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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/14/2004 2:00:18 PM EST
I want to build M4A2 with flash Supress and collapable stock and someone told me I need to have a BATF license to do so. If this is true, I can't build my own.

In light of the recent end of ban, any help on the topic would be great.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:23:54 PM EST
If it is legal in your state, then you need none if it is for personal use and not for resale.

Unless BATF changed the laws as of last week.

Type 01 -
DEALER in firearms other than destructive devices.
(includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and National
Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.)

18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(B)

Fee:

$ 200.00 for the first three (3) years.
$ 90.00 on renewal.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 02 -
PAWNBROKER in firearms other than destructive devices.
(includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and National
Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.)

18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(B)

Fee:

$ 200.00 for the first three (3) years.
$ 90.00 on renewal.

Type 03 -
COLLECTOR OF CURIOS AND RELICS.
(pertains exclusively to firearms classified as curios and relics, and it's purpose is to facilitate a personal collection. It is NOT a license to buy and sell curios and relics.

18 U.S.C 923(b)

Fee:

$ 30.00 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 CR (5310.16)

Type 06 -
MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(C)

Fee:

$ 30.00 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 07 -
MANUFACTURER OF FIREARMS other than destructive devices.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(B)

Fee:

$ 150 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)


Type 09 -
DEALER IN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(A)

Fee:

$ 3,000.00 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 10 -
MANUFACTURER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AMMUNITION
FOR DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES OR ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(A)

Fee:

$ 3,000.00 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 11 -
IMPORTER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AMMUNITION FOR
DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES OR ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

18 U.S.C 923(a)(2)(A)

Fee:

$ 3,000.00 for three (3) years.
Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

BATF LINK Here
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:12:41 PM EST
You can build your own M4A2 with a flash suppressor and a collapsible stock, without a license as long as it complies with your state laws and has at least a 16" barrel. You can sell it at a later date but you can not build it with the intent of resale.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:30:25 PM EST
Correct. If it's for you then you don't need any licenses.

If using a 14.5" bbl then you MUST have a flash suppressor permantently affixed to bring the overall bbl length to 16+ inches. Permanently means just that: Permanent. As in silver soldered to 1100 degrees F, or pinned on.

If you're talkin REAL M4 as in full auto capability, then I believe you need a Class II manufacturers licence, regardless who the rifle is for. This includes LOTS of paperwork, federal background checks, fingerprint cards, LEO signatures, and one more thing.....$1000.00 per year. When you decide to stop paying $1000 every year to keep your rifle then you have to sell and/or surrender it to an appropriate indivual.

I think Class III Dealers need a written request from the local law enforcment before obtaineing a select fire weapon. I'm pretty sure that a Class III is allowed ONE rifle per modle. As in: You can not have two M4's. But you can have a M16A2, and an M16A3, and an M4. A class III does not give you the power to say, "I'll have one of these...two of those...Oh and throw in a few of those over there."

You can build a M4 clone that LOOKS like a true M4. Just no full auto. Otherwise it will be ungodly expensive.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 5:33:23 AM EST
It sorta depends. What exactly do you mean? If you want to assemble a commercial receiver into an M-4 configuration, anyone can. Just assemble the parts. If you want to "make" a lower receiver for yourself, then again, anyone can. If you want to "make" (manufacture) a lower receiver to build an M-4 configuration to sell, then you need at least a class 7 FFL
All NFA regs apply. State/local regs may be more restrictive.
Dean
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 6:27:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By newbe:
Correct. If it's for you then you don't need any licenses.

If using a 14.5" bbl then you MUST have a flash suppressor permantently affixed to bring the overall bbl length to 16+ inches. Permanently means just that: Permanent. As in silver soldered to 1100 degrees F, or pinned on.

If you're talkin REAL M4 as in full auto capability, then I believe you need a Class II manufacturers licence, regardless who the rifle is for. This includes LOTS of paperwork, federal background checks, fingerprint cards, LEO signatures, and one more thing.....$1000.00 per year. When you decide to stop paying $1000 every year to keep your rifle then you have to sell and/or surrender it to an appropriate indivual.

I think Class III Dealers need a written request from the local law enforcment before obtaineing a select fire weapon. I'm pretty sure that a Class III is allowed ONE rifle per modle. As in: You can not have two M4's. But you can have a M16A2, and an M16A3, and an M4. A class III does not give you the power to say, "I'll have one of these...two of those...Oh and throw in a few of those over there."

You can build a M4 clone that LOOKS like a true M4. Just no full auto. Otherwise it will be ungodly expensive.



An SOT (machinegun dealer) can have two samples of each type. However, you must have a law enforcement "love letter" stating that a local PD wants to test that type of weapon before you can purchase it. If you are an FFL07/SOT (machinegun manufacturer) then you can build your own MG's and can have as many as you like on hand, as long as you build them. However, it's cheaper in the long run to just pony up the big cash and buy a transferable M16. Plus, the ATF does not take kindly to people getting their SOT's just to collect guns. You need to have a real business or you can get thrown in the slammer. Last time I checked real M16's are going for over $10K and HK stuff is getting close to $15K.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 10:59:58 AM EST
OK, Maybe I'm not using the right terminology to describe the weapon I want. I like the short barrel as the 14.5 and flash supress but really I want accuracy the most so here is what I want:

I want to buy an 18" barrel and float tube and trigger parts from JP engineering and then I want to buy a complete stock and lower receiver, without the parts (to install the trigger). I presume then I don't need any license to build that.

Is M4 indicative of machine gun only? If so, then I'm really building an AR-15. What is the A2 stand for?

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 12:01:03 PM EST

OK, here is info from this site....

M4
In 1994, the U.S. Army officially adopted its second carbine of the 20th century. Though carbine versions of the M16 had been used all along (as the XM177 as well as the CAR-15), demand for these was limited to select groups. With the increase in the use of Special Operations forces during and after the Cold War, the demand for a shorter, lightweight weapon was increased.


"The M4 was developed by Colt's Manufacturing Company, and is intended to be used by Special Operations forces as well as other select members of the military. It is designed to replace a variety of carbines and SMGs in the Army's arsenal, as well as to repeat the accuracy and reliability of the M16A2. It uses a 14.5" barrel, and a four-position telescoping stock while maintaining the ability to mount an M203 grenade launcher. In the collapsed position, it measures under 30 inches, and weights just over 5 1/2 pounds, with an effective range of 600 meters. The M4 is available with 3-shot bursts (M4) as well as full-auto capabilities (M4A1).

Both versions of the M4 are equipped with a Picatinny-Weaver Rail system to replace the carry handle. This allows for a variety of sighting systems to be mounted atop the receiver, from the standard handle with A2 sights to night-vision devices, scopes, and lasers."

So, I understand the BAN was about flash suppressor, short barrel and collapsable stock. Now that the BAN is over, I presume one should check with state to see what you can build, to keep or to sell. It looks now though that I don't really want to build an M4 as I don't need flash suppress or expensive collapsable stock, just kick but barrel and good trigger! Thanks for postsh.gif

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:22:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By newbe:
If you're talkin REAL M4 as in full auto capability, then I believe you need a Class II manufacturers licence, regardless who the rifle is for. This includes LOTS of paperwork, federal background checks, fingerprint cards, LEO signatures, and one more thing.....$1000.00 per year. When you decide to stop paying $1000 every year to keep your rifle then you have to sell and/or surrender it to an appropriate indivual.



A CII can make a machine gun. Cost for C2 is $50/year for FFL and $500 or $1000 a year for SOT stamp.

Lots of paperwork? It really is not that much more than a CIII fills out.

No LEO signature is required to get ANY FFL - just notify CLEO. Just one background check, same that all FFL's have done.

What is the total cost difference between CII and CIII everything else being the same? $20 a year after first year...

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 11:04:03 PM EST
Yes, a true M4 is a machine gun. However...You can build yourself an M4gery. Basiclly, its like I mentioned earlier: It is an exact clone of an M4 just without the full auto capabilities. You set 'em next to each other and you'll never know the difference (other than the "safe", "semi", and "auto" stamped in the lower reciever.

The only catch is the flash suppressor and bbl. A bbl that has the step cut into it for use with a M203 would be considered "M4 profile".

I have two M4 profile bbls. One is a 16" bbl and has a standard A2 flash suppressor on it. I can remove the f/s because with the f/s removed the bbl is 16".

My other bbl is a 14.5" bbl. This is the bbl length that the military uses with a standard A2 f/s. This means that if I remove the f/s, the bbl length is 14.5". Since federal law states that the bbl must be a minimum of 16", I have permanently attatched the f/s (silver solder) to the bbl making it 16.1" A standard A2 f/s is to short for this so I used a Vortex f/s which is longer. (It works better anyway)

If you want a closer M4 look, they make A2 f/s that are 1.5" long which would bring your bbl length tho its legal length.

The "A2" that you speak of is in regards to the upper reciever. An A2 upper reciever has a fixed carry handle. The M4 uses a A3 upper reciever which has the removable carry handle. Only the early M4's had A2 uppers.

All these #'s were pretty overwhelming for me at first. So many different configurations. You'll get it!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:32:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By budam:
What is the total cost difference between CII and CIII everything else being the same? $20 a year after first year...




You forgot the State Dept Registration that a C2 has to pay every year. I think it's now $600 per year but you get a discount if you pay 5 years in advance. A C3 does not have to pay this.
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