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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/29/2005 1:46:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 8:56:23 AM EDT by DevL]
What good is a carbine barrel that is longer than 11.5" for use in the US?

Just wanted to see what ideas you guys can come up with.

For hunting you want the extra velocity and range... you get a 20" or greater rifle not a carbine right?

For self defense there are no reported cases of self defense outside the fragmentation range of an 11.5" barrel by a civilian since the AR/M16 has existed that I am aware of ever in the US. Can someone come up with an example ever in history where this is not the case?

For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?

What say you?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:53:15 PM EDT
Um, what exactly is your question? If it's over 16", it's not considered a carbine, it's a rifle. You already stated the purposes of a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:57:03 PM EDT
Do have a defining characteristic besides barrel length that makes a firearm a carbine?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



Yes, but I can't remember what ones they were. If you are interested, I can dig, the one in particular I'm thinking of was an officer down south being shot at by a guy in house while the cruiser was in the roadway (LEO was outside the car).
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:58:17 PM EDT
I think what he is asking is if there are any scenarios where LE or civilians [non military] have needed anything more than 16" in barrel.

I think...
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:00:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By DevL:

For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



Yes, but I can't remember what ones they were. If you are interested, I can dig, the one in particular I'm thinking of was an officer down south being shot at by a guy in house while the cruiser was in the roadway (LEO was outside the car).



I'd like to hear that story if you dont mind finding it stickman.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:01:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:06:12 PM EDT by MuRDoC]
Dev, my colt 20" is ideal for me because I can use it for in the house, the woods, the plains. I think we've already talked about this. I do like your carbine but I just like my 20 better along with the added velocity. I still want to see the spec on the rounds you shoot out of your Ar.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:05:13 PM EDT
I really love shooting my 24". But it's not a carbine. If I want to shoot a carbine I will shoot my 16".
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:12:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:17:03 PM EDT by topgunpilot20]
Well if you're asking about a defensive carbine, then I agree, a 16" or less is ideal. By defensive/all-purpose rifle is a 14.5" with perm. attached phantom. My 20" is a CMP build.

ETA: I believe a 11.5" SBR is the ideal home defense rifle. But if I could only have one, i'd want a 14.5" or 16"--you never know, society collapse, zombies, etc.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:19:44 PM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:18:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
For self defense there are no reported cases of self defense outside the fragmentation range of an 11.5" barrel by a civilian since the AR/M16 has existed that I am aware of ever in the US.



That's one of the reasons I have a 11.5" Colt_SBR.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 4:43:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 4:44:59 PM EDT by ops144]
i have an armalite m15a2cb 16in with midlength gas sys and as far as handyness
goes i love it.... i dont think i could hit any better with a 20in w/o glass with my eyes..

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:00:09 PM EDT
The SRO at Columbine HS attempted without success to hit Harris and Klebold at 75 yards with his sidearm, without success.

Of course, I consider the range of a shorty to be 300 meters plus, even if the projectiles aren't fragmenting. If it were not for the NFA, I think a 10.5 or 11.5 would be ideal for civilians.

Longest reported self defense shooting in US history was estimated at 1500 yards--a single shot kill by a fellow named Billy Dixon, who was shooting at Natives with a buffalo gun. I don't know if this incident matters in the grand scheme of things, however.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:36:49 PM EDT
I think you'd have to go with a bullpup to get a longer than 16" bbl and still have a carbine.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 5:40:44 PM EDT
Bayonet combat.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 2:33:50 AM EDT
Since I mostly collect milsurps, to me a regulat AR isa carbine. Compared to a Garand, Mauser, '03 Springfield, it is nice compact package even in its "rifle" configuration.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:56:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 4:57:39 AM EDT by DevL]
Wow it was late and I botched my post. I was supposed to be longer than 11.5" or why would someone NEED a 16" barreled carbine or longer? Assuming no SBR laws of course. I have shot everything from 20" Crane SPR 18", 16" 14.5" etc. and cant think of why I would need a barrel longer than 11.5" for self defense or LEO use. The only reason I can begin to wrap my brain around is the noise of SBR weapons but the Krink flash hider starts to make that less of an issue too.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:01:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
Dev, my colt 20" is ideal for me because I can use it for in the house, the woods, the plains. I think we've already talked about this. I do like your carbine but I just like my 20 better along with the added velocity. I still want to see the spec on the rounds you shoot out of your Ar.



I use 75 grain Hornady OTM bullets. Black Hills or TAP. My point is has there been a self defense shooting at long range by a civilian since the AR has existed? Meaning not against Indians over a hundred years ago in the old west, the Alamo, etc.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:32:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:38:30 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:49:10 AM EDT
But would you not want a 7.62 for long range defensive precision work? In my experience 5.56 gets tossed around by the wind so much its practical accuracy is much less than 7.62 and the 5.56 at long range is severly lacking in the terminal ballistics department in comparison as well. Would a short AR10 not make more sense in that role?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 11:38:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 11:40:45 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By DevL:
My point is has there been a self defense shooting at long range by a civilian since the AR has existed? Meaning not against Indians over a hundred years ago in the old west, the Alamo, etc.



Hey, I knew the Adobe Walls incident was irrelevant before I posted it, but ask for an anecdote, and ye shall receive

ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:04:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DevL:
My point is has there been a self defense shooting at long range by a civilian since the AR has existed? Meaning not against Indians over a hundred years ago in the old west, the Alamo, etc.



Hey, I knew the Adobe Walls incident was irrelevant before I posted it, but ask for an anecdote, and ye shall receive

ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt.



Standard A2 sights on an M16/AR15 could do 400 Meter man target easily... The Marines train that way every day.

No Expert
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:28:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 4:43:59 PM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:01:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DevL:
My point is has there been a self defense shooting at long range by a civilian since the AR has existed? Meaning not against Indians over a hundred years ago in the old west, the Alamo, etc.



Hey, I knew the Adobe Walls incident was irrelevant before I posted it, but ask for an anecdote, and ye shall receive

ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt.



Standard A2 sights on an M16/AR15 could do 400 Meter man target easily... The Marines train that way every day.

No Expert



Sure, known distance, on a full sized target. I have seen Marines shoot their service weapons on UKD targets of approx. 400m, and they didn't do as well as shooters with optics. Shooting at Camp Perry, Parris Island and MCRD San Diego is no comparison to UKD shooting under serious time stress.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 7:37:01 PM EDT by boltcatch]

For self defense there are no reported cases of self defense outside the fragmentation range of an 11.5" barrel by a civilian since the AR/M16 has existed that I am aware of ever in the US. Can someone come up with an example ever in history where this is not the case?

For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



Self defense? LEO? What the hell are you talking about? My Glock is for self defense. My 20" A2 is for war. Note that we also haven't been invaded, hence the lack of long shots.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 7:54:18 PM EDT
I can think of bunches reasons to have more than 16" barrels, 16+" barrels that sling 7.62mm
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:26:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



In Edmond, OK about 3-4 years ago, a guy with a history of mental illness and who was off of his meds twisted off, and began a shooting rampage. He walked down the street with an M1 garand, shooting and killing several people who were doing yardwork in a residential area.

A patrol officer responded (a former member of thier tac team), and was first on scene. He located the suspect quickly (BG was walking down the middle of the road with the rifle still firing at people at random), and hopped out of his patrol car. He only had his Glock 21, and he fired 2 rounds at the active shooter at a range of 75 yards. One round missed, the other dropped the bad guy with a hit to the pelvis.

The bad guy was still alive and trying to clear a malfunction with his rifle when another officer (a SWAT sniper armed w/ an AR-15 carbine) arrived and stuck a .223 winchester ballistic silvertip behind his ear at about 40 yards. This was all captured on video of the first officer's dash cam.

Great shooting and great teamwork on the part of both guys.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:56:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 9:02:54 PM EDT by tangeant]
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt.[/quote]

I could easily make a 400 yd shot. 10 clicks up 2 left

Whitman wasn't doing much shooting after people showed up with scoped hunting rifles and put up some suppressive fire forcing him to keep his head down till the guy climbed up the tower and blasted him with a shotgun

it would actually be harder with a dot at 400 because it would obscure the target and most people probably wouldn't have a 400 zero for a DOT scope.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 11:05:10 PM EDT
Tangeant, I am talking about a partly obscured target, not a full sized one. Sitting in a dark hole, making it impossible to distinguish the target from his background while using iron sights. Also, its UKD, so sight adjustments aren't dead on. My dot covers 16 inches at that distance (less than a front sight post) and I would set it on top of his shoulders to account for distance.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:42:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:

For self defense there are no reported cases of self defense outside the fragmentation range of an 11.5" barrel by a civilian since the AR/M16 has existed that I am aware of ever in the US. Can someone come up with an example ever in history where this is not the case?

For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



Self defense? LEO? What the hell are you talking about? My Glock is for self defense. My 20" A2 is for war. Note that we also haven't been invaded, hence the lack of long shots.



Well the discussion is about reality. Thinking a country will invade the US and you may use a 20" AR to fight with is a bit silly. If you are talking about our won govt you would be mowed down quikly if you did anything more than use a bolt gun in a sniper type role. Noone will be doing any "war" in the US in my lifetime so its not a concern. LEO use is a reality for me and so is self defense. That is why I have ARs and why I asked someone to give me some cases of long range LEO shootings.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:45:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPDSNYPR:

Originally Posted By DevL:
For LEO is there a case of a shooting with a non sniper rifle outside 50 yards? Ever?



In Edmond, OK about 3-4 years ago, a guy with a history of mental illness and who was off of his meds twisted off, and began a shooting rampage. He walked down the street with an M1 garand, shooting and killing several people who were doing yardwork in a residential area.

A patrol officer responded (a former member of thier tac team), and was first on scene. He located the suspect quickly (BG was walking down the middle of the road with the rifle still firing at people at random), and hopped out of his patrol car. He only had his Glock 21, and he fired 2 rounds at the active shooter at a range of 75 yards. One round missed, the other dropped the bad guy with a hit to the pelvis.

The bad guy was still alive and trying to clear a malfunction with his rifle when another officer (a SWAT sniper armed w/ an AR-15 carbine) arrived and stuck a .223 winchester ballistic silvertip behind his ear at about 40 yards. This was all captured on video of the first officer's dash cam.

Great shooting and great teamwork on the part of both guys.



Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. Can anyone find an LEO engagement over 75 yards for a non sniper?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:29:20 AM EDT
You might also read through the Blackwater newsletter. I think one of their guys (as a private citizen carrying) engaged a mugger from about 85yds with a pistol (IIRC he didn't realize it was that far with the adrenaline dump; but made the shot anyway)
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:55:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 9:06:55 AM EDT by DevL]
How do you get mugged at 85 yards?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 10:22:25 AM EDT by mongo001]
It's an easy question to ask when you live in a state that allows them or belong to an LEO organization that allows the use of them.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:33:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
How do you get mugged at 85 yards?



Maybe th shooter wasn't the one getting mugged.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:28:01 PM EDT
Its easy to mistake a joke, prank, acting of a scene or misinterpret something as a mugging at 85 yards. I think that makes more of a case for magnifeid optics and a precision shot to the head than the need for a longer barrel. Interesting though... too bad there is no way to cooberate it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:14:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Tangeant, I am talking about a partly obscured target, not a full sized one. Sitting in a dark hole, making it impossible to distinguish the target from his background while using iron sights. Also, its UKD, so sight adjustments aren't dead on. My dot covers 16 inches at that distance (less than a front sight post) and I would set it on top of his shoulders to account for distance.



How would you see his shoulders !
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 9:49:45 PM EDT by MuRDoC]
I want the added velocity, and the storage in the buttstock my 20"a2 is perfect for what I want
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:37:28 PM EDT
DevL,

thanks for this question. I asked the same thing on another forum awhile back and was told lots of reasons why 16"+ was just as good.

IMHO, a shorter barrel just handles better inside the house. I can get through doorways with my non-NFA M4 (14.5+phantom) pretty well, BUT I can get through them more easily with my 11.5" SBR.

They both have the same sight radius (irrelevant if you have some sort of optic), and velocity is more than adequate at the ranges I'd be engaging someone at -- inside my home, or in my yard.

The only semi-legit argument against using an SBR for self-defense is the civil liability concern.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:44:11 PM EDT
Well..wouldn't a TAP from 14.5" or 16" carbine fragment more "dramatically" at same range?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:11:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MaverickMkii:
Well..wouldn't a TAP from 14.5" or 16" carbine fragment more "dramatically" at same range?



Yes, but I believe that the handiness is worth it.

BTW, I am not saying that the 10.5 or 11.5 is some wonderweapon that shoots long distances as well as bigger guns. If an SPR still hits hard enough at 700m, then a 10.5 with the same ammo ought to work fine at 350m.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:18:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 1:20:18 AM EDT by Cato]
If an autority on the use of carbines in combat like Larry Vickers
tells me that no other 10.5" upper than the HK416 is reliable enough
for serious use (look here), then I listen...
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 3:22:57 AM EDT
Hey Devl,

here's another example of law enforcement engaging a target at 70 yards. It occurred at Fairchild Air Force Base:


"Survivors Remember Fairchild Shooting Anniversary

Survivors are remembering the 10-year anniversary of a shooting spree that killed four people and injured nearly two dozen at Fairchild Air Force Base.
A memorial service held on Friday paid respects to the shooting victims.

The gunman, former airman Dean Melberg, sought revenge against the doctors who recommended his discharge from the Air Force for mental health problems. Dean Melburg was eventually killed from 70 yards away, a distance unheard of for a handgun.

Fairchild doctors say the setup for the base's mental health center is much different than it was 10 years ago."

The MP that took the shot was using his M-9 Beretta and had braced it on a nearby bicycle to make the shot. (This is what I heard at a Firearms Instructor Course anyway).

Here's the direct link to see it yourself.

http://www.kxly.com/common/printStory.asp?id=37382

This is the longest engagement I have heard of with a pistol.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:36:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cato:
If an autority on the use of carbines in combat like Larry Vickers
tells me that no other 10.5" upper than the HK416 is reliable enough
for serious use (look here), then I listen...



Larry Vickers has probably not used a LW piston system which, to me, seems superior to the HK system. I am also doing a 11.5" barreled upper not 10.5" to maximize the usefull range of the rifle. I am left wondering what I would use a 14.5" 16" or longer barrel or upper for at this point, thus my question. I believe pretty strongly I should move on to an AR10 if I want longer range use with a non NFA barrel length.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 9:49:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 9:55:45 AM EDT by Variablebinary]
Ideally I'd use an 11.5" for defense, but NFA laws are a pain, so I'm content to use 16".

Not to mention it's cool to have a Neil Mccauley gun
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