE and Military snipers. I have tested and keep a chart for the zero settings of all the ammo I use in my M4, for the aimpoint and iron sights. For example, I keep a mag of 40gr Hornady TAP loaded for home defense, and windage/elevation is set for that ammo. And when I go to the range, I consult my chart, a few clicks here and there, and I am now ready to kill some paper with M193 or M855. Saves me alot of time and ammo, trying to re-zero for every range trip. I also use this technique for my AR-10, as I often shoot different weight/type bullets through it too. BTW, I always keep several mags loaded with each type of ammo at all times because.....you never know.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 4:37:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets? Do they match Q3131A out past the 100yd mark? 200yd mark? 300yd mark?

I carry XM193 in most of my mags for soft targets. For hard targets I have 55gr TBBC. My SHTF stash consists of a mix of Q3131A, XM193 and 55gr TBBC. They are all dead on POI at 300yds.

That isn't a "guess" but what I know from countless trips to the range and alot of money spent on trying different ammo.


ETA: It would be more helpful to the people asking good questions, if people would check their "attitudes and smart mouth" at the door and just stick to the info.




Q3131A is my plinking ammo, it shoots higher at 200 yards and at 300 yards than the BH (blue) 77grn. SMK which is my SHTF ammo, which is what is loaded into most of my magazines.

For plinking it's close enough, ya have to remember one thing though, and that is the Aimpoint 4 MOA dot covers 8" @ 200 and 1' @ 300 yards, so the Q3131A still hits the mark, as it ain't that far off high at these ranges.

Mike

ps -

what shoots the tightest group in "your" rifle?
what is 100% reliable in "your" rifle?
what is the "heaviest" round which exhibits good penetration and lethality in "your" twist rate?

This is what should be stocked in your mags....., it ain't rocket science here, just simple common sense. BTW nobody's said ya have to have all your mags loaded with just one round type, I have several different types loaded, but then I have boo-coo mags and 4 AR15s in differing configs....
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:34:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets? Do they match Q3131A out past the 100yd mark? 200yd mark? 300yd mark?






Q3131A is my plinking ammo, it shoots higher at 200 yards and at 300 yards than the BH (blue) 77grn. SMK which is my SHTF ammo, which is what is loaded into most of my magazines.







Like I asked you before and you still haven't answered yet, "What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets?"

All you did was state what Q3131A does with the zero on your rifle at 200 and 300yds?

How bad does it drop after a 100yds? You do know don't you?

After all it ain't rocket science, just simple common sense.



Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:09:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By Jicky:
What about Q3131????



Q3131 is the American made Winchester 55grn. FMJ, while the same M193 bullet, it exhibits markedly less velocity than the XM193 he's asking about or even the Q3131A Israeli made variety.

BTW, he don't have any of that anyway, so don't confuse the poor boy as he can't decide which to load up between the 2 rounds he does have......

Mike




No offense, but this information is incorrect.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:52:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
XM193.

Leave the gimmick ammo to the commandouches!



Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:27:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 4:47:21 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By blackeye:
Like I asked you before and you still haven't answered yet, "What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets?"

All you did was state what Q3131A does with the zero on your rifle at 200 and 300yds?

How bad does it drop after a 100yds? You do know don't you?

After all it ain't rocket science, just simple common sense.








Load: Sierra 77grn, moly-w/
24.0 grns. Accurate 2460, (Hot Load),
DO NOT PUSH, start low & work up - 2850fps + or - from 24" 1/9,
loaded into once fired Remington Brass
Remington 7.5 small rifle benchrest primers
These are loaded mag length - 2.250" + or -

Come-ups for 24" Colt Accurized Rifle (6724) w/ Leupold Vari-X III, 4.5x14 w/ turrets and Mil-Dots, using loads above.

100- zero
200-1 1/2 min
300-3 3/4 min
350-4 min
400-5 1/2 min
450-7 1/2 min
500-9 1/4 min
550-11 1/2 min
600-12 3/4 min
700-17 3/4 min
800-23 min
900- no target
1000-35 1/2 min (34-36 depending on humidity)

As to my Aimpoint equipped M4s shooting the Black Hills blue-box 77grn. smks
zero = 50 yards
@ 100 yards = 1.25" high
200 yards = dead on target
300 yards = 3" low for the 16", 4-5" for the 14.5"
400 yards = 6-7" low for the 16", 9-11" low for 14.5"

FWIW I don't shoot them past 400 yards, as I have a long range AR.

View from the back porch at the farm:



This is an 800 yard range, but we also have a private 1150 yard range not far from here where we shoot longer ranges.



Your correct I don't have a clue.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:38:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
No offense, but this information is incorrect.



From here: www.ammo-oracle.com

Q. Holy earache Batman! This Q3131A/Lake City XM193 is really loud and it launches a FIREBALL from my muzzle! Everyone at the range is looking at me now. What gives?

Yep.

Q3131A and XM193 are Mil-Spec M193. They mean business. They are loaded hotter than most commercial loads and you're likely to notice that as soon as you fire them--especially out of a 16" post-ban barrel without a flash hider, you are going to get quite a bit of blast and a fireball. Some M193 may have flash retardant, but it's just no match for a short barrel without a hider. Prepare yourself for surgery on your ears if you have one of those short barrels and a muzzle brake. Always wear eye and ear protection when shooting!


As noted above Q3131 is the American "commercial" produced Winchester round and moves at less MV than the XM193 or the Q3131A.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 8:31:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 8:36:12 AM EDT by Submariner]
Mr. Wilson: Where does it say that Q3131 moves at less MV? Where are chronograph results to support your statements? Q3131 is Mil-Spec M193.

From ammo oracle:

Winchester Q3131 and Winchester Q3131A are considered close seconds, perhaps indistinguishable seconds to Lake City M193. Both are Mil-Spec M193 but many AR15.com members have reported that LC is loaded a bit hotter.

Q3131 is the U.S.-manufactured Winchester M193, but since 2000 (and coinciding with the transition at the Lake City plant which left it shut down), Winchester's M193/Q3131 ammo has all gone to the military. Due to the demand during the Y2K scare, Winchester had subcontracted some of its civilian M193 production to IMI. Winchester has continued this contract, and the IMI-produced ammo is labeled Q3131A by Winchester.

Q3131A also is somewhat famous for its shining new cases. Lake City kept their production costs down by not polishing their brass before shipping. Since the military was their primary customer why bother making the rounds "pretty?" LC often has spots and other material on their cases (not that this seems to impact its stellar performance at all). Q3131A is much prettier looking, though still not as sparkling clean as commercial ammo that's been tumbled clean. XM193 also comes in boxes with plastic spacers. Many people find these annoying.

As you can see, the complaints about the two types of ammo are so trivial as to be almost not worth considering.

Link Posted: 9/29/2005 9:09:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Submariner:
Mr. Wilson: Where does it say that Q3131 moves at less MV? Where are chronograph results to support your statements



My statements are based on the fact that when picking my plinking/SHTF ammo many years ago (before 1/7 twist uppers and 77grn rounds were common) I bought XM193, Q3131A & Q3131 rounds to test and shoot.

XM193 is the hottest, Q3131A runs a close second, but at that time the difference between it ("A") and the Q3131 was as easily noticable when shooting, as the one between the XM193 and the Q3131A.

I owned no chrono at that time, but as the Q3131A won hands down in my rifles as holding the tightest group it got my nod, and it has been my plinking/SHTF until the 77s and the 1/7 twist barrels came on the scene.

FWIW, it's obvious to me that your

"Winchester Q3131 and Winchester Q3131A are considered close seconds, perhaps indistinguishable seconds to Lake City M193. Both are Mil-Spec M193"

comments are not what it used to read...., IIRC it use to say just the Q3131A, as back when I read the oracle there were still defect issues with certain lots of Q3131.

Appears to have been some edits to that paragraph at some point in time, doesn't change the results of my informal testing though way back when though. I will say I haven't shot any Q3131 in the last 5 years or more as the "A" has been my choice for quite some time.

YMMV,
Mike
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:03:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 10:16:25 AM EDT by Submariner]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Q3131 is the American made Winchester 55grn. FMJ, while the same M193 bullet, it exhibits markedly less velocity than the XM193 he's asking about or even the Q3131A Israeli made variety.
. . .
FWIW, it's obvious to me that your

"Winchester Q3131 and Winchester Q3131A are considered close seconds, perhaps indistinguishable seconds to Lake City M193. Both are Mil-Spec M193"

comments are not what it used to read...., IIRC it use to say just the Q3131A, as back when I read the oracle there were still defect issues with certain lots of Q3131.

Appears to have been some edits to that paragraph at some point in time, doesn't change the results of my informal testing though way back when though. I will say I haven't shot any Q3131 in the last 5 years or more as the "A" has been my choice for quite some time.




Q3131 was around and in service use before Q3131A was ever made. What you are saying is not at all "obvious". I thought "indistinguishable' meant could not tell the difference between.

So what is "markedly less" and how did you determine it? All three are Mil-Spec. If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum.

Weren't the QC issues in certain lots of Q3131 made in 1999?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:42:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Submariner:
So what is "markedly less" and how did you determine it?



"What we have here......., is a failure to communicate."


XM193 is the hottest, Q3131A runs a close second, but at that time the difference between it ("A") and the Q3131 was as easily noticable when shooting, as the one between the XM193 and the Q3131A.


I highlited it for ya, how I determined it. By shooting it and noticing the difference in the "felt" recoil of each version of the M193 rounds. The XM193 kicked the most, Q3131A came in second and the Q3131 was even lighter.

Most folks who have shot both the XM193 and the Q3131A will tell ya they can tell the difference between these two versions of the M193, try it for yourself if ya don't believe me. Same method was employed between the Israeli and American versions of the M193.

Hope that explains in detail enough for ya.
Mike
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 10:50:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 10:50:53 AM EDT by HardShell]
No disrespect (and I can't believe I am the first to say it here), but your screen name is Gun_Addict and you only have 14 magazines?...




As to the original question, XM193.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 11:44:27 AM EDT
Hey MR_Wilson....................................You're welcome...

Signed: Jicky the menace....
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 4:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 5:00:04 PM EDT by blackeye]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By blackeye:
Like I asked you before and you still haven't answered yet, "What happens to your POI after a hundred yards with these heavy grain bullets?"

All you did was state what Q3131A does with the zero on your rifle at 200 and 300yds?

How bad does it drop after a 100yds? You do know don't you?

After all it ain't rocket science, just simple common sense.







As to my Aimpoint equipped M4s shooting the Black Hills blue-box 77grn. smks
zero = 50 yards
@ 100 yards = 1.25" high
200 yards = dead on target
300 yards = 3" low for the 16", 4-5" for the 14.5"
400 yards = 6-7" low for the 16", 9-11" low for 14.5"


Your correct I don't have a clue.

Mike



Its about time you finally answered my question....

That matchs my zero and yardages for my 55gr ammo? Interesting. I may try BH Blue 77grn again to see if I can get the same results as you seem to be getting.



Link Posted: 9/29/2005 5:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Most folks who have shot both the XM193 and the Q3131A will tell ya they can tell the difference between these two versions of the M193, try it for yourself if ya don't believe me.

Mike



I haven't shot much Q3131 but the above statement is correct. You can feel the difference (recoil wise) between XM193 and Q3131A.

Thats why I feel more comfortable with XM193 in my mags rather than the Q. It is also more accurate in my weapon than the Q. However, I do stash the Q for rainy days.



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