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Posted: 2/7/2010 1:06:22 PM EDT
Do I need to have one pistol lower for every upper?
Link Posted: 2/7/2010 1:14:27 PM EDT
There is no such thing as a "pistol upper".  An upper is not a controlled item.  Do you have any AR rifles that do NOT have uppers attached to them in the same location (your house for example)?  If yes, then "constructive intent" could be assumed by the BATFE.
Link Posted: 2/7/2010 1:15:40 PM EDT
Any "regular" AR15 uppers need to EACH have one 16" (min.) upper for them.  You can then have as many short uppers as possible.
Link Posted: 2/7/2010 5:33:34 PM EDT
Ok....Yes I have to current non NFA AR carbines in my house. My idea is that I would like to bulid a .223 AR pistol but have a second .22lr upper for it too.
Link Posted: 2/8/2010 10:29:34 AM EDT
Well you will need two 16" uppers.
Link Posted: 2/8/2010 1:02:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
Well you will need two 16" uppers.


I do, I have two complete carbines...uppers and lowers.
Link Posted: 2/8/2010 1:39:21 PM EDT
Then buy as many short uppers as you want.  
Link Posted: 2/13/2010 4:42:59 PM EDT
Lets fan this flame a bit.  Do you need to have 16" uppers in the house for every stripped lower?
Link Posted: 2/13/2010 4:52:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZbornacSVT:
Lets fan this flame a bit.  Do you need to have 16" uppers in the house for every stripped lower?


Why would you? A stripped lower is just that, a stripped lower. It's not a rifle, not a pistol. It's isn't either until you assemble it either with a stock (it's a rifle then and evermore) or with a pistol buffer tube and properly registered (pistol).

If you have a stripped lower that is intended for a pistol build, do yourself a favor and register it as a pistol with your local authorities. Then you can have any size upper you want in your house and not have to worry about it.
Link Posted: 2/14/2010 8:32:40 AM EDT
I was just thinking of asking the same ? since I have a couple of 16 in. AR's in my house would I be able to have 2 Short barreled uppers for one pistol lower. question answerd thanks.
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 11:49:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
Well you will need two 16" uppers.


No - you're Loonytunes.  

"constructive intent" could only be applied if you possess ONLY ONE AR LOWER which was transferred as a rifle AND you also
possess a short barreled upper.


If you have one complete AR rifle you may ALSO own any combination of pistol lowers and uppers.  
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 1:57:06 PM EDT
So if I only have 1 complete AR rifle, and own a pistol upper while waiting for my pistol lower to ship/transfer, would that be constructive possession?
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 2:43:40 PM EDT
YES.  You need a legal lower for that short upper.  Keep it at a friend or family member's house.
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 2:57:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/19/2010 3:20:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZbornacSVT:
Lets fan this flame a bit.  Do you need to have 16" uppers in the house for every stripped lower?


Only if you are fucking an ATF agent's daughter or wife, and he disapproves.  People worry about the silliest shit and then drive drunk with a pound of weed in their pocket................
Link Posted: 2/20/2010 8:25:11 AM EDT
Excellent comment




Or what if you have an intruder and a shooting?  Yeah, keep it in the law so there are no problems.  Jesus...
Link Posted: 2/20/2010 7:56:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
Excellent comment

Or what if you have an intruder and a shooting?  Yeah, keep it in the law so there are no problems.  Jesus...


Actually thats whats being discussed here.  The LAW only states that you can't have an SBR without proper paperwork.   What most everyone here seems to be worried about is wether big brother will in his infinite wisdom decide that you intend on breaking the law, even though you haven't.
Link Posted: 2/21/2010 7:42:54 AM EDT
What?  You ARE breaking the law if you have an SBR lower, three uppers and also other lowers without having a legal upper for each of the lowers.  That's the law.  Read up.  
Link Posted: 2/21/2010 11:32:02 AM EDT
So if I own an AR pistol and an extra upper, I can't start another AR build or stock up on stripped lowers if I find a good deal?   I say B.S.   I don't need the thought police telling me I might be thinking about doing something wrong when I know for a fact I'm not.  I don't need a nanny, and way too many people put up with this kind of thinking.  If someone breaks the law, nail them-otherwise leave law abiding citizens alone.   As far as the SBR thing goes I don't have one, I would like to get one in the future, so I haven't read up on all the ins and outs of owning one.  What I was refering to was the OP question of being accused of trying to have one if he had extra uppers for his pistol.   People need to follow the law, but we need to stop making up extra laws that don't exist.
Link Posted: 2/22/2010 7:24:10 AM EDT
Go for it J DOG but it's called constructive intent and you'd be guilty of it.  There's nothing for them to prove- you've proven it for them.  That's how constructive intent works.



Be ignorant all you want but don't complain if/when it bites you in the ass.




You certainly shouldn't be giving advice here.  You are WRONG.
Link Posted: 2/22/2010 7:39:16 PM EDT
If that is the case then you could also be in trouble for having an extra buttstock in your pile of ar parts, if you own a pistol.  Or owning a pistol and having a VFG on the bench could mean you have an AOW.   Almost anyone could be found guilty of something if Constructive Intent was used by combining items you have laying around the house.   Soccer moms all around the country could become convicted meth-heads.  Look up the legal definition of constructive intent.   The only LAWS I have found that pertain to owning parts not assembled is dealing with full auto, dealing with sbrs its not illegal unless its put together.     If you can post the law up here dealing with that then please do, I would be happy to say I'm wrong and a bit wiser.     Funny thing is I won't ever have to worry, because as cheap as lowers are I will have one for every pistol upper I build.  Right now I'm just getting started on building my first pistol.
Link Posted: 2/22/2010 7:43:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
Go for it J DOG but it's called constructive intent and you'd be guilty of it.   There's nothing for them to prove- you've proven it for them.  That's how constructive intent works.

Be ignorant all you want but don't complain if/when it bites you in the ass.

You certainly shouldn't be giving advice here.  You are WRONG.


I would only be guilty of it if I was planning on skirting the law to own an SBR.   As in my intent was to put the two parts together to make something illegal,  which would not be the case.  And yes they would have to prove it, your still innocent until proven guilty.
Link Posted: 2/23/2010 3:02:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2010 3:02:43 AM EDT by BURN]
Originally Posted By JDogg1000:
Originally Posted By Mand76:
Go for it J DOG but it's called constructive intent and you'd be guilty of it.   There's nothing for them to prove- you've proven it for them.  That's how constructive intent works.

Be ignorant all you want but don't complain if/when it bites you in the ass.

You certainly shouldn't be giving advice here.  You are WRONG.


I would only be guilty of it if I was planning on skirting the law to own an SBR.   As in my intent was to put the two parts together to make something illegal,  which would not be the case.  And yes they would have to prove it, your still innocent until proven guilty.


you are foolinf yourself JD if you think that it is that simple....

too many people in the past have been busted for stupid crap...

and it is very easy to follow this silly rulling/practice(notice I did not say LAW)
Link Posted: 2/23/2010 9:07:25 AM EDT
JDogg- why don't you just STFU?  You are WRONG and just because you hate the ATF or the laws doesn't mean you can do what you want.



This thread is about answering someone's question on legalities.  Don't clutter it up with your absentmindedness.




It's not called INTENT.




It's called CONSTRUCTIVE INTENT.  




The difference being "intent" is what you think you want to do.  "Constructive Intent" means "what you COULD do with what you have".




How is this so fucking hard to understand?  If you have a short upper and a lower that is not an SBR with no legal configuration for it, i.e. a 16" upper, then you have CONSTRUCTIVE INTENT.




There's nothing to prove at that point.  Your testimony in a court of law on what you "intended" to do doesn't matter.  It's not about your intentions, it's about what you could have constructed.




Stupid people, stupid games, stupid prizes.  
Link Posted: 2/23/2010 7:36:16 PM EDT
I wish you would stop with the hyperbole.  Once again I will ask you to please post the particular law, case or precident you are referring to.   It would be helpful for everyone.
Link Posted: 2/23/2010 8:12:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2010 8:14:29 PM EDT by lifeofahero]
Here's a link to what constructive possesion means.

While that was about a stock and vfg to make an illegal sbr, it shows what constructive possession means.

Edited...
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 1:46:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lifeofahero:
Here's a link to what constructive possesion means.

While that was about a stock and vfg to make an illegal sbr, it shows what constructive possession means.

Edited...


Yeah, If you look into that case it was completely dropped after 3 weeks.   Also he was never accused of breaking Federal law, only the Florida statutes.
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 5:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2010 5:33:34 PM EDT by Chris19delta]
so basically the AFT gets to dig through your parts box and assemble as many illegal items as they can? Like pistol AR + extra VFG in your parts box = unregistered aow etc?
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 6:18:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2010 4:33:44 PM EDT by -JC-]
REMOVED USELESS BANTER. -JC-


Link Posted: 2/24/2010 6:39:05 PM EDT
Just another way to make criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens.
Link Posted: 2/24/2010 6:50:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2010 4:34:24 PM EDT by -JC-]
IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO CALL OUT A MEMBER, DO IT IN THE PITT. -JC-

*EDITED*

Link Posted: 2/24/2010 7:44:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 3:28:37 AM EDT
oh oh gosh, this is one of those things that i think rolls around our head and we wonder about, we know the real answer but we wants someone to tell us something else

the real answer being, there is nothing to worry about, unless you take your rifle lower, strap on a upper under 16 inches long, then take it to the range, and the ATF or a firearms law savy police officer, or a much too inquisitive annoying person questions you about what your shooting and its legalities, and these are a LOT of if's, then you could be charged (it would be thrown out, rapists and murderers are let loose, as much as the ATF may hate you, chances are you wouldnt even get probation)

now aside from those if's. besides shooting an intruder with your illegal saber (and not quickly throwing the legal upper on before the police arrive) or the police raiding your house for some other reason, in which your probably guilty of something already, then basically,., DONT WORRY ABOUT IT

constructive intent is one of those.. far out things they rarely use or get anyone one because you have to prove too much, they would have to prove to a jury you had intent, a jury of people, 12 smucks have to be convinced that you had intent on making your evil black assault death launcher, into a slightly shorter DEADLIER version thereof, and capable of destroying all life on earth...from what i've learned about the court system..well your chances are 50/50  it really comes down to which lawyer shows is the most captivating and has shiny things

lets just  come out of this remembering these 3 little words i think we'll all be better people, most laws begin with "knowingly and intentionally"

and thats what the prosecution must prove
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 6:05:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 7:18:06 AM EDT
Thanks VA.  What Vx doesn't realize is it's not that they have to prove INTENT and therefore the jury has to believe you knowingly and intentionally blah blah blah.



They have to prove CONSTRUCTIVE INTENT and actually, you've done that for them.  People are not reading that CONSTRUCTIVE INTENT is different than INTENT.  CI has nothing to do with you- it has only to do with what you COULD build.  If you COULD build it illegally then you are guilty.  




It's just like statutory rape- you didn't KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY RAPE A MINOR but you did break the law which would be that underage is underage.  It doesn't matter if you knew the law or not or if you were a gentle "lovemaker".  All that has to be proven is that she was underage and you had sex.  Case closed.




This is a dangerous area, yes, one you may never get in trouble for but the OP asked about law, not everyone's opinion on how or when you should truly have to worry about it.




People come here for FACTS and sometimes ask for just that.  It's careless for anyone to flood a thread with their OPINION that will eventually cause doubt.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 8:56:19 AM EDT
Now i am going to admit i am a little slow but is this only referring to short barrels for pistols..? Can I own 2 upper recievers and one lower..? Also is it legal to own two uppers of 2 different calibers? I am admittedly a noob so i figured id ask. by the way the letter from the atf read thats what it seems like.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 9:31:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 11:54:07 AM EDT by FIGJAM]
Yes, you can own two uppers and one receiver as long as those two uppers will each complete a legal gun (from a purely technical perspective).  

For the record, there is no such thing as "constructive intent".  "Constructive possession" however is quite real and one should pay attention to avoid it.

This is how it works.  Assuming you get to the point where you're being examined, law enforcement will build guns from all your lego parts.  They build legal ones first and then they keep on building.  If at the end, there are an illegal ones, then you may have constructive possession problems.  It's pretty simple from that perspective.  Oh there are all kinds of scenarios but if one stays within that basic construct, one has little to worry about.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 9:32:09 AM EDT
You can own as many short uppers as you want per ONE SBR or PISTOL lower.  If you have other non-pistol or non-SBR lowers, you have to have a legal configuration for EACH of them as in a 16" upper for each in order to not be guilty of CI.



That's as simple as I can word it.




Originally Posted By ElPresidenteAnRK:


Now i am going to admit i am a little slow but is this only referring to short barrels for pistols..? Can I own 2 upper recievers and one lower..? Also is it legal to own two uppers of 2 different calibers? I am admittedly a noob so i figured id ask. by the way the letter from the atf read thats what it seems like.






 
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 4:05:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 4:06:03 PM EDT by enzyme5]
I love "Constructive Intent" because this means over 87% of all households in America can be convicted of being a terrorist simply by owning various household cleaners that can be combined to make a WMD. I think lower / upper combos are the least of your worries.
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 4:13:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 4:15:04 PM EDT by enzyme5]
Oh speaking of not posting pics here of your builds and its relation to "Constuctive Intent" I introduce you to the Poster Child of Dumb moves!
See the first pic within this post.
I guess by simply covering a regular Carb Buffer with $2 Pipe Foam says to the ATF...Hey I've got a "Pistol" Buffer tube Mr. ATF Agent!
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 4:39:36 PM EDT
There are no CI laws for pipe bombs but there ARE CI laws for SBRs.



Thanks for the useless post.  







Originally Posted By enzyme5:


I love "Constructive Intent" because this means over 87% of all households in America can be convicted of being a terrorist simply by owning various household cleaners that can be combined to make a WMD. I think lower / upper combos are the least of your worries.






 
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 4:41:07 PM EDT
RIF.  Read a little bit.  That pic is NOT of the poster's rifle/pistol/whatever.  It's obviously someone else's as he's asking about the muzzle device.



And yes, that's CI since a stock can be slid right over the carbine extension.







Originally Posted By enzyme5:


Oh speaking of not posting pics here of your builds and its relation to "Constuctive Intent" I introduce you to the Poster Child of Dumb moves!

See the first pic within this post.

I guess by simply covering a regular Carb Buffer with $2 Pipe Foam says to the ATF...Hey I've got a "Pistol" Buffer tube Mr. ATF Agent!






 
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 4:54:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 4:55:13 PM EDT by lifeofahero]
Did you ever stop to think that the foam is covering a permanently modified carbine extension?!?  Or that he might not even own another stock to fit on that extension?!?  Seriously people, take the tinfoil hats off...

ETA:  This post needs a couple:
Link Posted: 2/25/2010 5:30:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
RIF.  Read a little bit.  That pic is NOT of the poster's rifle/pistol/whatever.  It's obviously someone else's as he's asking about the muzzle device.

And yes, that's CI since a stock can be slid right over the carbine extension.


Originally Posted By enzyme5:
Oh speaking of not posting pics here of your builds and its relation to "Constuctive Intent" I introduce you to the Poster Child of Dumb moves!
See the first pic within this post.
I guess by simply covering a regular Carb Buffer with $2 Pipe Foam says to the ATF...Hey I've got a "Pistol" Buffer tube Mr. ATF Agent!


 


If he took a milling machine and milled out the notches or filled it with weld and milled it flat he would be legal. That said I saw an IDIOT on youtube with a pistol and he was clearly using the buffer tube as a stock.

Link Posted: 2/25/2010 6:43:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2010 4:35:09 PM EDT by -JC-]
REMOVED USELESS BANTER. -JC-

Link Posted: 2/25/2010 9:02:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jailer:
Originally Posted By ZbornacSVT:
Lets fan this flame a bit.  Do you need to have 16" uppers in the house for every stripped lower?


Why would you? A stripped lower is just that, a stripped lower. It's not a rifle, not a pistol. It's isn't either until you assemble it either with a stock (it's a rifle then and evermore) or with a pistol buffer tube and properly registered (pistol).

If you have a stripped lower that is intended for a pistol build, do yourself a favor and register it as a pistol with your local authorities. Then you can have any size upper you want in your house and not have to worry about it.


This only works if you live in a state that requires registration..... Mine doesn't, Nor do many others.
Link Posted: 2/26/2010 1:03:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
RIF.  Read a little bit.  That pic is NOT of the poster's rifle/pistol/whatever.  It's obviously someone else's as he's asking about the muzzle device.

And yes, that's CI since a stock can be slid right over the carbine extension.


Originally Posted By enzyme5:
Oh speaking of not posting pics here of your builds and its relation to "Constuctive Intent" I introduce you to the Poster Child of Dumb moves!
See the first pic within this post.
I guess by simply covering a regular Carb Buffer with $2 Pipe Foam says to the ATF...Hey I've got a "Pistol" Buffer tube Mr. ATF Agent!


 


ATF has already sent letters out stating that you can put a regular CAR buffer on a pistol, just don't put a stock on it.   You can find that info in the pistol information thread right here on AR15.com.

Link Posted: 2/26/2010 1:31:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
There are no CI laws for pipe bombs but there ARE CI laws for SBRs.

Thanks for the useless post.  


Originally Posted By enzyme5:
I love "Constructive Intent" because this means over 87% of all households in America can be convicted of being a terrorist simply by owning various household cleaners that can be combined to make a WMD. I think lower / upper combos are the least of your worries.


 


Yes, CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESION  can be applied to any law, drugs, weapons, etc.   and it has many many times.  You can look it up.   It is. however  normally only used when someone with real criminal intent is stopped before they actually perpatrate a crime.  Constructive Possesion is not a law, it is rather showing that you have the capability of breaking the law.  Here is New Jersey's legal definition  

  The law recognizes that possession may be constructive instead of actual. A person who, with knowledge of its character, knowingly has direct physical control over a thing, at a given time, is in actual possession of it.
Constructive possession means possession in which the person does not physically have the property, but though not physically on one's person, (he/she) is aware of the presence of the property and is able to exercise intentional control or dominion over it.
A person who,although not in actual possession, has knowledge of its character, knowingly has both the power and the intention at a given time to exercise control over a thing, either directlyor through another person or persons, is then in constructive possession if it.



So yes,  if some legal authority wanted to they could take a bunch of random items from your house,  plead their case in court that you were going to use these things to commit a crime and you would have to prove your innocent.  So in some cases the fear of CP just needs to be taken with a grain of salt, other times cover your rear.
Link Posted: 2/26/2010 3:00:52 PM EDT

And your point JDogg?  Nitpicking now to dig yourself out of the deep hole you dug yourself?






Originally Posted By JDogg1000:



Originally Posted By Mand76:






There are no CI laws for pipe bombs but there ARE CI laws for SBRs.



Thanks for the useless post.  







Originally Posted By enzyme5:

I love "Constructive Intent" because this means over 87% of all households in America can be convicted of being a terrorist simply by owning various household cleaners that can be combined to make a WMD. I think lower / upper combos are the least of your worries.




 




Yes, CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESION  can be applied to any law, drugs, weapons, etc.   and it has many many times.  You can look it up.   It is. however  normally only used when someone with real criminal intent is stopped before they actually perpatrate a crime.  Constructive Possesion is not a law, it is rather showing that you have the capability of breaking the law.  Here is New Jersey's legal definition  



  The law recognizes that possession may be constructive instead of actual. A person who, with knowledge of its character, knowingly has direct physical control over a thing, at a given time, is in actual possession of it.

Constructive possession means possession in which the person does not physically have the property, but though not physically on one's person, (he/she) is aware of the presence of the property and is able to exercise intentional control or dominion over it.

A person who,although not in actual possession, has knowledge of its character, knowingly has both the power and the intention at a given time to exercise control over a thing, either directlyor through another person or persons, is then in constructive possession if it.






So yes,  if some legal authority wanted to they could take a bunch of random items from your house,  plead their case in court that you were going to use these things to commit a crime and you would have to prove your innocent.  So in some cases the fear of CP just needs to be taken with a grain of salt, other times cover your rear.






 
Link Posted: 2/26/2010 3:54:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mand76:
[div]And your point JDogg?  Nitpicking now to dig yourself out of the deep hole you dug yourself?




No, I am saying it wasn't a usless post, while not probable it is possible.   And I almost completely agree with enzyme.  Common sense goes out the window and the ATF gets to decide if you have the capability of, could sometime in the future, or have even thought about breaking the law.  Never the less it will always still be left up to the court to decide if you actually have broken the law.

Furthermore, your ridicule, accusations, cursing and other belidgerence towards me is uncalled for.  This is a forum where all members can participate.   If you don't like that then don't participate.  In fact I am sure you have broken multiple rules in your previous posts.  Instead of posting reference or credentials backing up what you said, you just became more belidgerent.   Like that guy that doesn't like  the way a discussion is going so he gets louder and angrier so others will just stop talking.     If you actually read my previous posts I was not giving advice, rather saying what a load of crap the idea of CP is when it comes to  people that have no intentions of breaking the law.  Maybe thats why it seems so crazy to me, because I always choose to do the right thing and stay way inside the law.
Link Posted: 2/26/2010 7:30:27 PM EDT
Oh really?  Why don't you cite all of my CoC violations?  VA-Gunnut came in here to put a stop to your "suggestions".  Maybe he'll put a stop to me too?  
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