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Posted: 11/13/2008 3:15:19 PM EDT
If you have to grab a half a dozen mag for your AR or AK without know what the application or target is in a bugout situation what you it be. If you mix mags please explain why the choices. Right now mine is just federal brown box and prvi m855 in AR and mix of Wolf FMJ and soft points in my AK however I'm sure I can do better. Thinking about TAP or BTHP
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 3:41:38 PM EDT
My mag bag is loaded with 150 rounds of Black Hills 52-grain BTHP and 60 rounds of Federal 62-grain Tactical Bonded. As funds allow, the 52-grain ammo will be replaced with more Federal.
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:17:39 PM EDT
PRVI M193 and M855
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:24:06 PM EDT
5.56:

XM193
Q3131
R-P 55 grain fmj
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:25:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2008 4:27:34 PM EDT by zack991]
I only buy real LC M193 and M855 rounds. There are a few reloading company's that uses the the M193 casing to make their rounds with, but does not mean it is the same or equal quality. I have shot thousands of reloads from these company's for practice, but when shit hits the fan i want the real stuff.
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:31:12 PM EDT
Wait a minute, I thought the Prvi didn't fragment?
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:45:33 PM EDT
My own 75gr BTHP handloads.
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 4:50:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2008 4:54:43 PM EDT by kevinb120]
I actually have 3 mags worth of Federal 55g TMU too, those are my 'true' first go-to mags for self defense. Haven't ever had an issue with PRVI, hell, never had a single burp with Centurion either. One of these days I'll find something that has an issue. I really have no worries that any mag of any ammo I have won't fire. As for ballistics, I have full confidence that 30 rounds of any of it will do the trick. Not sure what the thought process is that one would fire one single shot and wait and observe what happens before firing the second.

I would think that in a true defense situation, I would probably put 4-6 rounds into someone before they hit the ground, and if they don't lay flat, maybe another 11-15 or so should do the trick, even with Silver Bear.. If they're really stubborn I'll go for 60 rounds.
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 5:01:35 PM EDT
5.56 XM-193
7.62 NATO XM-80
7.62x39 Mil classic 124grn. HP
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 5:02:09 PM EDT
I would like TAP T2 but in truth I use blue box 75gr and M193. In 7.62x51 anything with a 155 AMAX at the pointy end is good.
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 5:02:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 5:13:37 PM EDT
Bag #1
Hornady 5.56 75grain BTHP T2's TAP
Black Hills 77grain match HP MK 262
Loaded in Pmags

Bag #2
WCC M855 green tip bought from Bigbore back when the price was right
Loaded in Pmags

Bag #3
Winchester/IMI Q3131A
Loaded in milspec Labelle or D&H mags

AK is all older laquered Wolf or Barnaul HP's and FMJ's in waffled Bulgy mags
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 6:04:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2008 6:06:05 PM EDT by humblefan]
Originally Posted By kevinb120:
Not sure what the thought process is that one would fire one single shot and wait and observe what happens before firing the second.

I would think that in a true defense situation, I would probably put 4-6 rounds into someone before they hit the ground, and if they don't lay flat, maybe another 11-15 or so should do the trick, even with Silver Bear.. If they're really stubborn I'll go for 60 rounds.


True but if its a situation where you might be trying to hit a guy 600 yards out with a scope might not be an issue. While I'd never want to get hit even by a cheap .22 from a brick of 550 i know theres some rounds that are generally better then others. This is why I ask, as good ol' m193 is great but a second opinion never hurts.

So am I hearing that theres a poor mans TAP substitute? How can that be?
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 6:17:55 PM EDT
Any combo of LC or IMI 5.56mm in 55 or 62 gr.

Link Posted: 11/13/2008 6:23:55 PM EDT
Anything Prvi or IMI
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 6:25:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2008 6:26:13 PM EDT by QShok]
My barrel is 1:7 so I would take M855 and BlackHills 68gr match. Better range then 7.62x39.

Shok
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 6:27:06 PM EDT
77 Nosler w/cann pill, new Guat brass, CCI 041 primer, 24.8g TAC...

I guess I have my own Mk 262 5.56 for less than 25c a round...
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 6:53:19 AM EDT
If I want stopping power out of the door I pick a 308 ball round all day long. It will stop whatever is coming through the door. 20 rnds rapid fire will make you sore. It will make dead whatever gets in the way.

5.56 and 7.62 x 39 just don't work against body armor or someone hoped up on drugs.

Of corse double O from a 12ga can put a hurt on anything.
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 2:45:37 PM EDT
For 5.56mm-

Q3131A
XM193
South African M1A3
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 3:02:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2008 3:02:42 PM EDT by vicious_cb]
Originally Posted By don5544:
If I want stopping power out of the door I pick a 308 ball round all day long. It will stop whatever is coming through the door. 20 rnds rapid fire will make you sore. It will make dead whatever gets in the way.

5.56 and 7.62 x 39 just don't work against body armor or someone hoped up on drugs.

Of corse double O from a 12ga can put a hurt on anything.




Um excuse me but you might want to read the stuff tacked at the top of ammo forum

Link Posted: 11/14/2008 3:18:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vicious_cb:
Originally Posted By don5544:
If I want stopping power out of the door I pick a 308 ball round all day long. It will stop whatever is coming through the door. 20 rnds rapid fire will make you sore. It will make dead whatever gets in the way.

5.56 and 7.62 x 39 just don't work against body armor or someone hoped up on drugs.

Of corse double O from a 12ga can put a hurt on anything.




Um excuse me but you might want to read the stuff tacked at the top of ammo forum



OK, I offer to moderate this debate, Don, you get high on crack and wear some body armor, Vicious, you shoot him with 5.56 than 7.62 nato, we'll settle this once and for all. FOR SCIENCE!
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 4:01:25 PM EDT
I trust mine with WOLF! No joke, i have had less problems (0 to date) with wolf then i have with all other brands, WWB, Fed, and surplus. I love good Port, IMI, SA and would rather have them brands, only cause its brass and shoots more accurate but for reliability, wolf is the shit you can stock up on and get more for less $
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 6:38:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By beltfedMGs:
I trust mine with WOLF! No joke, i have had less problems (0 to date) with wolf then i have with all other brands, WWB, Fed, and surplus. I love good Port, IMI, SA and would rather have them brands, only cause its brass and shoots more accurate but for reliability, wolf is the shit you can stock up on and get more for less $




I'll have to admit that too; I've had more probs with other ammo. Seriously, never an issue with Wolf to date. And that's firng thousands of 5.56, x51, 9mm, and .45............
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 7:02:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QShok:
My barrel is 1:7 so I would take M855 and BlackHills 68gr match. Better range then 7.62x39.

Shok

Ditto here. Black Hills 68 OTM and Radway Green M855. I have 1K each. For 7.62 Russian I use Silver Bear and Monarch - both made by Barnual. I get groups 1/2 the size of the Wolf BB. I have 1K each and 600 Wolf left. Don't plan to shoot any of this I will buy Monarch and rotate stock. Don't plan to practice much because where I live I don't expect much trouble.
Link Posted: 11/14/2008 8:00:55 PM EDT
My go rifle is loaded with a 20 round mag of 75 tap. Not FPD, but not the 556 stuff either, this is the red box stuff. I have four mags of it with my go rifle. It is what my agency issues and I've seen it tested against intermediate barriars. I have every confidence that it will work like its supposed to.
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 5:07:55 AM EDT
I would grab my Magazines filled with handloads topped off with 53 grain Barnes TSXs, and the other crap I already have packed up.
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 5:42:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By don5544:
If I want stopping power out of the door I pick a 308 ball round all day long. It will stop whatever is coming through the door. 20 rnds rapid fire will make you sore. It will make dead whatever gets in the way.

5.56 and 7.62 x 39 just don't work against body armor or someone hoped up on drugs.

Of corse double O from a 12ga can put a hurt on anything.


M855 is specifically designed to go through milspec body armor, and 3 or 4 TAP or V-MAX rounds are going to put big holes in you no matter what you're hopped up on.
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 7:12:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2008 2:15:57 PM EDT by phoenix27]
For the guy who loves woof ammo, I use their 40 S&W/180-gr in my two Glock G35s and their new 9mm/124-gr in my G17L...no problems ever, with thousands of rounds fired, so I sort of agree. But on the other hand...

I've found that all of their .223 ammo has been problematic at one time or another and it's VERY dirty in my Colt 1/7 and two Bushy 1/9s. I would not even consider using that stuff in my Wylde chamber 1/8 RRA N/M upper. A buddy of mine tried using both the lacquer coat and poly coat Woof .223 ammo in his .223 chambered AR and was getting rounds stuck in the chamber like crazy, banging them out with a cleaning rod stuck down the barrel. I guess they might be less susceptible to FTEs if you are using a looser 5.56mm chamber. I just don't use any of that Russian ammo and don't seem to have too many of those types of problems.

For those that claim that the lower cost of woof ammo is better and allows for more practice, I respectfully disagree. Woof ammo is definitely underpowered and has a lower POI compared to your usual 5.56mm brands, so your POA/POI sighting will be all screwed up. And if you choose to use woof as your SHTF ammo, be advised, it doesn't frag well according to this site's ballistics experts.

I only use PRVI 75-gr OTM or Black Hills blue box 75-gr OTM in my RRA N/M for competitive shoots and even with that, there are some significant POA/POI sighting adjustments that I have to make depending which one I am using, so I have to refer to my notes. Be careful with that woof .223 ammo, especially if you are using the usual direct gas impingement system on the AR. If you are using a gas piston system gun like a Ruger Mini-14, it might not matter as much, but then, the sights and repeatable accuracy on the Mini-14 leave a lot to be desired compared to the AR-15 A2. You woof .223 guys won't ever have to worry about me buying up your precious supplies. I'll stick with the XM193, Q3131A and S/A M1A3 stuff for my SHTF deals.

Link Posted: 11/15/2008 1:37:53 PM EDT
5.56 Winchester M855 62gr. Penetrator Ammo

With an option for...

.223 Super Incendiary Ammo

But more likely...

9mm Federal LE Tactical Bonded 135gr. +P Hp
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 1:38:37 PM EDT
5.56:

Fed. XM193
Prvi M193 (2006-2008 lots)
Win Q3131

I like all of the above pretty much equally.

7.62

Win. M80
Fed. M80
Lithuanian M80

9mm

Fed. or Win 124grn. NATO
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 5:04:21 PM EDT
I have had people offer me $50 a box for this ammo and I tell them , It's good ammo but not worth $50 a box offer . There are many others just as good and better.Just my .02 cents worth. BTW I now have 6 boxes. And I now have a hook up with a guy at my Cabela's that when they come in , they find a nice hiding place until I get there.



Link Posted: 11/15/2008 7:10:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2008 7:11:58 PM EDT by socommatthews]
Originally Posted By CJD:
I have had people offer me $50 a box for this ammo and I tell them , It's good ammo but not worth $50 a box offer . There are many others just as good and better.Just my .02 cents worth. BTW I now have 6 boxes. And I now have a hook up with a guy at my Cabela's that when they come in , they find a nice hiding place until I get there.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll208/cojam_photos/IMG_06591.jpg



Thats nice, I have 6 boxes myself. You think there loaded in my SHTF mags? Hell no, that stuffs too expencive. I do have 4 mags with 75 grain match HP Black Hills and 2 mags full of LC M855 and not the XM stuff either.
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 7:44:36 PM EDT
I wouldn't trust my life to any 223 ammo against an armed attacker larger than 250 lbs.
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 11:37:04 PM EDT
Wow––it appears many of the posters here have ignored the last 10 years of wound ballistic research, as well as knowledge gained from LE OIS incident and OCONUS combat AAR's...
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:12:31 AM EDT
I keep about 1000 rounds of Black Hills 75gr MATCH red box and I use 75 gr PRVI for practice. Same bullet weight and minimal POI shift, I'm talking about less than .5" at 100 yards difference. Black Hills shoots alittle higher.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:39:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 1:40:15 AM EDT by ctznken]
Originally Posted By SnakeLogan:
I wouldn't trust my life to any 223 ammo against an armed attacker larger than 250 lbs.

That's what my 30 rd mag is for!

xm193
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:53:16 AM EDT
40+ years of evidence that the 5.56 is worthless as a man stopper.














































Not to mention thousands and thousands of dead bad guys.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 3:41:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 3:41:41 AM EDT by ffhounddog]
64 Grain Speer Gold Dots x10 Magazines
62 grain TAP Barrier X10 mags and 720 rounds in a ammo can
After that XM193/Q3131/Q3131a/TZZ/and dare I say it I have had 0 problems in my middys with ADCOM M855 and Qlympic SS109 I stashed my last 2000 rounds.

Wish I had saved the Olympic Brass. I have 100 rounds of the brass reloaded 5 times and no issues. Nice and strong stuff.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 3:45:30 AM EDT
Whatever is most accurate in that gun that I can afford a lot of.

Currently fed value pack 50 gr JHPs
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 3:52:29 AM EDT
Paddy,

That is so true.

Things were set to go down in price according to my FFL friend but the problem now is Obama and instead of lowering prices he is keeping them the same. People do not say anything about buying a 1200 rifle but when they see ammo for 240.00 for 500 then they freak out.

He is giving discounts to people that were seeing him before hand but he had to tell us no more factory prices on PMAGs if we buy a 1/2 case of ammo.

ffh
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 8:55:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By V-Rod:
77 Nosler w/cann pill, new Guat brass, CCI 041 primer, 24.8g TAC...

I guess I have my own Mk 262 5.56 for less than 25c a round...





Mmm....close but I use 23.5 grains of IMR 4064, a WSR primer. I get 2780 FPS out of a 20 inch 1/8 Wilson barrel and right around 1 MOA accuracy...

For .308 I use a 178 AMAX in Hornady match brass topped off with 42.2 grains of IMR 4895 with a WLR. I get 2650 FPS out of a 22 inch Lothar Walther barrel (AR-10) and submoa accuracy out to 500 yards.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 9:09:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 9:12:44 AM EDT by BushMeister]
Where is that 1-8 list of the best terminal ballistics ammo from ARFCOM, based upon DocGKR, Troy, and Dr. Fackler (Hornady TAP 5.56mm 75 gr best, M855 bringing up the rear)? If someone has the link, please post it.

If you are selecting ammo to protect your loved ones or your own life, why would you settle for #8 on that list (M855)?

If you're going with a 5.56mm defense gun, get some 75-77 grain ammo that will have the greatest effect on an attacker. Yes, it's pricier than, say, Q3131, but there's no excuse not to have 2-5 mags of the best stuff ready with your rifle.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 12:30:38 PM EDT
I personally spent a little extra cash and bought 5.56 TAP loads, as well as the Cor-Bon 62gr DPX, for my personal defense ammunition. Was it worth it? I guess, but I doubt I'll ever find out because I don't plan on shooting anyone anytime soon. I'd feel just as confident with M193 or M855, seems to be working for the troops. Just get a good fragmenting bullet and you'll be fine, it's more important to practice until your skills are second nature. the bullet will do it's job if you do yours.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:10:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 1:14:58 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
Originally Posted By DocGKR:
Wow––it appears many of the posters here have ignored the last 10 years of wound ballistic research, as well as knowledge gained from LE OIS incident and OCONUS combat AAR's...


No shit, Doc.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 1:17:32 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
Originally Posted By don5544:
If I want stopping power out of the door I pick a 308 ball round all day long. It will stop whatever is coming through the door. 20 rnds rapid fire will make you sore. It will make dead whatever gets in the way.

5.56 and 7.62 x 39 just don't work against body armor or someone hoped up on drugs.

Of corse double O from a 12ga can put a hurt on anything.


What made you come to this conclusion? Jeezus.

Read THIS and then get back to me.

Oh, and as for being hopped up on drugs that's why you perform a failure to stop drill or keep pumping lead into the threat until it stops.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 1:21:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 9:33:34 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
Where is that 1-8 list of the best terminal ballistics ammo from ARFCOM, based upon DocGKR, Troy, and Dr. Fackler (Hornady TAP 5.56mm 75 gr best, M855 bringing up the rear)? If someone has the link, please post it.
If you are selecting ammo to protect your loved ones or your own life, why would you settle for #8 on that list (M855)?

If you're going with a 5.56mm defense gun, get some 75-77 grain ammo that will have the greatest effect on an attacker. Yes, it's pricier than, say, Q3131, but there's no excuse not to have 2-5 mags of the best stuff ready with your rifle.



Here are some links to help out those that have not read the information BushMeister is talking about.

Read THIS ,THIS and THIS

ETA: Hmm, I just noticed that a lot of pictures are missing. Doc?


Link Posted: 11/16/2008 8:34:40 PM EDT
Which ammo I would most trust my life with? Whatever I can get my hands on when the SHTF. At the moment it would be AE tac black box and Federal brown box. I got one box of each.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 9:14:20 PM EDT
What Im hearing is alot of OTM or TAP. Why is that? Isn't match target ammo?
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 9:26:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
Where is that 1-8 list of the best terminal ballistics ammo from ARFCOM, based upon DocGKR, Troy, and Dr. Fackler (Hornady TAP 5.56mm 75 gr best, M855 bringing up the rear)? If someone has the link, please post it.
If you are selecting ammo to protect your loved ones or your own life, why would you settle for #8 on that list (M855)?

If you're going with a 5.56mm defense gun, get some 75-77 grain ammo that will have the greatest effect on an attacker. Yes, it's pricier than, say, Q3131, but there's no excuse not to have 2-5 mags of the best stuff ready with your rifle.



Read THIS ,THIS and THIS

ETA: Hmm, I just noticed that a lot of pictures are missing. Doc?




I've already read all that. What's your point?

Link Posted: 11/16/2008 9:32:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
Where is that 1-8 list of the best terminal ballistics ammo from ARFCOM, based upon DocGKR, Troy, and Dr. Fackler (Hornady TAP 5.56mm 75 gr best, M855 bringing up the rear)? If someone has the link, please post it.
If you are selecting ammo to protect your loved ones or your own life, why would you settle for #8 on that list (M855)?

If you're going with a 5.56mm defense gun, get some 75-77 grain ammo that will have the greatest effect on an attacker. Yes, it's pricier than, say, Q3131, but there's no excuse not to have 2-5 mags of the best stuff ready with your rifle.



Read THIS ,THIS and THIS

ETA: Hmm, I just noticed that a lot of pictures are missing. Doc?




I've already read all that. What's your point?



I shoulda been clearer, as I wasn't directing that at you. I was just trying to supply the links you were asking for. The links are for the people who have not read the information. Sorry about that.

Link Posted: 11/16/2008 9:53:29 PM EDT
No, your post was actually helpful. The link I was seeking was found in the post you made. Thanks for bringing it up again:

FAQ: The "Best" 5.56 loads with rankings
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