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Posted: 8/19/2017 10:44:55 PM EST
Block II has been out for quite some time and there has already been news of a shift toward M-Lok happening within Crane for future rifles, but has there been any news regarding what equipment is coming next and who it's made by? There have already been some pics on the Block II thread showing Geissele M-Lok rails in FDE, but there doesn't seem to be word of it being standard equipment and what other accessories/modifications they might be adopting alongside it. Anyone know anything about what the future of the M4 holds?
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 11:09:34 PM EST
It will be called the M27A2
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:19:42 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By assaultdog0351:
It will be called the M27A2
View Quote


No it won't.

Also we don't know, Cranes testing of the Mid length gas system compared to the carbine system is the thing everyone is waiting on.

However we can easily say it will either be a 14.5" middy, or a 14.5" carbine with a M-lok FF rail system.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:15:52 AM EST
What of the pictures of the M-Lok rails that have already surfaced? Are those being procured by individuals, or is there already testing being done on rails they plan to standardize later?

The gas system would be an interesting change. Does anyone happen to know why they decided on carbine length for 14.5" in the first place? Seems like a strange decision to go back on given that the original choice was based off of their testing a while back.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:29:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By henryfrank:
What of the pictures of the M-Lok rails that have already surfaced? Are those being procured by individuals, or is there already testing being done on rails they plan to standardize later?

The gas system would be an interesting change. Does anyone happen to know why they decided on carbine length for 14.5" in the first place? Seems like a strange decision to go back on given that the original choice was based off of their testing a while back.
View Quote
I believe the M-Lok rails that have popped up in pictures were Hodge defense guns procured for testing. Then they wanted more in depth testing which is going on now.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:33:47 AM EST
Interesting indeed. Are there any posts up about said testing? Sounds like a really cool read. :)
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:25:54 AM EST
They tested M-lok and Keymod, but no word whether they will actually adopt M-lok.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:29:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By assaultdog0351:
It will be called the M27A2
View Quote
or will it be called CQB16/MARS-L ?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:55:34 AM EST
Folks are putting Geissele and ALG 13" rails on uppers, and more of the 1-6 Razor Gen 2s are being seen. That's the general flavor on the "unofficial" side, so I wouldn't be surprised if those types of things are directly requested in whatever Block III would be.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:11:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 3:20:37 AM EST by Click2Boom]
Basically a C-War in 14.5"

Tidbits:
Weren't they looking at the SF warcomp? I'm guessing staying with SF FH or warcomp for use with SF cans
Geissele 13" mk4/mk8 m-lok
14.5 bbl
KAC buis
SOPMOD stock? K2 grip? Probably a phased upgrade to furniture, if at all.
Maybe trigger upgrade like SSF?
Gen3 pmags
Typical lights/laze/optics... Geissele mounts?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:50:52 AM EST
Warcomp + Geiselle High Speed Selector would make a ton of sense.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:54:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 9:56:07 AM EST by Stukas87]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Warcomp + Geiselle High Speed Selector would make a ton of sense.
View Quote
SOCOM already chose Geiselle SSF trigger back in 2015 as standard trigger
just matter of time before all units get them. I got one for my rifle early 2015.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:01:25 AM EST
Hoping 14.5" mid-length, but we'll have to see about that.

And interesting read about the Geissele selector. So, if I'm reading correctly, you have to manually hold the selector in the "Auto" position while firing and then upon releasing the selector it automatically retracts back into the "Semi" mode? Seems kinda goofy if you ask me.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:02:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stukas87:
SOCOM already chose Geiselle SSF trigger back in 2015 as standard trigger
just matter of time before all units get them. I got one for my rifle early 2015.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stukas87:
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Warcomp + Geiselle High Speed Selector would make a ton of sense.
SOCOM already chose Geiselle SSF trigger back in 2015 as standard trigger
just matter of time before all units get them. I got one for my rifle early 2015.
He's not talking about the trigger. He's talking about Geissele's new prototype selector.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:14:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 871JZ:


He's not talking about the trigger. He's talking about Geissele's new prototype selector.
View Quote
It's an interesting concept for sure.

I question how reliably one can employ it during stress, and how it handles long term use in harsh environments.

What happens when the springs get worn, etc.

Lots of unknowns with that type of selector.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:19:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:
It's an interesting concept for sure.

I question how reliably one can employ it during stress, and how it handles long term use in harsh environments.

What happens when the springs get worn, etc.

Lots of unknowns with that type of selector.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:
Originally Posted By 871JZ:


He's not talking about the trigger. He's talking about Geissele's new prototype selector.
It's an interesting concept for sure.

I question how reliably one can employ it during stress, and how it handles long term use in harsh environments.

What happens when the springs get worn, etc.

Lots of unknowns with that type of selector.
You're right. This is why I mentioned it being an odd design.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:31:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 11:01:10 AM EST by Stukas87]
Ive always thought 1st setting on a M4 should be two round burst then second setting semi

Reason , we multi-shoot everything up close for CQB anyways why train to double tap fast
if your gun is already set up that way.
3 round burst.... already shown, 3rd round usually off target anything past 50 yards.

With second setting being semi-... usually you have some time when
getting shot at from a distance
so you have time to cycle safety to semi if it was the second setting.
For those slow aim shots at distance.

Also cut the full auto rate by a third. If the M4A1 stays with a full auto setting.
Makes controlling full auto so easy you can really control the rate.
Heres video I did back in 2014 using FERFRANS rate reducing system
VTAC 2x2x2 drill, look at my trigger finger notice only 3 trigger pulls 1 per target
I was able to control 2 round per target easily with rate slowed down
FERFRANS 2x2x2 drill

I think writing on the walls... Block III
Geissele with M-LOK rails
Vortex 1-6 Razors will be SOCOM wide
And the SF War Comp.......I saw a few is use in 2015 down range personally purchased by guys when it 1st came out.

All this stuff already in use with select units (as per pics for Syria have already shown)
Just a matter of time before becomes SOCOM standard issue.

Hell it took the RIS II FSP from its selection by SOCOM circa 2007/2008
to make it into wide spread use 2014! with all SOF. Yes by then RIS II without FSP was already chosen to replace it by 2013/2014ish.
I finally got a RIS II FSP issued to me in 2014, then early 2015 got the Non FSP rail.
SOCOM painfully slow issuing Crane selected items

Just my thoughts after 6 tours anyways
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:08:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stukas87:
Ive always thought 1st setting on a M4 should be two round burst then second setting semi

Reason , we multi-shoot everything up close for CQB anyways why train to double tap fast
if your gun is already set up that way.
3 round burst.... already shown, 3rd round usually off target anything past 50 yards.

With second setting being semi-... usually you have some time when
getting shot at from a distance
so you have time to cycle safety to semi if it was the second setting.
For those slow aim shots at distance.

Also cut the full auto rate by a third. If the M4A1 stays with a full auto setting.
Makes controlling full auto so easy you can really control the rate.
Heres video I did back in 2014 using FERFRANS rate reducing system
VTAC 2x2x2 drill, look at my trigger finger notice only 3 trigger pulls 1 per target
I was able to control 2 round per target easily with rate slowed down
FERFRANS 2x2x2 drill

I think writing on the walls... Block III
Geissele with M-LOK rails
Vortex 1-6 Razors will be SOCOM wide
And the SF War Comp.......I saw a few is use in 2015 down range personally purchased by guys when it 1st came out.

All this stuff already in use with select units (as per pics for Syria have already shown)
Just a matter of time before becomes SOCOM standard issue.

Hell it took the RIS II FSP from its selection by SOCOM circa 2007/2008
to make it into wide spread use 2014! with all SOF. Yes by then RIS II without FSP was already chosen to replace it by 2013/2014ish.
I finally got a RIS II FSP issued to me in 2014, then early 2015 got the Non FSP rail.
SOCOM painfully slow issuing Crane selected items

Just my thoughts after 6 tours anyways
View Quote
I think the main issue isn't that Crane is slow, just that DD can't produce them fast enough.

The main reason for the full auto trigger is it's simplicity.

A 2 round burst trigger would be back to having to use a cog that makes us have 4 different trigger pulls.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:12:27 AM EST
Years back a 2 round burst mode was built for Navy with the MP5 for just the same reason
Too bad it came out same time M4 finally taking over as primary CQB weapon.
Circa 1997 MP5 was still seen as primary CQB gun same year SOPMOD I started mass issue and squashed MP5 use.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:12:49 PM EST
You guys are probably right with why the standardization is taking so long. The fact that it takes so long to seem to standardize long after the writing has already been on the wall for years is the main reason I asked about this. Thank you for posting the good info!


Stukas87,

Since you seem to have first-hand experience/have at least seen this gear first hand, do you know any specifics regarding the models of each they are trying?

Is the SF War Comp the 3 prong version readily available, or did the Mil once again go with a 4 prong?

What about the Geissele rail? Which models are being employed? Can these also take the M203, or is that something they will have to adapt on going forward?

Keep the awesome info coming!
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:25:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 12:47:49 PM EST by Stukas87]
Being retired since Oct 2016 I'm getting out of the loop now.

Last Force Mod meeting I went to, was I think early 2016
At the time Vortex Razor 1-6 was suggested as next optic over Elcan or supplement it for carbine.
Seeing how it is in use with Tier 1 units
its got a good chance making SOPMOD III I bet.

My Son in SOCOM now last combat trip he did few months ago he went with SOPMOD II and a RIS II non FSP
so he had same stuff I did 2015 combat tour.
At least the G19 with MOS cut has been fully adopted pistol wise at least for SF
so no Sig worries there!
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:42:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:


I believe the M-Lok rails that have popped up in pictures were Hodge defense guns procured for testing. Then they wanted more in depth testing which is going on now.
View Quote
There's a few onesy-twosey pics of a few different rails. 13" Mk8, 13" Mk14, as well as 13" EMR V3.

No way to really know for sure if they're personally owned purchases or official test units.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 4:43:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Folks are putting Geissele and ALG 13" rails on uppers, and more of the 1-6 Razor Gen 2s are being seen. That's the general flavor on the "unofficial" side, so I wouldn't be surprised if those types of things are directly requested in whatever Block III would be.
View Quote
Don't forget the K16i.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:03:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 871JZ:
Hoping 14.5" mid-length, but we'll have to see about that.

And interesting read about the Geissele selector. So, if I'm reading correctly, you have to manually hold the selector in the "Auto" position while firing and then upon releasing the selector it automatically retracts back into the "Semi" mode? Seems kinda goofy if you ask me.
View Quote
Makes a lot more sense when you watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LblmJU8l6DM

Basically it makes semi auto a 45 degree throw, FA 90. The idea is you can quickly go to full auto, and then as soon as you release, it springs back to semi - no dicking around trying to rotate the selector.

Not as optimal as a progressive trigger like the AUG / P90 (where half pull is semi, hard pull is full auto) but it's certainly better then the existing 180 degree rotation to engage FA.

With the new selector, plus the Warcomp to reduce muzzle rise, I think it would greatly enhance the utility of full auto.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 6:28:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 7:19:23 PM EST by Stukas87]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


Makes a lot more sense when you watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LblmJU8l6DM

Basically it makes semi auto a 45 degree throw, FA 90. The idea is you can quickly go to full auto, and then as soon as you release, it springs back to semi - no dicking around trying to rotate the selector.

Not as optimal as a progressive trigger like the AUG / P90 (where half pull is semi, hard pull is full auto) but it's certainly better then the existing 180 degree rotation to engage FA.

With the new selector, plus the Warcomp to reduce muzzle rise, I think it would greatly enhance the utility of full auto.
View Quote
A SOCOM Suppressor enhances full auto control capability
I've used War Comp both 5.56 and 7.62.
I thought no big noticeable difference between that
and a SF 4 prong,...and I'm a SF fan boy
there might be slight difference but not a lot.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:18:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stukas87:


A SOCOM Suppressor enhances full auto control capability
I've used War Comp both 5.56 and 7.62.
I thought no big noticeable difference between that
and a SF 4 prong
View Quote
Interesting. I was going to replace the 4 prong on my main rifle with a Warcomp to try out. Thanks for saving me a $150.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:20:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StealthGuy:


Interesting. I was going to replace the 4 prong on my main rifle with a Warcomp to try out. Thanks for saving me a $150.
View Quote
I would try one if you can before you buy one that's for sure.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 7:36:15 PM EST
We Block III now.

Link Posted: 8/20/2017 8:22:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 8:27:03 PM EST by Roadblock]
YEP! Block III Mod 67 Revision W

Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:47:12 AM EST
Stukas is the expert on this, warcomps are coming in, so are razors 1-6's, geissele triggers, and probably geissele rails. One of my guys came from 2/75 and they started getting some warcomps, some razors have gone to 1/75 and some guys in 5th. The reason why mid length makes more sense is the m855a1 round. It has a higher pressure and I've noticed more gas rings going out since we switched but the mid length can ease some of that pressure with the longer system. I wonder if they do go to the mid length who will make the barrels. But I agree the rate of fire should be slower on an m4. 82nd just now got the a1 conversion, full auto is whatever but I'm just glad we finally got some new barrels.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 7:49:09 AM EST
I like my warcomp, I haven't shot it compared to a 4 prong but shooting mine vs a buddy's mid length with just a birdcage a2 I noticed a big difference
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:00:18 AM EST
Those are some sexy builds! Any pics of issued carbinea in the wild configured like that?

Also, can anyone still confirm that the warcomp they're using is the civi 3 prong, or do they have a super special 4 prong one that oper8s harder instead?
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:23:14 PM EST
I'm kind of partial to the closed tine. Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:41:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 9:51:54 AM EST by Stukas87]
Since we are talking flash hiders for military service.......

Fun Fact

When the Individual Carbine Competition was going on
The goal was make a AR go longer through military dust test and a 20,000 barrel life.
(Got shit canned by the Army circa 2012ish)

I got to shoot all the finalist submissions
I thought Colt and Smith & Wesson had the best AR's

Smith & Wesson's rifle, what they basically did
was redo all the coatings on the gun and in the barrel
I don't remember with what
(And they shelved the entire rifle after the program got canceled) Which is a shame it was pretty bad ass

One item did survive from the improved carbine, that is the flash hider

It was designed to improve the M4 recoil and flash and is now being offered on Smith & Wesson's higher end rifles
I got two to try
Top flash hider in the pic is the Smith & Wesson compared to a Surefire Four Prong. Remind you of another current flash hider?
Note holes in top to allow excess gas vent out

Same flash hider Jerry Miculek used to set his 10 shot record.

Here is a 4yr old video me testing it full auto when I got two to test:
AA with Smith Wesson Flash Hider

Too bad S&W does not sell it separately if they did I would buy a few more.

Is it better than a War Comp? In terms of recoil and flash..I would say the same.
But a little lighter less material. Closed prongs a lot thinner than SF War Comp or a four prong.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:00:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TBone556:
Stukas is the expert on this, warcomps are coming in, so are razors 1-6's, geissele triggers, and probably geissele rails. One of my guys came from 2/75 and they started getting some warcomps, some razors have gone to 1/75 and some guys in 5th. The reason why mid length makes more sense is the m855a1 round. It has a higher pressure and I've noticed more gas rings going out since we switched but the mid length can ease some of that pressure with the longer system. I wonder if they do go to the mid length who will make the barrels. But I agree the rate of fire should be slower on an m4. 82nd just now got the a1 conversion, full auto is whatever but I'm just glad we finally got some new barrels.
View Quote
Current lots of M855A1 have around 54,200PSI chamber pressure.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:37:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StealthGuy:
Interesting. I was going to replace the 4 prong on my main rifle with a Warcomp to try out. Thanks for saving me a $150.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StealthGuy:
Originally Posted By Stukas87:


A SOCOM Suppressor enhances full auto control capability
I've used War Comp both 5.56 and 7.62.
I thought no big noticeable difference between that
and a SF 4 prong
Interesting. I was going to replace the 4 prong on my main rifle with a Warcomp to try out. Thanks for saving me a $150.
I like my Warcomp. I only have an AAC 51T Blackout to compare to for a three pronged hider, and I think the Warcomp is quite a bit better.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:44:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 11:44:59 AM EST by 871JZ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Timbo:
I'm kind of partial to the closed tine. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/123815/IMG_8689-287006.JPG
View Quote
I like the closed tine, but prefer the pronged version. I waited forever for a closed tine and then tried it and liked my standard Warcomp better.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:56:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:


Current lots of M855A1 have around 54,200PSI chamber pressure.
View Quote
Not anymore.

S/F
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 5:06:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 5:07:41 PM EST by 871JZ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Makes a lot more sense when you watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LblmJU8l6DM

Basically it makes semi auto a 45 degree throw, FA 90. The idea is you can quickly go to full auto, and then as soon as you release, it springs back to semi - no dicking around trying to rotate the selector.

Not as optimal as a progressive trigger like the AUG / P90 (where half pull is semi, hard pull is full auto) but it's certainly better then the existing 180 degree rotation to engage FA.

With the new selector, plus the Warcomp to reduce muzzle rise, I think it would greatly enhance the utility of full auto.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Originally Posted By 871JZ:
Hoping 14.5" mid-length, but we'll have to see about that.

And interesting read about the Geissele selector. So, if I'm reading correctly, you have to manually hold the selector in the "Auto" position while firing and then upon releasing the selector it automatically retracts back into the "Semi" mode? Seems kinda goofy if you ask me.
Makes a lot more sense when you watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LblmJU8l6DM

Basically it makes semi auto a 45 degree throw, FA 90. The idea is you can quickly go to full auto, and then as soon as you release, it springs back to semi - no dicking around trying to rotate the selector.

Not as optimal as a progressive trigger like the AUG / P90 (where half pull is semi, hard pull is full auto) but it's certainly better then the existing 180 degree rotation to engage FA.

With the new selector, plus the Warcomp to reduce muzzle rise, I think it would greatly enhance the utility of full auto.
Thanks for the video.

After watching it, it seems the selector does exactly as I described. It STILL seems goofy to me.

It's obviously much faster than a traditional selector when transitioning from safe to auto, or from semi to auto, but I still don't understand why Bill designed it the way he did.

What's the benefit of having to manually hold the selector in the auto position while firing? I understand why it automatically retracts to semi after firing in auto, but I just don't understand why it's ideal to have to hold the selector in the auto position AND operate the trigger at the same time.

I wish the G man himself would come by and comment on this. Can anyone else explain the thought process behind the design?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:23:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By henryfrank:
Those are some sexy builds! Any pics of issued carbinea in the wild configured like that?
View Quote


Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:44:30 PM EST




I can't remember where these pictures originally surfaced but I've heard these are test uppers for block III.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 7:45:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Callahan:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/104386/IMG_3688_JPG-287941.jpg

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/104386/IMG_3687_JPG-287945.jpg

I can't remember where these pictures originally surfaced but I've heard these are test uppers for block III.
View Quote
Mid- length or carbine gas system, I wonder.....
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:32:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 871JZ:


Thanks for the video.

After watching it, it seems the selector does exactly as I described. It STILL seems goofy to me.

It's obviously much faster than a traditional selector when transitioning from safe to auto, or from semi to auto, but I still don't understand why Bill designed it the way he did.

What's the benefit of having to manually hold the selector in the auto position while firing? I understand why it automatically retracts to semi after firing in auto, but I just don't understand why it's ideal to have to hold the selector in the auto position AND operate the trigger at the same time.

I wish the G man himself would come by and comment on this. Can anyone else explain the thought process behind the design?
View Quote
I think it does the design a disservice by calling it goofy. It was their solution to a USMC study, concluding that the time it took to actually throw the selector into auto meant missing crucial moments when auto fire was needed or optimal at moving targets. Semi auto is military default, but when auto fire is needed, it just takes pressure to move the selector into the auto position. When that short engagement window passes, release pressure to go back to semi auto. In a stressful situation when going from safe to engage a target into semi, I'd think the nature of the short throw would cause soldiers to skip right past semi and into full auto, which also isn't optimal. Probably the reason the auto position wasn't detented.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 3:38:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sdrake100:

I think it does the design a disservice by calling it goofy. It was their solution to a USMC study, concluding that the time it took to actually throw the selector into auto meant missing crucial moments when auto fire was needed or optimal at moving targets. Semi auto is military default, but when auto fire is needed, it just takes pressure to move the selector into the auto position. When that short engagement window passes, release pressure to go back to semi auto. In a stressful situation when going from safe to engage a target into semi, I'd think the nature of the short throw would cause soldiers to skip right past semi and into full auto, which also isn't optimal. Probably the reason the auto position wasn't detented.
View Quote
Agree not goofy I wish I had it my last tour.

Going over to full auto takes way too much. You don't know you need it until you really need it. trust me its too far of a manipulation to be fast.
Yes 99% of training even in SF is based off semi-auto. I think its in part to the difficulty with the safety design and training scars.
Circa 1997 we trained full auto a lot for CQB, (at least the SF unit I was in.) Now almost non-existent in formal training.

I bet it was not dreamed up on the fly ...I bet created from direct feedback form assaulters down range.

And one comment on here of what if springs wear out? Already plenty of springs in the M4 and they do just fine.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 5:06:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2017 5:08:13 PM EST by 871JZ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sdrake100:
I think it does the design a disservice by calling it goofy. It was their solution to a USMC study, concluding that the time it took to actually throw the selector into auto meant missing crucial moments when auto fire was needed or optimal at moving targets. Semi auto is military default, but when auto fire is needed, it just takes pressure to move the selector into the auto position. When that short engagement window passes, release pressure to go back to semi auto. In a stressful situation when going from safe to engage a target into semi, I'd think the nature of the short throw would cause soldiers to skip right past semi and into full auto, which also isn't optimal. Probably the reason the auto position wasn't detented.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By sdrake100:
Originally Posted By 871JZ:


Thanks for the video.

After watching it, it seems the selector does exactly as I described. It STILL seems goofy to me.

It's obviously much faster than a traditional selector when transitioning from safe to auto, or from semi to auto, but I still don't understand why Bill designed it the way he did.

What's the benefit of having to manually hold the selector in the auto position while firing? I understand why it automatically retracts to semi after firing in auto, but I just don't understand why it's ideal to have to hold the selector in the auto position AND operate the trigger at the same time.

I wish the G man himself would come by and comment on this. Can anyone else explain the thought process behind the design?
I think it does the design a disservice by calling it goofy. It was their solution to a USMC study, concluding that the time it took to actually throw the selector into auto meant missing crucial moments when auto fire was needed or optimal at moving targets. Semi auto is military default, but when auto fire is needed, it just takes pressure to move the selector into the auto position. When that short engagement window passes, release pressure to go back to semi auto. In a stressful situation when going from safe to engage a target into semi, I'd think the nature of the short throw would cause soldiers to skip right past semi and into full auto, which also isn't optimal. Probably the reason the auto position wasn't detented.
I disagree. I can appreciate Bill's design and the thought behind it, but I don't have to agree that its ideal for everyone. It's simply my opinion.

I also have some time behind select-fire M4's, and the design, in my opinion, is unusual. Having to manually hold the selector in the auto position while firing doesn't seem very intuitive. I agree the shortened throw allows much quicker engagement, but it seems that's really all that was needed. A faster way to engage the auto position using the selector.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 8:44:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 871JZ:


I disagree. I can appreciate Bill's design and the thought behind it, but I don't have to agree that its ideal for everyone. It's simply my opinion.

I also have some time behind select-fire M4's, and the design, in my opinion, is unusual. Having to manually hold the selector in the auto position while firing doesn't seem very intuitive. I agree the shortened throw allows much quicker engagement, but it seems that's really all that was needed. A faster way to engage the auto position using the selector.
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So how would you suggest getting past the issue of skipping past semi into a dedicated auto position on a short throw selector, under stress? Make the throws really heavy? If the engagement window is really short and needed only in crucial moments, I don't see the need for a dedicated auto position. Geissele was responding to a specific need and they came up with a (imo elegant) solution. I don't think anybody is arguing that it's ideal for all situations or for every situation.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 7:08:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By StealthGuy:
We Block III now.

https://i.imgur.com/RrFoN6p.jpg
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Kind of random, but how do you like the Grip Stop? Do you wish it was shorter, or do you like the full size?
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 9:33:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2017 10:02:48 AM EST by Stukas87]
Concerning the trigger,

You have to keep in mind this is about SOPMOD III
And most likely will not see general issue to all.
So while going with a Geissele High Speed selector might seem like it will be hard for the average guy to manipulate
You have to keep in mind SOF guys get about 10 times more training time and ammo per year
compared to the average combat MOS soldier. (Not to bash regular soldiers just a fact.)
That is... in part why SOF got the full auto M4A1 and regular army kept 3 round burst.

My experience with triggers:
The MP5 trigger design is one where you can easily go past semi by accident to auto
Happened to me all the time when we still used MP5s, even though it has a pretty positive clicks
So a selector lever that you must hold down like the Geissele for full auto makes since to me there.
I bet can become pretty intuitive after some training.

45 degree safety throw levers:
The 1st SCAR offered to the military had a 45 degree semi-auto lever,
I was part of final unit to test it ....We tested it. I loved it. All my buddies hated it. So we went back with the 90 degree semi lever.
Why? I think training scars. Guys just were not used to it and we only had a short time to eval the final SCAR offering.

Look at 45dgree semi settings now, they are the go to for 3-gun, Why? Because they are hands down faster.

Now lets go back in time before the M16.... You had the M14 and M1 Garande which had a toggle safety
Old timers on here correct me if I'm wrong. But I bet you did not toggle on and off a whole lot while in the middle of fire fights
I bet safety was off and your primary safety while maneuvering around was .. finger off the trigger.
Going to the first M16 I bet it was thought as a radical trigger safety set-up.

Now....The M4 trigger system / selector set up has served us well but its from 1965ish.
There is demand for a faster set-up.... so I think we are due for another radical change.
I think Geissele is on the right track.
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 12:55:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By StealthGuy:
We Block III now.

https://i.imgur.com/RrFoN6p.jpg
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Good to know, I pretty much have all these parts and will have a Block 3 unintentionally
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 12:58:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


Kind of random, but how do you like the Grip Stop? Do you wish it was shorter, or do you like the full size?
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I like it. They make a short one. I prefer the fullsize one.

Link Posted: 8/24/2017 1:41:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2017 1:43:27 PM EST by joglee]
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Originally Posted By GS5414:


Not anymore.

S/F
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What's it at now? My M855A1 are marked 2013.
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