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Posted: 7/17/2010 4:32:04 AM EDT
Made a run of Retro ARs?
 I started a thread in the Armalite forum to put the bug in their ear: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=27&t=192459 So if this interests you, have at it. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 4:46:39 AM EDT
[#1]
I hate to sound grumpy, but every company that tries to re-issue something vintage, always seem to cut corners and skimp on the important details. I don't think there's anyway Armalite would take the time to get them right like the originals.
I got really excited when the new AR180 re-issues were coming out. When I saw the polymer receivers, I was mad for a year. 
If they could get it right, like many members here have done, then heck yeah !!! But I just don't see it. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 4:54:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I hate to sound grumpy, but every company that tries to re-issue something vintage, always seem to cut corners and skimp on the important details. I don't think there's anyway Armalite would take the time to get them right like the originals. I got really excited when the new AR180 re-issues were coming out. When I saw the polymer receivers, I was mad for a year.
If they could get it right, like many members here have done, then heck yeah !!! But I just don't see it. I agree with Hal... if their AR180 and AR10B are examples of what they would put out, I am not on board to buy one. I appreaciate them making the AR180 and AR10B, but they are not very close to re-issues of historical rifles. John Thomas |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:07:52 AM EDT
[#3]
hate to be a wet blanket but, as much as I would like to see something like this happen....I don't think it ever will because it would be cost prohibitive to actually build one correctly
these larger manufacturers just don't have the retro styled parts available anymore to do a proper rifle or carbine, and it would cost them to much to retool for the needed parts or to purchase them from the smaller places that do still make them. after all they are in the business to make money, and if they did build it correctly they would have to price something like this way too high after buying lowers and other retro styled parts to make their self imposed percentage of profit per unit, especially considering the number of units they would actually sell. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:15:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Yeah, when they came out with the AR-10B, it was sort of like the original Sudanese AR-10 but not quite. I asked Armalite if they had plans of making their AR-10B a "screw-for-screw" copy of the original AR-10 (ie. swap out the A2 rear sights for the original sight design, same handguard design, etc) and was told that they wouldn't do it because it would involve seperate machining and expense. Oh well, guess I will always just lust after the original AR-10 in my dreams.
The AR-180B is another example of managing to not quite get things right. I was hoping again for a screw-for-screw copy but alas, they came out with a polymer lower. Now there is talk they are looking at coming out with a newer AR-180 design that uses a metal lower but will look at adding rails to it. Again, just missing the mark all together as far as we true retro-heads go. Another related story like this involves Toyota. When they said they were going to come out with the FJ40 again, I thought, "great, I always loved those old "Jap jeeps." Then they came out with something that only resemblance to the original was the white roof tops. Not necessarily a bad vehicle but a real let down for folks that love the older stuff that we grew up with. No, I don't see Armalite coming out with a correct retro without managing to screw it up. No, I'll stick with my surplus parts builds and NDS lowers for that authentic taste! 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:28:36 AM EDT
[#5]
In other corners of the collecting world, companies will do a small limited run of an item. It's usually quite expensive compared to other products but, it's a collectors thing. And, they tend to hold value because only say... 1000 were ever made. It could work if they did it right. I've never even seen a real 50's AR-10. Even if it was going for 5 grand, I'd be all over it like a fly on shit. There's no way anyone is going to get a real one for that price.
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:30:29 AM EDT
[#6]
I'll use the Sig556 as an example.
When people heard that Sig would be comming out with the 55X line in the US people were thrilled. Some people wanted an updated modernized model, others wanted the originals. Sig delivered the 556. The purest called it an abomination and claimed they wanted the original at any cost. (Many people on ARFCOM said they would buy the original at a higher cost). Later a small run of high prices 556's configured the same as the older models were released, and people whined about the cost. If Armalite made a run of retro rifles. . . any deviation from the originals would case some people to complain and not buy them. the cost would be higher preventing many people from buying them. people would say, "well they made one model, but I'm waiting for this other model) (Ie they made a 601, but I wanted a XM177) they would be making it for a limited market. Face it, the retro crowd is very small. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:36:46 AM EDT
[#7]
actually I think you would have better luck trying to get Bushmaster to do a retro styled carbine based off of their SuperLight Carbine, as it would only require a proper A1 upper and a more appropriate retro stocks
they could let you build several different model variations all based off of this basic carbine just by having a drop down menu with different options for stocks and muzzle devices so you could do a XM177E2 with the addition of a slip-over style moderator, or a 653 with just the addition of a proper A1 length stock |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:38:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Face it, the retro crowd is very small. I prefer to use the term "Elite!!!"
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Posted: 7/17/2010 5:51:42 AM EDT
[#9]
You guys have some good points.
But still, being able to buy brand new retro AR with the Armalite roll mark would be cool. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 6:59:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80% lowers that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle?
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Posted: 7/17/2010 7:02:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Now that I think about it more....
I wonder if Armalite & NoDak spud could get together & come up with an agreement for NoDak Spud to make a run of Armalite marked retro lowers? |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 7:20:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Now that I think about it more.... I wonder if Armalite & NoDak spud could get together & come up with an agreement for NoDak Spud to make a run of Armalite marked retro lowers? This idea - I LIKE!!! 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 7:29:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Now that I think about it more.... I wonder if Armalite & NoDak spud could get together & come up with an agreement for NoDak Spud to make a run of Armalite marked retro lowers? why don't you just buy the NDS lower that you want, and then send it to Ident and have them put a retro styled Armalite logo on it? then you could build whatever model you want, as correct as you want ,and in the end it will be cheaper and quicker than you will ever get anything done from Armalite |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 7:52:40 AM EDT
[#14]
I started building ARs a couple of years ago and I don't think I'll ever again buy one that is factory built.
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Posted: 7/17/2010 8:23:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80$ loweres that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle? Don't they come without the markings now? The pictures don't show any of the markings. They look like blank receivers. I was thinking of getting one for my prototype project but, if they come marked then it isn't work the trouble. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 8:43:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Face it, the retro crowd is very small. I prefer to use the term "Elite!!!" The retro crowd is huge , The guys who see a retro & think that would be more fun than another Flattop or M4gery build happen every day ... |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 8:47:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80$ loweres that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle? Don't they come without the markings now? The pictures don't show any of the markings. They look like blank receivers. I was thinking of getting one for my prototype project but, if they come marked then it isn't work the trouble. TM 80% receivers have "SAFE" and "FIRE" engraved on both sides 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 8:59:15 AM EDT
[#18]
I wouldn't buy a factory built retro rifle for several reasons.
1) I already have all most of the retro rifle versions I want. The rifles I have left to build are H&R (almost complete) and Hydramatic M16A1s and Colt 606. Why would I want an ArmaLite logo on those? 2) The only rifles that had the Armalite logo were the prototypes and the Colt 601 (which was not made by Armalite) I doubt Colt would allow ArmaLite put their name on a rifle for nothing. 3) The current ArmaLite logo looks nothing like the original Armalite logo. 4) ArmaLite would use an A2 lower which would not work for me. I'd end up replacing their lower with an NDS lower. Why pay excise tax and inflated factory prices just to have to fix their short sightedness. 5) The only company I would trust to build a correct retro rifle because they're as anal as I am is NDS, and they're not going to build complete rifles. Nor would I ever want them to. I prefer they concentrate on bringing new reproduction parts to the market. If they started to concentrate on complete rifles then that would take time from more important work. Plus I don't think they would sell very many complete rifles. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 9:02:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Face it, the retro crowd is very small. I prefer to use the term "Elite!!!" The retro crowd is huge , The guys who see a retro & think that would be more fun than another Flattop or M4gery build happen every day ... I agree that once a lot of folks try out a retro rifle, they have to have one as well and while our numbers aren't "small" and in fact are growing (you can judge that by retro parts prices when you look at supply and demand), when compared to the overall picture of all the ARs out there, we're really nothing more than a little blip on the radar. Really though, I don't mind being a small segment. Keeps prices lower. 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 9:28:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
TM 80% receivers have "SAFE" and "FIRE" engraved on both sides That sucks. I didn't want to butcher an NDS but since I won't be gaining anything from buying an 80% it looks like that's the way to go. Less work overall, and it's already milled out, plus their blem lowers are a steal anyway. EDIT: Are you sure they come marked already? I saw this thread here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=503992. Is his lower not from TM? |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 9:35:32 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80$ loweres that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle? Don't they come without the markings now? The pictures don't show any of the markings. They look like blank receivers. I was thinking of getting one for my prototype project but, if they come marked then it isn't work the trouble. They come with safe and fire marked on both sides for the AR15,I don't know about the AR10,but assume they do too. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 9:45:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
TM 80% receivers have "SAFE" and "FIRE" engraved on both sides That sucks. I didn't want to butcher an NDS but since I won't be gaining anything from buying an 80% it looks like that's the way to go. Less work overall, and it's already milled out, plus their blem lowers are a steal anyway. EDIT: Are you sure they come marked already? I saw this thread here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=503992. Is his lower not from TM? 110% sure,I have 3.If you want to do some hands on,you CAN do what I did.BEFORE you cut the fire control pocket out,set the lower on a VERY solid surface.Then take a ball peen hammer (ball end) and start tapping away all around the and on the letters.Few hundred times.Take time out and hit it with the flat side of the hammer too.(sheetmetal 101),I also ran a file over it during the process every once in a while.The idea is to displace the metal around the letters enough to close in the recesses.Also hit it several times with emory cloth wrapped around a nice flat piece of oak.Takes time but comes out nice ETA pic added of my 601.I reprofiled the 80%er to slabside configuration and tapped out the safe fire. 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 10:08:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80$ loweres that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle? Don't they come without the markings now? The pictures don't show any of the markings. They look like blank receivers. I was thinking of getting one for my prototype project but, if they come marked then it isn't work the trouble. They come with safe and fire marked on both sides for the AR15,I don't know about the AR10,but assume they do too. Have you bought an AR15 lower lately from TM? I had one show up on 3 Jun and it had no "safe" "fire" markings. I was flabergasted, because before I ordered, I also asked about getting an unmarked one, and the answer was, "no". Maybe they've changed their program? John Thomas |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 11:07:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Now that I think about it more.... I wonder if Armalite & NoDak spud could get together & come up with an agreement for NoDak Spud to make a run of Armalite marked retro lowers? why don't you just buy the NDS lower that you want, and then send it to Ident and have them put a retro styled Armalite logo on it? then you could build whatever model you want, as correct as you want ,and in the end it will be cheaper and quicker than you will ever get anything done from Armalite I've never heard of Ident, but I admit I'm not up on some things. Got a link? |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 11:28:07 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 7/17/2010 11:37:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hate to say I agree with all above.Hell I called Tactical Machine and asked if they would/could supply me with 80$ loweres that did not have the SAFE and FIRE on the right side of the receiver.Was told NO as the work they do is all done with CNC machines and it would require "re-programming" the computer.They weren't even willing to do a small thing like that,imagine trying to set up for an entire rifle? Don't they come without the markings now? The pictures don't show any of the markings. They look like blank receivers. I was thinking of getting one for my prototype project but, if they come marked then it isn't work the trouble. They come with safe and fire marked on both sides for the AR15,I don't know about the AR10,but assume they do too. Have you bought an AR15 lower lately from TM? I had one show up on 3 Jun and it had no "safe" "fire" markings. I was flabergasted, because before I ordered, I also asked about getting an unmarked one, and the answer was, "no". Maybe they've changed their program? John Thomas Very interesting,the last one I bought was probably back in Feb or March this year.That would be GREAT if they now supply unmarked.Not even on the left side JT? |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 12:16:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Correct... not marked on left or right side. Completely blank.
John Thomas |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 12:29:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Ah, perfect!
I was planning on ordering one from TM next week. I might just make it 2 or 3 in case they start marking them again. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 12:38:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Ah, perfect! I was planning on ordering one from TM next week. I might just make it 2 or 3 in case they start marking them again. Their website shows them as in stock http://www.tacticalmachining.com/category.php?cid=22 Now, get to work!
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Posted: 7/17/2010 12:53:54 PM EDT
[#30]
looks like TM have changed their 80% lowers as of July 2nd, apparently they no longer do the selector hole or the markings
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/ 
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Posted: 7/17/2010 2:19:17 PM EDT
[#31]
I think I'll take a gamble and buy one. If they're unmarked then great, if they turn out marked, then it's still not a huge loss.
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Posted: 7/17/2010 2:33:51 PM EDT
[#32]
The retro market is not big enough, it's a small niche in the overall AR scene.
And the previous comments were correct; most companies would not have the finer details done correctly to please you guys. |
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Posted: 7/17/2010 3:23:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
The retro market is not big enough, it's a small niche in the overall AR scene. And the previous comments were correct; most companies would not have the finer details done correctly to please you guys. We're glad that you do though Mike. Oh, I'll be ordering another lower next week I think.
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Posted: 7/19/2010 2:54:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Okay guys, Armalite responded to the thread I started in their Industry Forum. So if you are interested, even remotely, go head over there & tell 'em what you would want.
Here's what he posted: Originally Posted By ArmaLite: Talked to the Colonel and he suggested to me that I find out how many would be interested in this type of project and what would you like to see us do. No guarantees here but MW is interested in a retro project if it's feasible and will sell. Let's hear your suggestions. TR |
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Posted: 7/19/2010 4:37:12 PM EDT
[#35]
All I want is a run of some m@#$%^ f*&^ing 1/12 or 1/9 chrome lined A1 profile barrels, some new A1 hand guards, and some CS stocks...
NDS has done the rest and I'll build the damn rifle myself so I know it's done the right way. |
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Posted: 7/19/2010 5:18:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: The retro market is not big enough, it's a small niche in the overall AR scene. And the previous comments were correct; most companies would not have the finer details done correctly to please you guys. I hope I didn't stir things up for you guys in a bad way. It popped into my head the other day & sounded like a good idea, so I threw it out there. The whole reason I thought of Armalite was because of the name being associated with the early development of the AR-15/M-16 platform & the fact that I seriously doubt that Colt would lift a finger for something like this. And yeah, that finer details do concern me, but I can't help but think that a correctly done retro AR would sell......I wish I had access to sales figures of the Century C-15A1, because that would give some insight to how well this type of rifle is selling with the general public. |
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Posted: 7/20/2010 4:09:09 AM EDT
[#37]
I posted over there to say NDS would be willing to provide 601 lower forgings for a Pegasus logo lower.
Now If you guys want it, go tell Armalite. 
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Posted: 7/20/2010 5:04:35 AM EDT
[#38]
maybe we should see if they are up to the task of making a mil spec 2 pos tube and alloy stock body
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Posted: 7/20/2010 5:47:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
I posted over there to say NDS would be willing to provide 601 lower forgings for a Pegasus logo lower.
Now If you guys want it, go tell Armalite. I gain a little respect for NDS every time I see one of these guys post something here. NDS seems to be amazing at working towards making things their customer base wants. I have yet to order anything from NDS, but I fully intend to make an NDS my next purchase. On topic, I could see a special run of Armalite marked M16A1 clones selling well. Even though they didn't make the M16A1 I can still see people buying them for nostalgia. They would need to at least have the correct upper, lower, barrel, and furniture. Small parts most people would never even notice the difference. I can fully see Armalite totally messing it up though, an A2 lower, a C7 upper, the wrong furniture. I see the furniture as being hardest to get, since I doubt a company would be buying surplus to make something like this. I would be happy to see someone start producing correct A1 profile barrels, 1/7 1/9 1/12 doesn't matter much to me, just the correct outer profile. |
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Posted: 7/20/2010 7:04:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I posted over there to say NDS would be willing to provide 601 lower forgings for a Pegasus logo lower.
Now If you guys want it, go tell Armalite. I gain a little respect for NDS every time I see one of these guys post something here. NDS seems to be amazing at working towards making things their customer base wants. I have yet to order anything from NDS, but I fully intend to make an NDS my next purchase. On topic, I could see a special run of Armalite marked M16A1 clones selling well. Even though they didn't make the M16A1 I can still see people buying them for nostalgia. They would need to at least have the correct upper, lower, barrel, and furniture. Small parts most people would never even notice the difference. I can fully see Armalite totally messing it up though, an A2 lower, a C7 upper, the wrong furniture. I see the furniture as being hardest to get, since I doubt a company would be buying surplus to make something like this. I would be happy to see someone start producing correct A1 profile barrels, 1/7 1/9 1/12 doesn't matter much to me, just the correct outer profile. You would hope that Armalite would work a deal with NDS to use their early type uppers and work with NDS to make a production run of retro rifles rather than screwing it up. Frankly I don't care. I like NDS stuff just fine the way it is, although a Pegasus marked, carry-handle early 'prototype' model in the box from Armalite would be a sure seller I would think, especially if they did things like replicate the furniture half-way decently (carbon fiber? ) and make a FSB closer to the original. I could live with the buffer assy being standard, as well as other internals, such as a chrome-lined barrel. I'm sure they'd be pretty proud of them if you know what I mean. I like the AR180B for example, but a plastic lower? I mean, what, the original, stamped lower was too expensive to make? The weapons would hold their value better if they'd stayed closer to the original design specs IMO. Same for their 'Sudanese' AR-10. Great idea, not so great in execution. Someday I would really like to buy an Armalite AR10 - too bad they can't still use Pegasus. Guess I can live with a Lion though. Come to think of it, they probably couldn't build them using the original winged horse logo because of legal matters. 
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Posted: 7/20/2010 7:11:25 AM EDT
[#41]
I would think they could make a deal with Sir Plus,Red Barn Guns and others who have NOS or near new looking furniture rather then making new production
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Posted: 7/20/2010 8:13:13 AM EDT
[#42]
OK, IF ArmaLite makes an AR using an NDS-601 forging, and an NDS-32 upper, then I might buy one.
The internals and furniture wouldn't matter much to me as I'd probably change it anyways. Gray or Black would be fine with me. I was thinking about Kona Brown furniture, then someones name popped into my head...John Thomas. Yep, I think I'd be throwing some more work his way. .....TexSquirrel is daydreaming now.... |
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Posted: 7/20/2010 8:33:04 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
I would think they could make a deal with Sir Plus,Red Barn Guns and others who have NOS or near new looking furniture rather then making new production Well, I was talking about a prototype build...setting my sights too high? I need more sleep. |
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