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Posted: 2/15/2006 6:33:37 AM EDT
I am new to the AR but I was wondering what type of ammo you guys use in your AR for home defence? I dont want to overpenetrate the walls and ect.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:35:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By loborojo338:
I am new to the AR but I was wondering what type of ammo you guys use in your AR for home defence? I dont want to overpenetrate the walls and ect.



75gr OTM - either Black Hills or Honady TAP. See the tacked threads at the top of this forum for more info.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:05:03 AM EDT
While it is much more likely that I'll call upon a pistol for home defense...I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max or IMI M193 ball. Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing. YMMV.

dvo
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:07:52 AM EDT
xm193.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:10:35 AM EDT
Winchester 64grn. Power Points and BH 77grn. SMKs.

Mike
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:10:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:22:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?





You guys are harsh.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:27:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:39:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.



Yeah...getting hit with that 55gr. VMAX will be just like a bee sting. Why hell, it might just piss the bad guy off. Why don't you blow me asshole!

dvo
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:45:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.



Yeah...getting hit with that 55gr. VMAX will be just like a bee sting. Why hell, it might just piss the bad guy off. Why don't you blow me asshole!

dvo



Easy guy, relax.
Forest is just trying to help you out.
Different types of ammo is best used in different situation.
The V-Max is not an ideal home defense load.
Sure, it's better than nothing, but don't you want the best round there is?
Folks are just trying to help, don't take it personally.

And for me, I use 110 gr softpoints in my M1 carbine.
The AR15 is incomplete still.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:54:32 AM EDT
I just rack the slide on my 12 guage pump. The sound has been proven in police studies to scary the bad guys away.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:58:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 8:58:58 AM EDT by FALARAK]
I use Winchester 45gr varmint loads.

I dont want to kill anyone. Just stop them. I keep a clip loaded with 28 rounds, and a spare clip next to the gun, so I will have plenty of shots if the first mag doesn't stop them.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:08:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 9:09:48 AM EDT by markm]
WHY IS "DEFENSE" such a hard word for our bright members to spell?

Reminds me of that Karate "expert's" thread a few months back! With 18 years of ninja skills under his belt, he still couldn't spell "Defense" right!
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:10:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.





So it'll make them feel better?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:56:12 AM EDT
Whatever I have on hand.

Sometimes it's Q3131A or Q3131, sometimes it's XM193. Sometimes it's 75gr Black Hills, sometimes it's American Eagle 55gr. Sometimes it's Winchester 62gr FMJ.

The ballistic tests are pretty cool, but if you have to shoot someone, he's not going to stop and say, "hey, you didn't shoot me with 77gr Mk 262...you know that it didn't fragment like Mk 262, and I'm still coming to F* your world up." He'll probably say "ow, stop shooting me" or something of the like.

All of the above is reliable in my guns. If you need to shoot someone, then they're worth shooting more than once.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:09:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zmeja:
The ballistic tests are pretty cool, but if you have to shoot someone, he's not going to stop and say, "hey, you didn't shoot me with 77gr Mk 262...you know that it didn't fragment like Mk 262, and I'm still coming to F* your world up." He'll probably say "ow, stop shooting me" or something of the like..



It doesn't matter WTF he says OR THINKS. It's about STOPPING aggresive action ASAP.

Getting a surface wound may dissuade them or it may piss them off or if they are high or really pissed off it may not be noticed at that time.

You need a round that will get deep enough to damage the vital blood carrying organs - no matter what aspect you are presented - and with the forethought that the round may have to pass through a large chunk of arm before it even enters the chest cavity if the threat is pointing a weapon at you.

You may only get time for one round before Mr Axe Murder is on top of you (home defense by it's very nature is extreamly close quarters). Make that shot count.


Originally Posted By dvo:
...Why don't you blow me asshole!


I'm sorry you must have lost your way. You can find your buddies at the Pink Pistols forum, That way ----------------------------->
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:12:53 AM EDT
Vmax or Ballistic Tip bullets are actually a viable choice for a HD bullet. I personally don't believe there is any one "do all and be all" HD loading. You must tailor your round to your personal requirements and your understanding of terminal ballistics. If you live in an apartment, duplex or have neighbors near by, a Ballistic Tip bullet would be a very reasonable choice. Many entry teams and LEO's use such ammo to minimize the risk of collateral damage. If you are going to use a Ballistic Tip bullet, 55grns is probably the smallest you should use. While it won't be a bee sting, a 40 grn Vmax may not cause adequate damage to cease hostile action, especially after hitting car keys or a cell phone. Heavy clothing and denim will also further negate the effects of this round. At typical HD ranges against a average sized man wearing light clothing, you should be "ok" as far as penetration and etc....If the invader is a heavy set biker, wearing a heavy leather

jacket, I wouldn't fell as confident. While your certainly going to cause damage, possibly even a mortal wound, you aren't likely to have the necessary "decisive" stopping power required to end a deadly confrontation. Every second the threat is alive is an extra second you and yours are at risk.
For those who live in an apartment or similar, the field is really narrowed down. Larger HP's and such have to much penetration to be used safely and Ballistic Tip "varmit" loads are really the best choice....or at least the most responsible choice. Do your homework and practice the failure drill and this should help minimize some variables that could go against you. While I don't disuade the use of "varmit ammo" for HD, I certainly dont neccessarily reccomend it. If you have space confinements, its a necessity but if you have the room, choose a more effective bullet with more penetration..
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:28:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Zmeja:
snip


snip



Very well.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:36:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:


Originally Posted By dvo:
...Why don't you blow me asshole!


I'm sorry you must have lost your way. You can find your buddies at the Pink Pistols forum, That way ----------------------------->




+1
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:46:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
WHY IS "DEFENSE" such a hard word for our bright members to spell?

Reminds me of that Karate "expert's" thread a few months back! With 18 years of ninja skills under his belt, he still couldn't spell "Defense" right!



Because "defence" with a 'c' is an equally correct form, more commonly used in GB but completely correct in any English.

If you're going to pump up the post count with spelling nazi posts, at least know what you're talking about
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:34:24 PM EDT
I haven't had to "use" it yet, but all of the mags loaded for home defense (and similar duties) are filled with M193-spec 55gr FMJ.

The mag I keep in the rifle is currently loaded with the last of my South African M1A3. The rest of my mags are XM193 and Q3131A.

My other rifle gets fed Black Hills 68gr OTM. While that would also be an excellent (perhaps better) home defense round, the rifle itself is not configured for the application as much as the other rifle.

The reason why I don't use the BH 68gr OTM for everything is because the ammo I shoot for matches and practice is all 55gr FMJ and my zero is nearly identical with M193. I'd have to rezero with the 68gr and use it all the time for everything, but it's too spendy for that.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:40:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rhino_:
.... I'd have to rezero with the 68gr ....


No you wouldn't. At home defense ranges you won't see any change in the trajectory.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:49:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
I just rack the slide on my 12 guage pump. The sound has been proven in police studies to scary the bad guys away.



#1... Mossberg 500 with Federal Tactical OO Buck...

But since the question was for AR's... Israeli M193

Rmpl
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:54:45 PM EDT
What is experience of the TAP75g in 1:9 barrels (16"). Enough speed to fragment at CQB ranges? Too heavy for a 1:9?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:56:57 PM EDT

Black Hills 75gr for soft targets

Federal TBBC 55gr (Trophy Bonded Bear Claw) for hard targets.


Other home defense measures include Daisy the psycho mutt. My pound puppy with a very bad attitude. Oh and don't even think about waking up my girlfriend in the middle of the night. She has begged me to use some Tannerite on the neighbors dog for running around on our deck at 3AM.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
What is experience of the TAP75g in 1:9 barrels (16"). Enough speed to fragment at CQB ranges? Too heavy for a 1:9?



Hornady's testing that they give to LEOs gives test results for a Bushmaster 16" 1:9 Twist. Speed is not the issue, the issue is one of stability.

Not all 1:9 barrels are really 1:9 twist. We did an informal survey here last year and found 50% of 1:9 twist barels out there will stabilize the 75gr rounds. All of my 1:9 barrels would stabilize (from 14.5" to 20") to varying degrees (1.75" to 4" groups).

The only way to tell if it will work in your rifle is to try it out. Before doing so I recomend cleaning out the copper first. I had a 14.5" that wouldn't stabilize it - till I scrubbed out the copper build-up (now it shoots 75gr to just under 3" groups @100y).
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By rhino_:
.... I'd have to rezero with the 68gr ....


No you wouldn't. At home defense ranges you won't see any change in the trajectory.



I'll second this statement. For along time, I was under the impression that a heavier bullet would have a different zero at 50yds. In my rifle, 75gr Black Hills and XM193 have the same zero at 50yds. As a matter a fact, they are very close out to the 200yd mark. At 300yds the difference in bullet weight starts showing up and the point of impact difference is greatly increased.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:06:48 PM EDT
Can't believe no one has said it yet.

<­BR>





Birdshot
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:07:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
I just rack the slide on my 12 guage pump. The sound has been proven in police studies to scary the bad guys away.



You are so right.

My wife and I had to face 5 guys, (we were at my store during a blackout) that sound at 3:00 AM in the dark, made them turn around so fast I was almost laughing.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:15:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 6:18:50 AM EDT by GySgtD]
Plain Jane Q3131, XM193, or even my own *equivalent* reloads.

I loaded up about 400 rounds of 69gr Sierra BTHP about a dozen years ago, but never got around to testing it for reliability in my AR. Sounds like a project...

This load was mentioned in the first thread, but I'm wondering (for the benefit of us handloaders) what is the proper velocity for it out of a standard length AR barrel?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:57:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.



Try telling the 55gr is ineffective to all the insurgents its killed, then come back and talk.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:10:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:19:28 PM EDT
First round is 00 buck. After that 9mm. After that TAP. If that doesn't work, I use the nuclear option. I throw a copy of the federal tax code at them.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:23:49 PM EDT
Depends on what you are fighting ?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:39:46 PM EDT
XM 193

I think about the 75 gr. TAP stuff from time to time but have not tried any yet. I feel good enough about the XM193 that it just doesn't seem like a pressing matter.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:46:08 PM EDT
Jeez, some of you would buy a tack hammer to build a backyard fence.

You have the money to afford the best, yet you settle for (and then stubbornly defend) varmint rounds and other crazy stuff. V-max? Come on, people.

In general, feed your AR the heaviest OTM that it will stabilize. Those of you who use M193 or M855, that's at least a sensible decision that's probably based on reliability more than anything (I'm assuming here).
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:57:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 4:57:41 PM EDT by JeepDriver]
Remington 2 3/4" 00 Buck from a Mossy 500

AR's are locked in the safe
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:17:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JeepDriver:
Remington 2 3/4" 00 Buck from a Mossy 500

AR's are locked in the safe



+1 for me,
I just don't expect a prolonged firefight in my living room where I will need more than my Mossberg.
Of course, if its not enough and I have to retreat, my wife has a Beretta .40 w/lasergrips while I fall back and re-group.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:27:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dajini:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
I keep some mags partially loaded with Hornady 55gr. V-Max


You expecting a home invasion by Woodchucks?


Defense implies a pretty short-range situation and I think 55 gr. loads are more than adequate for that type of thing.

It's not about the range - it's about what the projectile will (or won't do) when it strikes the agressor. That 55gr VMAX won't penetrate nearly enough. Please go back an read the threads tacked at the top of this forum.



Try telling the 55gr is ineffective to all the insurgents its killed, then come back and talk.



He is not saying 55 grain FMJ is ineffective.
He is saying that 55 grain VMAX (a round designed to kill varmints) will not penetrate enough to reliably stop an enemy.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:13:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dajini:
Try telling the 55gr is ineffective to all the insurgents its killed, then come back and talk.



Find me one solider that has used 55gr V-MAX on an insurgent.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:14:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:
...
In general, feed your AR the heaviest OTM that it will stabilize. Those of you who use M193 or M855, that's at least a sensible decision that's probably based on reliability more than anything (I'm assuming here).



Yep, at least the military rounds will penetrate deep enough and when they fragment do a respectable job.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:15:53 PM EDT
Thanks for all the info. And I agree a shotgun is probably the best option. But my AR will have to do for now. I was thinking that a round that was something similar to what a SWAT team uses would be pretty good.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:28:08 PM EDT
If you can find 5.56 TAP, go with that.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:31:54 PM EDT
q3131a for my AR, but my go to rifle is my FAL, and thats just loaded with ball
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:36:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 7:37:36 PM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Can't believe no one has said it yet.

Birdshot



Ask Dick Cheney if birdshot is an effective anti personnel loading when you shoot someone in the head with it...
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:44:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
If you can find 5.56 TAP, go with that.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:49:11 PM EDT
Q3131
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:53:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By loborojo338:
Thanks for all the info. And I agree a shotgun is probably the best option. But my AR will have to do for now. I was thinking that a round that was something similar to what a SWAT team uses would be pretty good.



No, no it's not.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:54:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 7:55:09 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
If you can find 5.56 TAP, go with that.






I have no dog in this fight, but I must ask.
Why would 5.56 TAP be a bad choice?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
If you can find 5.56 TAP, go with that.






I have no dog in this fight, but I must ask.
Why would 5.56 TAP be a bad choice?



75gr 5.56 TAP would be an excellent choice...If you're an LEO.

since 99% of us are not LEOs suggesting it is kind of pointless.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:30:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
WHY IS "DEFENSE" such a hard word for our bright members to spell?



More annoying to me is that 75% of the people who try to spell "lose" (rhymes with news) in their posts spell "loose" (rhymes with moose). The o_e and oo phonics rules are learned in the early grades.
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