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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/12/2005 3:56:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 12:32:29 PM EDT by tippman]
I was wondering how good of groups I can expect out of my AR. Right now I am under .50" at 100yrds. I know the gun is more accurate than I am and am wondering on how good the groups can get if I do my part. I will post pics later today.

Equip:
RRA lower with two stage trigger
Model 1 sales upper with 24" Stainless bull barrel and 1-9 twist (I am going to get heckled for this)
BSA Platinum Target scope 8-32AO (I am going to get heckled for this too)
Black Hills blue box 75Grain

I am upgrading parts as I come across the spare cash but this is what I have for now.


Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:38:03 AM EDT
If you are consistently shooting 0.5" groups at 100 yds and it is not a fluke, I think any "upgrade" is silly and a total waste of money. Spend it on ammo.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:40:45 AM EDT
I bet you would see tighter groups using a good light varmint load.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:44:21 AM EDT
Best group I can brag about is .75" at 50yds while I was sighting in my EOTech.

That was 5 shots with Wolf 62gr.

Sabre Defense 1/7 mid-length barrel.
RRA lower, std. LPK, 6 pos. stock.
CMT upper with EOTech 512 and ARMS 40

WIZZO
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:09:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 7:10:04 AM EDT by X_Ring]
Bushie DCM with Nikon scope got me a .240" five shot group at 100yds. I attribute that to a great handload with Sierra 52gr match HP bullets, a Jewell 2 stage trigger, a solid rest and perfect weather.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:10:55 AM EDT
0.45" @ 100yds Mk12 Mod1 SPR clone with an 18" 1/7 WOA SPR barrel and 69gr SMK handloads.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:39:58 AM EDT
Are these center to center benchrest sized groups, or outer edge to outer edge?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:43:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UVvis:
Are these center to center benchrest sized groups, or outer edge to outer edge?



Mine is center to center.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:46:10 AM EDT
Mine are from the furthest center to center mark.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:04:03 AM EDT

100 Yards no sandbags no support from bench:

Black Hills blue box 68gr Match .50-.75"
Q3131 (no a) '94 55gr 1-1.5"
WWB Varmint 45gr 1"

Not broken in yet and the trigger pull feels like 8 lbs.
Colt upper A1
20" barrel 1/7 twist A2 flash hider
Stag lower
Bushmaster stock
Xtra power action spring (buffer spring)

Shok
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:05:48 AM EDT
toxic's 10 round group shown here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=249166 are fairly indicative of those I and others get using 24" barreled AR15s, w/ custom loaded 77grn. SMKs.

Don't get much better than this for 10 round groups @ 100 yards......, fwiw my rifle is a CR6724 and I'm running 24.0 grains of AA2460, in Remington brass w/ Rem 7.5 BR primer, loaded mag length for my 77grn. SMKs (note: hot-load, DO NOT PUSH)

BTW anyone can claim their getting 1/2 MOA, but without listing the number of rounds fired in that group, it ain't worth much to ya, info wise.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:09:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
toxic's 10 round group shown here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=249166 are fairly indicative of those I and others get using 24" barreled AR15s, w/ custom loaded 77grn. SMKs.

Don't get much better than this for 10 round groups @ 100 yards......, fwiw my rifle is a CR6724 and I'm running 24.0 grains of AA2460, in Remington brass w/ Rem 7.5 BR primer, loaded mag length for my 77grn. SMKs (note: hot-load, DO NOT PUSH)

BTW anyone can claim their getting 1/2 MOA, but without listing the number of rounds fired in that group, it ain't worth much to ya, info wise.

Mike



That is where I would like to be some day!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:11:56 AM EDT
Most quality ARs should be able to shoot under 1MOA. On your setup, your optics suck (for the most part) try a lighter bullet, my varminter shoots Winchester 45g varmints the best.

Also one area overlooked for accuracy is proper scope setup. I would suggest good rings, leave your scope power @ 10x, and test ammo. Have fun with your new weapon.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:25:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By V-Rod:
Most quality ARs should be able to shoot under 1MOA. On your setup, your optics suck (for the most part) try a lighter bullet, my varminter shoots Winchester 45g varmints the best.

Also one area overlooked for accuracy is proper scope setup. I would suggest good rings, leave your scope power @ 10x, and test ammo. Have fun with your new weapon.



I will be the first to admit my optics suck and so does my upper. Although with the price and quality of the parts I do have I will say that it dosent do to bad. I will upgrade some day though.

Why leave the power at 10X whats the advantage?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:26:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tippman:
I will be the first to admit my optics suck and so does my upper. Although with the price and quality of the parts I do have I will say that it dosent do to bad. I will upgrade some day though.

Why leave the power at 10X whats the advantage?



Nothing wrong with your upper.

leaving @ 10x is more than you need, and budget scopes really don't work well (from my experience)
on using power higher than 10x.

Steps to Installing a Scope:

Center the Windage Adjustable Ring Mounting Screws to mount parallel to bore.
Use Scope Alignment Tool to be sure the rings are aligned. CLICK HERE
Lap the inside of the rings using compound and the Alignment Tool.
Install Scope loosely in the rings.
Set eye relief (distance from strong eye to rear of Scope) and square reticule.
Tighten Rings evenly.
Sight in at the range.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:31:48 AM EDT
Armalite DCM and Black Hills match= .200 all day long.

.280 from a prone tight sling with Iron sights. My eyes are getting weaker. Old age sucks
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 10:57:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 10:59:40 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By bubba99:
Armalite DCM and Black Hills match= .200 all day long.

.280 from a prone tight sling with Iron sights. My eyes are getting weaker. Old age sucks




As a 5.56/223 round is .224 in diameter, perhaps you could explain how your rounds shrunk before getting to the 100 yard mark????????


Mike


ps - take it these are one-shot groups too, which ain't what he's asking about......
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:11:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 11:18:55 AM EDT by bubba99]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By bubba99:
Armalite DCM and Black Hills match= .200 all day long.

.280 from a prone tight sling with Iron sights. My eyes are getting weaker. Old age sucks




As a 5.56/223 round is .224 in diameter, perhaps you could explain how your rounds shrunk before getting to the 100 yard mark????????


Mike


ps - take it these are one-shot groups too, which ain't what he's asking about......




Measured center to center, chief. A .0001 group would be posssible, but not probable.

The hole is usually around .400. subract one bullet width (.224) and you get a Center to Center measurement.

I am sure some people measure the whole damn group bur center to center is the prefered method. Other wise a .224 bullet would automatically have more potential to be accurate than a .308 or whatever. The practice originated to equalize BR competition.

Please dont speak to me in a condescending manner when you are ignorant of the subject matter.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:18:20 AM EDT
center to center would mean the shots overlap, so it could be less than the diameter of the round.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:19:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dsg2003gt:
center to center would mean the shots overlap, so it could be less than the diameter of the round.




+1, Thanks
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:00:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By bubba99:
Armalite DCM and Black Hills match= .200 all day long.

.280 from a prone tight sling with Iron sights. My eyes are getting weaker. Old age sucks




As a 5.56/223 round is .224 in diameter, perhaps you could explain how your rounds shrunk before getting to the 100 yard mark????????


Mike


ps - take it these are one-shot groups too, which ain't what he's asking about......




Read the latest Guns and Ammo. Boddington has a .300 H&H that shoots .050 groups. How do ya think he did that?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:07:01 PM EDT
1.25", 10 shot group (one flyer) with standard Bushmaster 20" and TA31 ACOG (DoD) using Q3131A, in prone, bottom of magazine as support.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:20:53 PM EDT
So all in all I am about where I should be on average? I know I could get better if I were to practice more.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:22:59 PM EDT
.6" 5 shot 100 yard group, second group was .8"
77 grain moly Black Hills bluebox
20" Bushy/chrome lined with 1/9 twist
Bushell 3-9X40 scope

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:23:48 PM EDT


Originally Posted By tippman:
So all in all I am about where I should be on average? I know I could get better if I were to practice more.



Yes, your groups are very respectable. Practice will make a difference, but sounds like you have laid a solid foundation.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:48:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 12:54:57 PM EDT by X_Ring]

Originally Posted By UVvis:
Are these center to center benchrest sized groups, or outer edge to outer edge?



I measure outside to outside, then subtract .220. That gives you the correct center to center measurement.
That being said, if you shoot 5 shots touching each other is a nice tight group, measure outside to outside (as I was taught) and subtract .220", you CAN get a group smaller than .220". For example: If you shoot 5 rounds into one hole = .220". Then subtract the .220", you get 0.00". At least that's the way the super long range guys do it. Not for score, but for group. Smallest group wins.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:51:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By UVvis:
Are these center to center benchrest sized groups, or outer edge to outer edge?



Mine is center to center.



For those that care:

Proper way to measure group size - outside to outside then subtract bullet size

Good luck
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:05:06 PM EDT

Since I shoot almost exclusively XM193, my ammo is undoubtedly the limiting factor - and I am VERY happy if I get 1.5" - 2" groups at 100 yards.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:21:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Since I shoot almost exclusively XM193, my ammo is undoubtedly the limiting factor - and I am VERY happy if I get 1.5" - 2" groups at 100 yards.




You have probably been drinking Port again...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:41:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Since I shoot almost exclusively XM193, my ammo is undoubtedly the limiting factor - and I am VERY happy if I get 1.5" - 2" groups at 100 yards.





I'm with you. I guess those handloads are much more accurate. I mainly shoot Q3131 as it is veeery cheap for me (read free from agency). At 100 with EoTech I'm pleased with 2" groups.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:48:36 PM EDT
One day I shot 4 of these back to back at the local range.

40grn Vmax with H322 or AA2015BR, both powders shot equally well for me.
Brass was mixed, they were simply slapped together handloads for going out busting squirrels.

10 shot groups at 100 yards out of an JP Enterprises Grade 1 24inch upper assembly.


4 10 shot groups, average taken among the 4 10 shot groups was roughly 3/4 MOA.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:33:42 PM EDT
My best groupings are with my 6mm PPC: Olympic SUM 24" bull barrel, Bushnell Banner 6-18x scope... el cheapo $35 free float tube... lots of other no-name parts. I use a "well broken in" hammer & trigger with lighter springs (ala 15 min. trigger job). With careful handloads (70 gr Nosler ballistic tips), it shoots sub-1/2 MOA 5 shot groups (from sandbags) pretty easily. Once in a while I get a freaky super small group but those are LUCK. You shoot enough you're bound to get lucky once in awhile!

Shal1
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:09:58 PM EDT
Can I say that this thread sucks without pics?(uglygun excepted)

With good ammo if I shoot .5" groups at 100yds with optics, then I feel pretty damn good.

Seydou
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:51:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Seydou:
Can I say that this thread sucks without pics?(uglygun excepted)

With good ammo if I shoot .5" groups at 100yds with optics, then I feel pretty damn good.

Seydou



I'd be pleased with sub-MOA groups as well...
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:00:11 PM EDT
This is a typical group I was getting with my ADCO SPR.



Bomber
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:32:56 PM EDT
From another thread in the PR section:

Originally Posted By Cixelsyd:
Here are a couple that I shot last week.


Both are 3 shots at 100 yards. The one on the left measures .335" outside-to-outside and the one on the right is .413" o-to-o. I'm not good enough for 5 shot groups yet.

Here's the rifle.

RRA Lower with Jewell trigger
7.5" twist, 20" Noveske/Pacnor barrel
Armalite FF tube
Leupold 16X MK4 with Gen2 Mildot
Badger rings and ARMS rail

Ammo was "The Major's" 75gr Hornady load.

CHRIS



Shot from a bench with a rest.
CHRIS
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:29:44 AM EDT
Sorry I got busy with replacing my mail box post last night. I will try top post pictured tonight.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:13:45 AM EDT
Hey Cixel, is that a polygonal Noveske PacNor??
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:21:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Geohans:
Hey Cixel, is that a polygonal Noveske PacNor??



Nah. Nothing special like that. Just a plain ole 4 groove. I think that anything that JN or Pacnor puts out will be a shooter.

CHRIS
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:31:59 PM EDT
Here are the pics:

This is pretty good:


Getting better:


The best of the day and my last two rounds:


The AR:


Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:32:07 PM EDT
How 'bout with a carbine? What's the best you've shot with a 16" or 14.5" AR? What kind of groupings should I be getting with a standard 14.5" Bushy carbine, non free float, wwb ammo, phantom fh?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:13:13 PM EDT
I've got to add:

Three shot groups are for girls.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:50:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I've got to add:

Three shot groups are for girls.




Not if you are the bad guy on the receiving end of that "three shot group".
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:16:06 PM EDT
With worn-out military M4 barrels, I'm generally happy to keep all three under a dime on the 25 meter zero range. We never shoot for group further out than that. Was easier with an A2.

I shot a ragged one-holer at 25 with a M261 .22LR sub-caliber adapter through a M16A1 once, that particular combination was just great. I was almost up to what my Winchester 52C would do.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:19:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 2:24:52 PM EDT by tippman]

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I've got to add:

Three shot groups are for girls.



Ya so my dad can beat up your dad! Ya I know! but I will get better in time.

ETA: How heavy are your target AR's? Mine is weighing in at around 17lbs. I sure as hell wouldnt want to carry it very far!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:18:31 PM EDT
When I put together my AR I was on a quest to see just how accurate I could get with this gun. I talked to a lot of people and looked at the recordbooks for BR etc and read everything I could get my hands on as far as barrel makers. I settled on Krieger. I spent a lot of time on the phone with them discussing what I wanted, then I sent them my upper and let them do all the fitting. I broke it in exactly like they advised. Then came triggers,. I settled on a JP single stage that breaks like glass. I then got into reloading full scale, built a bench for target practice, learned about good bench techniques, went to benchrest matches and watched. A lot of trial and error. I started load devolpment and kept a 3 ring binder with every target, load, condition etc. Tried probably a dozen bullets and several primer combos, several powders. Heck you can burn a barrel out just doing that!!! I spent a bunch of money for some good self learned experience. .5 MOA is fairly easy to accomplish, after that , it gets fun and TIME consuming. I learned a heck of a lot about my abilities and my equipment. Now I have 3 basic loads that I can load up and now go have fun. I shoot from bags only. I could never get used to a bipod. I carry several bags and have grown accustomed to them. I even started cataloging cold bore shots versus second shot and the infamous first fouling shot.

Here is what I ended up with.
24"Krieger 1in 9
Megga upper and Lower, JP split pins, polished bolt and face, JP trigger, 3 inch wide "Accuracy rest" on the front, Lead filled A2 stock, teflon anti friction tape on forend and stock to aid in free recoil in the bags, a carrier weight system and a Sightron 24 power scope as well as a tasco 10-40 power for backup.

Winchester brass, deburred, chamfered case mouths, Federal Gold medal primer, Varget powder, 50 grain VMAX, 69, and 77 grain Sierra SMK's . A good Micrometer bullet seater and each round checked for concentricity, runout and overal length.

I average in the .4moa with a few in the .3 with all 5 shot groups. If groups go into the .6 or .7's I start checking things.

I am starting my next build as a M4gery!! I got to admit, grab some regular ammo and have a ball! I love AR's because they are so damn versatile!

If you can consistently stay in the .5moa, don't waste a wad of cash like I did. Just enjoy it and use the money for another AR. Unless you just want to enjoy the chase

100 yards

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 8:16:11 PM EDT
Comes and goes. A fucking potato gun would have been more accurate than me today- but this is a cut-n-paste from a thread to which I got zero replies....antisocial bastards

Took the new ACOG out to do some sighting in. Shot several 3 round "groups" with some M193. Butt on the ground, mag on a upside-down bucket, seemed to be slightly high and pulling to the right (I shoot lefty) Didn't want to do much adjusting untill I shoot with a proper rest at longer ranges, and maybe a JP trigger.





This is good for me at 100yds. Got a bipod now, working on a trigger.

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 8:17:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 9:04:16 PM EDT
Here's my best....




and another.....damn those flyers. This one could have been 5 rounds into about .312".

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:45:04 PM EDT
JP 15 with the 18" ultra lite barrel, 55gr Nosler BT., Leupold Mark IV LRT, Windless day.
This rifle without optics weighs only 6.5 lbs. One group on its own doesn't mean much, so I like to average my entire target. You will notice the last group is only 4 rds because I ran out of ammo at that point. I am a self taught shooter so, I am sure the rifle, in competent hands, would be even more acurate.



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