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Posted: 10/6/2005 4:27:15 PM EDT
I only run LT products on my personal weapons because I like the lever design better. But I am unclear on why ARMs Mounts are crap. While I was in the Army I used a old M68 ARMs mount on my Regular M4 with an aimpoint M2. The mount held zero even after I repeatedly switched it out with a TA01 scope. What is the deal please clue me in to why the ARMs mounts are death traps.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:45:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 4:46:27 PM EDT by The_Accuser]
I like them. I too use one for the Aimpoint on my M4. I also use them for the Leupold on my SPR Mk12 mod 1 clone. I am getting ready to order a third set for the scope for my SAM-R project.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:51:20 PM EDT
I'm not aware of any hatred towards the ARMS throw lever but I'm not up on the latest and greatest happings around here. While I love the throw levers on my LaRue mounts my ARMS levers have done their job and that is what is most important.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:02:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:19:27 PM EDT
Because they aren't the trendy new product of the day.

Most people with such strong opinions are probably fat, middle-aged couch potatoes who have never shot at anything that wasn't at the end of a 100 yard gun range.

Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:29:16 PM EDT
ARMS isnt bad, they just make a product that comes in second place. AKA first loser.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:32:39 PM EDT
No I believe many feel that ARMS is not a Teir 1 product anymore and also some might not like how they conduct business....I just think that ARMS needs to update their Mounts and stop being so complacint. You know " I dont need to change anything, I'm ARMS and I have been selling my shit long before others!"

ANt
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:53:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:41:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:47:42 PM EDT
They hold zero.

They also get loose over time after repeated mount/dismounting.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:52:17 PM EDT
What he said.
It appears it is still good enuf for the .gov.

<­BR>

also: IBTAVLR lock
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:17:46 PM EDT
MIM.
Unadjustable.
No Locking.
Some zero issues.

Simon
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:41:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
MIM.
Unadjustable.
No Locking.
Some zero issues.

Simon



+1

The levers have broken under hard use but you would be hard pressed to find an AR15member who had this issue who was a civilian. Still its inferior to Larue

ARMS mounts rnage from next to impossible to open/close or can be flipped with a single pinky. Its a total crap shoot and has nothing to do with the rail it mounts on. One ARMS lever can be loose on a rail and the other ridiculously tight.

The locking issue has to do with military problems with the loose versions of ARMS mounts coming loose. I never had this problem even with a loose lever.

I have never had a zero issue but have had mounts that shifted fore and aft with finger pressure.

ARMS mounts have that flap which does not hinder removal of the mount but makes attachment a bitch because they have to be held just so to get them to go on. Larue is just a flip of the lever and its attached.

ARMS levers are not hated they are just inferior in nearly every aspect to the Larue mounts.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:12:09 AM EDT
i have never had any problems with any arms products until i tried to mount an aimpoint and buis on my beowulf upper.

for what ever reason the 'wulf upper is thicker and the throwlever would not close more than halfway.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:43:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:40:13 AM EDT
I guess for me it's because ALL my weapons here and 99% of the local LE folk use ARMS from MANY years back. So NOW because of the "new guys on the block", we have to spend thousands of dollars to switch over? If the product works, why spend thousands to switch over?

Vic
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:20:54 AM EDT
The ARMS lever on my Surefire 962 works fine, snug enough. I did have problems with the ARMS Aimpoint M2 mount though maintaining a zero with hard use. I even got to demonstrate the ARMS zero problem during a Pat Rogers Carbine class .

Went with Larue for the Aimpoint and never looked back.

Some things are simply designed and made better.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:42:37 AM EDT
Could someone give a brief description of exactly how an ARMS mount "stretches out" after prolonged use?

I can understand the lever breaking off, but I don't get the stretching out thing.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 10:39:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 10:41:47 AM EDT
All I know is that every Arms mount Ive had it loosened quickly.Acog Mount and Surefire Mount.They both had play in them.

I put a little piece of Foam from a gun case under lever to fix the problem.No big deal,I just buy Larue from now on.

My .2

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 10:54:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Victor:
I guess for me it's because ALL my weapons here and 99% of the local LE folk use ARMS from MANY years back. So NOW because of the "new guys on the block", we have to spend thousands of dollars to switch over? If the product works, why spend thousands to switch over?

Vic

You're talking out your ass. First off, if it would cost you thousands of dollars to switch over then you've got one hell of a collection in your safe. Second, nobody has ever said that you or anybody else must replace any of your gear. If you already have ARMS stuff that is getting it done for you then more power to you, but if you are in the market for a new mount then the new guys like Larue are making a better product and selling it for about the same price.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:24:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
i have never had any problems with any arms products until i tried to mount an aimpoint and buis on my beowulf upper.

for what ever reason the 'wulf upper is thicker and the throwlever would not close more than halfway.



I have come across the Beowulf uppers before and they are NOT in spec.



C4





yeah thats what i assumed.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:38:24 PM EDT
mine didnt return to zero and ate my rail up, no problems with the larue
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:41:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 5:44:14 PM EDT by ChrisGene]
Guys, I cannot get over the way the LaRue throw lever cams dig into the rail everytime you open or close them. The floating shim in the ARMS mount is absolutely necessary. I am just amazed that so many people can look over this. I have one of these mounts, but I would ever dream of putting it on one of my guns with an aluminium rail (or steel).

How can anyone say this is a superior product?
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:46:30 PM EDT
ARMS has always been a good product in my book, Ive never had any major Issues with ARMS. Until tonight, My arms Aimpoint ring wont close on a B&T mount for my HK94. Looks like I will have to do some shopping tomorrow for a new ring.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:19:16 PM EDT
i use both and can say that both are good products. arms has good products that get the job done. any product can fail and with as many items as they have on the market your bound to get a higher failure rate or to appear like products are more prone to breakage. on the other hand larue has come to market with products that no one else makes like the spr ee. picked up 2 from them direct and what great service. i needed it rushed and he got it to me in time for work. as you watch these boards you can see trends in what is the coolest gear at the time is or what is being pushed at the time. wait a week and it will be on the ee for alot cheaper because someone will get the new product to stay up with the jones. if it is not broke dont fix it. people have used arms that do more then punch paper. now they have another option in larue.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:41:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gungho_1989:
ARMS has always been a good product in my book, Ive never had any major Issues with ARMS. Until tonight, My arms Aimpoint ring wont close on a B&T mount for my HK94. Looks like I will have to do some shopping tomorrow for a new ring.



That is weird. I use an Aimpoint on my 94 on a B&T mount, and it fits just fine. I'm not saying your wrong, just odd that it doesn't work for you.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:49:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:

Originally Posted By Gungho_1989:
ARMS has always been a good product in my book, Ive never had any major Issues with ARMS. Until tonight, My arms Aimpoint ring wont close on a B&T mount for my HK94. Looks like I will have to do some shopping tomorrow for a new ring.



That is weird. I use an Aimpoint on my 94 on a B&T mount, and it fits just fine. I'm not saying your wrong, just odd that it doesn't work for you.



My arms 17 trilock wont lock on the B&T I am going to try to find a Standard Aimpoint ring tomorrow for the B&T mount. I think I would like the lower profile as well on the 94.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:17:14 PM EDT
I don't think there's much hatred against Arms. Just like many on Page1 said, there is something better. I had Arms mounts on everything a couple of years ago, and when I first saw the dual throw lever Larue Acog mount then, I called it an Arms copycat. It took about a year before many started using Larue on this board, and many already had experience with Arms products and gave glorious reviews. At the time I could care less, because I never experienced problems with mine and don't necessarily believe stuff on the internet without my own review. I didn't see the need to jump on the "Larue Bandwagon".

Then one of the members here had an Aimpoint mount go loose at an ARFcom shoot, right before our eyes. Then Duffy's started loosening too and was losing zero. Instead of talk, photos started showing up on the internet. Then my own 19S no longer was tight and you could slightly wobble it with your hands when mounted on several brands of rails.

The only Arms throw lever I have not switched out yet is on my M900, which for some reason seems 10 times tighter than any other Arms lever I've tried. Its a real bitch to open, almost to the point of needing a screwdriver to pry it. Eventually I'll get a Larue, or even the factory SureFire dual screw mount would work for me. Its just not something that critical that requires immediate replacement. I'd rather spend money on more ammo and training.

Hope my experiences helped clue you in.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:51:05 PM EDT
When you all say the mount loosens, you mean that you can move it slightly foreward and back when it is clamped? The movement would be just the distance allowed by the rail channel it was mounted in.

Would this movement alone have a tremendous effect on the zero?

I'm not saying that the movement is nothing to worry about, I am just curious if you all are saying that this fore and aft movement is causing a loss of zero.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:06:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zarathustra1:
When you all say the mount loosens, you mean that you can move it slightly foreward and back when it is clamped? The movement would be just the distance allowed by the rail channel it was mounted in.

A little of that is normal and shouldn't be to much of a problem because recoil will keep it pushed in the same location. The problem is when the throw lever gets loose that the mount can rock side to side.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:12:30 PM EDT
hey kisara

funny you mention that the only arms throw lever you still own is the m900 and that is the one of the mounts i still have as well and agree thats its a pita to get off, but would also add that the arms throwlever on my otal is the same way.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:07:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:10:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:43:10 AM EDT
I'm a civilian shooter, and own 2 ARMS 22M68's each for Aimpoints. I also have a Surefire 962 which used to have an ARMS mount, but I replaced it with a Larue offset mount to make it easier to use with a Tango Down grip. Having compared the two designs, I think the Larue is superior since it's adjustable. Both appear to be very strong, but I doubt I'll ever really find out just how strong. If I were going into harm's way on a regular basis I'd want the Larue mounts on everything. For recreational shooters or for HD guns, you can actually save money by buying ARMS stuff since there is quite a bit for sale used. The trick is to buy it from someone who is a hobbiest who hasn't abused it (one of those gucci guys we hear about). If I were buying a new mount right now, it would be a Larue, but I wouldn't buy one unless one of my ARMS mounts caused a problem. There are a lot of guys that just HAVE to have the latest/greatest even though they don't really use the stuff. I say more power to them!! The guys that really use this stuff don't have to make excuses - it's their life on the line so they buy the best they can get.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:04:08 PM EDT
I don't have any problems with my three ARMS mounts; if I ever do, then I'll give LT a try.

I do make sure that the mounts are slid forward on the rail slot when fliiping the lever though, so that the inertia of the attached device helps them stay put upon recoil.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:32:07 PM EDT
In general, I think ARMS makes good products. I have quite a few of them.
I did have one set of rings that came loose and a BUIS that was canted and would not zero. I use the 19's for flashlights and chucked the BUIS. I have switched to LR and Troy and have not had the same issues.
The biggest issue I think the board has with ARMS is 3tdk/Jack/Dick's attitude toward other products. I know it has turned me off. I have not bought an ARMS product since reading his posts.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:58:43 PM EDT
The ARMS mount for my M900 works flawlessly. Even though my FF Samson hand guard seems to be a bit narrower than my reciever (off spec.?) it's ARMS mount is still very secure.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 9:44:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 11:57:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChrisGene:
Guys, I cannot get over the way the LaRue throw lever cams dig into the rail everytime you open or close them. The floating shim in the ARMS mount is absolutely necessary. I am just amazed that so many people can look over this. I have one of these mounts, but I would ever dream of putting it on one of my guns with an aluminium rail (or steel).

How can anyone say this is a superior product?



I've seen this happen with two Larue SPR mounts so far. To make the mount stay put on the rail (no movement front to back) the levers need to be tightened pretty good. At this point the cam makes dings into the receiver so that the rail's left side surface finish is worn off eventually. This effect is worse when you have sand or dust on the rail, i.e. every time I'm at the range and mount/dismount the optics. I've tried it on several different uppers, from RRA to Bushmaster and Anchor Harvey (mil-spec), and they all exhibit the same wear, so the problem is not the anodizing.

However, I don't see it as a big problem, since I don't care what my rifles look like as long as they function as well as they have. I also use ARMS mounts, and they don't exhibit the same kind of wear, but they leave different kind of marks (less visible) on the rail if you don't mount it just right. This happens often if I mount the optics in a hurry or in the dark. But like I said, it's not a problem for me, so I'm a happy user of both ARMS and Larue mounts and am not looking to replace either.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 12:09:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 12:18:33 PM EDT by Zardoz]

Originally Posted By murderman:
I don't have any problems with my three ARMS mounts; if I ever do, then I'll give LT a try.

I do make sure that the mounts are slid forward on the rail slot when fliiping the lever though, so that the inertia of the attached device helps them stay put upon recoil.

I have never had a problem with mine, either. I mount my scope in the rings by sliding the front ring forward as far as it will go, and the rear ring backward and then mounting the scope; this keeps the scope & mount from moving at all.

ARMS throwlevers all have 4 washers that are "cupped"; if they are too tight or loose on the rail, the levers can be disassembled and the washers rearranged (or in extreme cases, one of them can be removed) to give a slight adjustment to the tension. Before anybody calls BS, it worked for mine, which were extremely tight on the rail.


P.S. I don't think anybody actually "hates" ARMS mounts, but the simple fact is that when they first came out with their throwlever mounts, they were the best thing going at the time, and ARMS knew it. Since then however, ARMS has pretty much sat back on their laurels, while other makers have taken the basic idea of a throwlever QD mount that returns to zero, and improved on it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 1:05:34 PM EDT
If I am not mistaken, the proper term for the "cupped washers" would be bellville springs.

Maybe someone will come up with an adjustable throw lever mount that incorporates the intermediate wear plate of the ARMS? Like you said, products need to be continually improved.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:00:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 2:05:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2005 3:43:42 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 3:23:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 9:55:14 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I for one have ZERO interest in seeing something like the "wear plates" that ARMS uses. I just got done mounting an ARMS mount a weapon and it must have taken me 3 tries to get and keep the flap over.

Rub marks or wear marks on your rails are normal thing that occurs with ALL mounts (if they tightened down correctly onto your rail).


C4



+1

The ARMS "wear plate" just gets in the way when trying to install accessories on the rail.

I far as I'm concerned the "wear plate" is about as functional and useful as putting a velcro strip on the brass deflector to keep it from getting marked up...
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 4:02:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Victor:
I guess for me it's because ALL my weapons here and 99% of the local LE folk use ARMS from MANY years back. So NOW because of the "new guys on the block", we have to spend thousands of dollars to switch over? If the product works, why spend thousands to switch over?

Vic

Can you send some of the old used ARMS stuff my way. Shit does not last forever so yes stuff breaks. Me personal most of my stuff is made from Arms and not one problem yet. Back to stuff breaking. Do the tracks break on the M1A1 tanks? If they do they must be crap. How many of you have broken shit on your cars and trucks. I seen so many older GMC trucks and cars with broken shit on them ,but everyone is still buying them. Yes is old but there stuff is still good. I have seen pictures of Larue stuff broke on this site too . Maybe some one can find that pic. So shit breaks when really stressed. Funny how Arms or Colt all ways gets the bees flying.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 12:00:46 AM EDT
Because LaRue is better.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 9:45:33 AM EDT
its a conspiracy to promote larue products
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 9:52:01 AM EDT
I thought that too until I bought Larue products and dealt with them. Larue products and service promotes itself. If there is a "conspiracy" I'd like to thank the conspirators for turning me on to Larue. I'd also like to thank Mark Larue for turning out a superlative product and providing great and friendly service!


Originally Posted By johndoexu:
its a conspiracy to promote larue products

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:31:39 AM EDT
Anyone here prefer bolt/screw-down mounts like the KAC type? I seems that any throw lever mount would become loose after a given amount of use (taking off and putting on).

Could someone explain exactly how you can adjust a LaRue? I have no experience with them. I have always used ARMS or KAC.

Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:44:45 AM EDT
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