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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/9/2004 4:52:51 AM EST
Which would be best for sniper use the Varminter type upper or a Bolt action rifle? What would be the pros and cons of the semi-auto VS the bolt action? Both would be Chambered 223. cal. Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 5:11:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 5:32:41 AM EST by mr_wilson]
While most will state "bolt action" as the answer to this question, (including myself), there are plenty that fail to realize that this rifle, the CR6724 or others like it can be everybit as accurate when fed the proper diet, (handloaded custom ammunition).



That stated, a true sniper rifle capable of 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards WILL HAVE to be a larger caliber than 223/5.56. Most rely on the 308/7.62NATO, for myself I prefer 30-06, others like 300 or 338 mags, but ALL/ANY of these caliber choices will make a better choice than the 223.

In good air on a good day, I can keep my 77grn. SMKs out of the rifle above in 1/2 MOA at the 800 yard line. That's 4" but the point here are the words "In good air on a good day", snipers cannot rely on perfect conditions but must be able to perform their tasks in the WORST of conditions. At 100 yards, yes the rifle above will get the job done, even out to 300 possibly.

For any range tho I prefer something more substantial, like this:
Kustom Krieger barrel'd Rem 700 30-06


Old thread on specs for this rifle here:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=5&t=173111&w=activePop

Mike

edited 'cus I kan't spel
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 5:41:16 AM EST
If you're dead set on staying w/ the AR platform then I suggest you check out AA's 6.5mm Grendel. Here's a pic of mine. I won't bore you with great details that you can find all over this board in regards to accuracy and long range performance. Ideal for what you're looking for, much larger bullet then the .223 as well.



Bolt action is the preferred tool for long distance shooting though. They're inherently more accurate. For example, here's a pic of the first 3 shots I ever fired through my dad's GA Precision custom .308.. For a first group w/ zero experience on his trigger I think it's pretty damn impressive and speeks much about the quality of the gun and builder.

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 5:54:24 AM EST
i REALLY hope the grendel survives.....

nice gun
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:04:25 AM EST
thank you, I'm kind of fond of it also
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:05:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:
If you're dead set on staying w/ the AR platform then I suggest you check out AA's 6.5mm Grendel. Here's a pic of mine. I won't bore you with great details that you can find all over this board in regards to accuracy and long range performance. Ideal for what you're looking for, much larger bullet then the .223 as well.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Grendel3_Medium_-med.jpg

Bolt action is the preferred tool for long distance shooting though. They're inherently more accurate. For example, here's a pic of the first 3 shots I ever fired through my dad's GA Precision custom .308.. For a first group w/ zero experience on his trigger I think it's pretty damn impressive and speeks much about the quality of the gun and builder.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Gardner_308_Medium_.jpg



Sweet set-up! Damn now I have to spend more $$$$.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:15:53 AM EST
Another few Grendel pics:









If you're really deadset on the AR platform in .223 cal then you can't go wrong with a Bushmaster Varminter... definitely a tack driver


Pic of my Bushmaster Varminter:

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:25:14 AM EST
A big consideration for any sniper weapon system platform should also be simplicity. While not overly complex, especially for an experienced user, a semi-automatic weapon does have a greater potential for mechanical failures than a bolt action rifle - all things being equal. That doesn't mean that a semi-auto can't make a good sniper weapon. I just like the KISS priniciple, especially if you are talking life or death situations.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:27:35 AM EST
Go with an SPR or SAM-R set up.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:28:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 6:30:13 AM EST by SHIVAN]
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:44:36 AM EST
Damn you Lawman107, now I want to go buy a Rem 700 custom and a BM Varmiter. I can never keep money in the bank too long, damn it
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:47:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 6:50:18 AM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i REALLY hope the grendel survives.....




I believe they could, if they'd just cater a little more to the wants of their potential customers. The minute they start selling upper components rather than complete uppers at reasonable prices, I'm on it like [insert anecdote here].

I would build mine in either a Mk12 Mod1 SPR clone or a SAM-R clone.

To answer your thread question, if you really need .223 for sniper work, stick with the AR platform, as it is plenty accurate.

A .223 bolt gun just doesn't make sense to me. I'd get a .308 at a minimum.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:51:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i REALLY hope the grendel survives.....




I believe they could, if they'd just cater a little more to the wants of their potential customers. The minute they start selling upper components rather than complete uppers at reasonable prices, I'm on it like [insert anecdote here].



Time will tell, it's still early in the release phase of the game. Matter of fact I was literally the first customer in the country to receive one, lol...I would like to see them do whatever it takes to ensure long term survivability of the caliber and cheaper ammo, lol... $1 dollar a round for factory rolled stuff is pricey..
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:53:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 6:55:12 AM EST by 02Overlander]

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i REALLY hope the grendel survives.....





I would build mine in either a Mk12 Mod1 SPR clone or a SAM-R clone.

A .223 bolt gun just doesn't make sense to me. I'd get a .308 at a minimum.



Agreed on both accounts
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:56:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i REALLY hope the grendel survives.....




I believe they could, if they'd just cater a little more to the wants of their potential customers. The minute they start selling upper components rather than complete uppers at reasonable prices, I'm on it like [insert anecdote here].



Time will tell, it's still early in the release phase of the game. Matter of fact I was literally the first customer in the country to receive one, lol...I would like to see them do whatever it takes to ensure long term survivability of the caliber and cheaper ammo, lol... $1 dollar a round for factory rolled stuff is pricey..



So I patiently wait and in the mean time, I resist the urge to jump on the 6.8 SPC bandwagon.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:02:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 7:12:23 AM EST by 02Overlander]




So I patiently wait and in the mean time, I resist the urge to jump on the 6.8 SPC bandwagon.



I would already own a 6.8SPC if they'd just get some damn ammo out. I'm not chancing spending another large chunk of change for two potential wildcat cartridges though. If the 6.8SPC goes mainstream ammo wise I'll jump on the bandwagon as well. Shit, with what I spent on my Bushy and Colt LE M4's and mods for the 13th I could have had one hell of a rig built by MSTN, but I refuse to order unless I can get locally available ammo for it at a decent price sometime in the near future.

Edit: Sorry for the hijack
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:47:29 AM EST
Which would be best for sniper use the Varminter type upper or a Bolt action rifle? What would be the pros and cons of the semi-auto VS the bolt action? Both would be Chambered 223. cal. Thanks in advance LAWMAN107

What are you gonna shoot. HUMANS or PRAIRIE DOGS?

Sniper use to me = TANGOS. (AGGRESSORS,ACTORS,BAD GUYS) what ever nomenclature You like.

The benefit of an AR-15 is modularity(using QUALITY PARTS)

Multiple caliber choicesar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=197826

If you choose an AR-15 .223 (like you said) you have a well stocked world of parts, Bullet subcomponents,(ie brass, projectiles), magazines that work. Quality barrels for less than $300, match triggers, Stocks, handguards, etc etc.

Just make sure you get a barrel with the right twist rate for the Projectile weight you decide to dedicate the weapon to. 1/7 is wonderfull for 75gr 77gr 80gr. 1/9 is great for 75gr 62gr 55gr.
There are alot more variables here to deal with. but these are just a few.

The Ar-15 platform in .223 , affords rapid follow up shots, the ability to change mags quickly, The avalibility to choose components to fit your ergonomic preferances. And also the m1913 Picatinny rail
that meets a milspec(at least in concept) and allows you to have multiple optic packages that can be removed and replaced rapidly with minimal disruption to original zero(in theory).

Bolt guns on the other hand are a different world with some similarities. Usually A factory stock rem 700 .308 PSS or VS will shoot 1MOA at 100yds with Fed Gold medal or similar. A lot of work is needed to produce a 100% sniper rifle (for use in a military environment) But a REM 700 Varment Synthetic is a great choice. There are a million parts avalible for them. At minimum get Leupold bases and rings, I like to use Badger Ord products on all of my bolt guns (never had any problem what so ever, You pay for quality).

You can get a really good AR set up for under $2000 ( gun,Leupold scope, mounts, vltor stock, match trigger, etcetc)

You can get a good Rem 700 set up for about $1200-$1500

I did say good not GREAT Not 1/2 MOA (by the way is better than 98% of humans can shoot anyway) But hovering around 1MOA. At minimum get a good Scope Leupold and Gun, rock river, bushy, colt and feed it good ammo and keep it clean and the mags(USGI) looking nice and you should have a good set up. If you want real SNIPER stuff ask me again, This stuff is just good Civvy commercial product that can make you a nice weapon system.


Link Posted: 9/9/2004 8:38:00 AM EST
as stated above, bolt action are more acurrate than semi, but you can get a really accurate AR setup. but for the same price (or cheaper) you can build yourself a nice Remingtion 700. I'm personaly going to be getting a Rem 700 VS (varmint synthetic stock) in 7.62 nato, and a Leupold scope, well capable of 3/4 MOA out of the box
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:08:50 PM EST
I have found that .308 is much more accurate than the 30.06. Although if you can find a good 06 gun and you like it, and can spend the time to custom the ammo, it can be pretty damn accurate too. Personally, when it comes to bolt guns, .300 Win Sav. or .270 Rem. My brother has a Ruger 77 MKII in a 300 and a Remington 700 in .270, both have been bedded. The MKII has a bi-pod. I wish I had some pics to show. The .270 I load and have found that it is THE flattest and the most straight shooting gun I've ever shot that you didn't have to refinance to buy. The Rem SUCKS with factory ammo(Rem Corelockt), I can't shoot even 3MOA with factory stuff. With custom loads, I can get it down to 1/2-3/4 MOA(1/2 is NOT normal with it, I think if it was a .30 it would deflect the wind better, as I shot the 1/2's when there was almost no wind), the Ruger, I can shoot 1 moa with it. The rem has trigger work, and is at a smooth 4.5# pull. I have a kit AR with a 16" Hbar on it that shoots around a 3 moa with 55grn factory ammo(1:9 twist), I just bought dies for it and I am going to see if it will shoot better with hand loads soon, but that takes time to find a good one. One of the guys I shoot with, his dad does CMP matches and has a 22'' JP NM upper on a bushy lower and some sort of two stage trigger than I can't remember. The barrel is fluted, and probably cryo too and a bunch of other special things that i can't remember. It will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 moa with 77 grn bullets, but I have never shot it that well, but I've put less than 50 rounds through it and the pull isn't right for me. Basically, I would say decide what it's for, if you just want a cool gun that is close to mil-spec sniper rifle or whatever, start with a Rem 700 police and have fun building it yourself. For a really serious varmiting scenario, go with the AR.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:47:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Bolt gun. .308 or larger..........308 bucks the wind better, hits harder at most distances, makes a bigger hole, defeats more "barriers", etc, etc, etc.......

I really think we need A LOT more information. Are you going to be deploying this weapon in an actual role of sniping? Or just want a "sniper" weapon?

.223 is not the best choice, but if you are an LEO Sniper it should work perfectly, as most LEO shots are sub-100yds anyway.



This would be for LEO use only and fun on the side.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 5:27:08 PM EST
With the advances in modern manufacturing, the "accuracy gap" between a bolt rifle, and a semi-automatic rifle is basically nil. (assuming both are of good quality) There are those who prefer one to the other, therefore making one "better/more suited/whatever" based on which they prefer. The H&K PSG1 is considered by many to be the most accurate rifle in the world, and yes, its the semi-automatic one. (308 of course) The person mentioning the .223's use for law enforcement sniping is correct to the best of my knowledge. Average LE "snipe" is 72yards, with most being much closer. Almost hard to consider it sniping instead of plinking. I'll agree with using the .308 for real world good guy vs. bad guy situation. More power, range, and wind resistance.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:10:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:




So I patiently wait and in the mean time, I resist the urge to jump on the 6.8 SPC bandwagon.



I would already own a 6.8SPC if they'd just get some damn ammo out. I'm not chancing spending another large chunk of change for two potential wildcat cartridges though. If the 6.8SPC goes mainstream ammo wise I'll jump on the bandwagon as well. Shit, with what I spent on my Bushy and Colt LE M4's and mods for the 13th I could have had one hell of a rig built by MSTN, but I refuse to order unless I can get locally available ammo for it at a decent price sometime in the near future.

Edit: Sorry for the hijack



What he said.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:18:56 PM EST
50 BMG with a massive thermal scope. If you can see it. You can hit it. It will die. Also good for stoping autos. With a thermal scope nite time is a go. So is behind the wall shots.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:35:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:
If you're dead set on staying w/ the AR platform then I suggest you check out AA's 6.5mm Grendel. Here's a pic of mine. I won't bore you with great details that you can find all over this board in regards to accuracy and long range performance. Ideal for what you're looking for, much larger bullet then the .223 as well.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Grendel3_Medium_-med.jpg

Bolt action is the preferred tool for long distance shooting though. They're inherently more accurate. For example, here's a pic of the first 3 shots I ever fired through my dad's GA Precision custom .308.. For a first group w/ zero experience on his trigger I think it's pretty damn impressive and speeks much about the quality of the gun and builder.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Gardner_308_Medium_.jpg



Your 3 shot group is very nice. I'm glad you didn't blow up the gun and lose any body parts considering your load is more than 3.5 grains over maximun listed for the round. Since these where the "first 3 rounds ever fired" in a brand new build, "I" think you are very lucky.



mark
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:38:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 6:43:43 PM EST by 02Overlander]

Originally Posted By markmcjunkins:

Originally Posted By 02Overlander:
If you're dead set on staying w/ the AR platform then I suggest you check out AA's 6.5mm Grendel. Here's a pic of mine. I won't bore you with great details that you can find all over this board in regards to accuracy and long range performance. Ideal for what you're looking for, much larger bullet then the .223 as well.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Grendel3_Medium_-med.jpg

Bolt action is the preferred tool for long distance shooting though. They're inherently more accurate. For example, here's a pic of the first 3 shots I ever fired through my dad's GA Precision custom .308.. For a first group w/ zero experience on his trigger I think it's pretty damn impressive and speeks much about the quality of the gun and builder.

www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/104Gardner_308_Medium_.jpg



Your 3 shot group is very nice. I'm glad you didn't blow up the gun and lose any body parts considering your load is more than 3.5 grains over maximun listed for the round. Since these where the "first 3 rounds ever fired" in a brand new build, "I" think you are very lucky.



mark



You misunderstood, this was my first time shooting my fathers .308 he's got a shitload of experience in reloading, he's been doing it since before I was born, I turned 28 last month
His gun, his loads, his range

Edit: and to add, the gun isn't new, he's worked up these loads for this rifle. Actually he said these aren't even it's favorites. That was the piont of the post, to show what a high end Bolt gun is capable of. Didn't even occur to me someone would critiqe his loads and misunderstand
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:43:00 PM EST
thanks for the feedback. There are new guys joining every day and I'd hate to see someone leap before working up.
Did your dad ask for an extended throat or improved chamber?
What kind of fps is the 45gr. load pushing the 175's?

thanks

mark
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:46:32 PM EST
You would have to ask him that, he's a member of this forum and a daily reader as I am. I'll get him to check out this thread tommorrow and fill you in on what you want to know
I don't know all of the specifics on his .308, just the basics and that it was a limited run of 50 built by George.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 9:55:35 PM EST
The Army is now moving back away from bolt guns for sniper use. From combat use during the last 3 years we have decide to go back to a 7.62/.308 semi auto. A sniper needs to be able to engage mutliple, fast moving targets in a very short time sometimes or that one long range shot. There is a big difference between an LEO marksman and a military sniper. Then throw on IR aim lights, thermals, Night Vision Optics, day scope, back up irons, etc. Need for Match ammo, tracer and AP.

cd
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 6:08:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lawman107:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Bolt gun. .308 or larger..........308 bucks the wind better, hits harder at most distances, makes a bigger hole, defeats more "barriers", etc, etc, etc.......

I really think we need A LOT more information. Are you going to be deploying this weapon in an actual role of sniping? Or just want a "sniper" weapon?

.223 is not the best choice, but if you are an LEO Sniper it should work perfectly, as most LEO shots are sub-100yds anyway.



This would be for LEO use only and fun on the side.




I'd recommend something in .308 in that case.

For multiple reasons.

1. You're not going to be carrying/dragging the rifle for long distances. Weight isn't a handicap. Military snipers use very heavy rifles (18 pounds for the M40A3?) but that is a function of needing a rifle capable of very precise shoting at quite long ranges (and more than a little "rifle team" input I suspect). The weight limitation you're dealing with in an LEO scenario is that of an "accurate enough for 3-5 shots into 3 inches at no more than 200 meters" rifle. .308 isn't going to be all that much heavier than .223 in that case.

2. Barriers of various sorts are a real possibility. A military sniper can afford to pass on a less than ideal shot, or risk taking the less than ideal shot. Not so for LEO use. Glass, in particular, is a likely barrier. Look up the "Good Guys" hostage incident. Also the poor bastard that survived several Federal agent (DEA?) 5.56mm rounds at under 2m thought his windshield a couple of years ago... Heavier .30 caliber bullets at only slightly lesser velocities are always going to do more damage.

3. All issues of weapons platform aside, .308 will always have more energy and more potential to do damage than any .223 round using a similar projectile. This can be critical. I still remember watching the video of an Alexandria (Virginia) SRT officer being killed (circa 1988?) by a bad guy who had just taken a "fatal" .223 hit in the upper back. The bad guy (kidnapper) died, but not before he was able to murder a police officer with a shotgun. A head shot would have had a much different result, but that would have been true even if the police sniper had been using a .22 LR. Poor choice of .223 ammuniton? Yes. Would a .308 have done better? We can never be sure, but it's very unlikely that it would have done any worse. Such issues as weapon weight, accuracy, etc, wouldn't have made any difference under the circumstances, any off-the-shelf hunting rifle could have made the shot.
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