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Posted: 6/13/2009 7:39:49 AM EST


Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:42:12 AM EST
Do remember that they would design the gun to be used with heavy gloves as well. They would need more room.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:43:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?




Ahem.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:43:30 AM EST
You'd have to have a solid inch of padding on your hand...
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:44:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 7:45:15 AM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:47:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?


The same guy that thought it'd be okay if a gun "eats where it poops." It works, but
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:53:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?


The same guy that thought it'd be okay if a gun "eats where it poops." It works, but

True that! Major design error. But it does work.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:54:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?

You are scoring the design of one piece of the system on a scale of "fail or perfection".

Go back in time to when it was conceived and compare the design to it's contemporaries... it fairs much better in that comparison.

Combine that, with ~40 years of consecutive service across multiple nation's armies with none deeming it necessary during that time to address this particular "issue"...

So no, our friend Eugene was not drunk when he designed the lower, but I hope he knocked a few back in celebration after he finished!


Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:00:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By kallnojoy:

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?

You are scoring the design of one piece of the system on a scale of "fail or perfection".

Go back in time to when it was conceived and compare the design to it's contemporaries... it fairs much better in that comparison.

Combine that, with ~40 years of consecutive service across multiple nation's armies with none deeming it necessary during that time to address this particular "issue"...

So no, our friend Eugene was not drunk when he designed the lower, but I hope he knocked a few back in celebration after he finished!




Not knocking the whole gun, but that grip was designed for little children. I have hands big enough to pump basketballs, and when I throw on the gloves and shoot you can imagine the grip is a little small. I consider that to be an oversight in grip design.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:17:22 AM EST
I have used the original grips for years

I prefer the a1 but have no problem with the a2 grip

I have tried the Houge and like them but prefer the original design

Magpul grips are too square and are not comfortable

The original grip was designed to carry the firearm on patrol for extended leanths of time with out fatigue not too many other grips do that as well as an a1 grip, the a2 is not quite as good the houge is 2nd. best


So as far as the original grip goes they do fine, if you don't like it replace it, but the a1 & a2 grips are not meant for bench shooting.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:22:43 AM EST
The A1 is definitely more comfortable... It doesn't have that funky bump.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:29:45 AM EST
That grip was designed to work with the "conventional" M-16 stock which works well when you actually use the weapon the way it was intended to be used. That would include firing and movement with the the weapon being held by the pistol grip, butt-stroking an enemy with the weapon being held by the small portion of the stock just behind the receiver - ect. The web of the hand doesn't need to "rest" anywhere - you pull the weapon back into your shoulder and "rest" your anatomy wherever your shooting position permits.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:33:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 8:34:58 AM EST by DevL]
The grip is required to fit 95th percentile of hand sizes, think about small asian or female hands. You can fix the grip with an aftermarket grip if you have large hands. You can also grip further down to get the trigger position you want. A receiver designed differently would not allow small hands to access the trigger effectively. My GF has very small hands and while almost no pistol will fit her, she can reach an AR trigger. This was the thought in the original design... make the gun ABLE to be used by the largest number of people vs making it perfect for most but excluding small handed people. The higher grip for a small handed person makes the selector reachable with a thumb as well.

This is why almost all military standard rifles have relatively "small" grips.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:48:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 8:49:40 AM EST by Orion67]
Wear fast-roping gloves (we were issued heavy leather gloves with the green wool glove liner) and then bitch about the grip. We kinda figured there would not be much time to remove the gloves and start shooting (excuse me whilst I disrobe ol chap - yeah fuck that) and I never had a problem hanging on to my A2. (Fast-roping onto the USS Belleau Wood at sea from a CH-46 at 90 feet is a fuckin wild ride dude. Who the fuck needs Disneyland?) As I was lucky enough to miss all that cold-weather training shit while in the Corps, I can only imagine the grip works with extreme weather gloves on as well.

Kilo 3/1 13th MEU (SOC) Helo Assault Company WestPac '89
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 9:44:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 9:44:32 AM EST by MSC182]
I have an A2, and my only design complaint was the grip. Since there are a multitude of aftermarket options, I don't see it as a problem.
ETA: I went with the G27 as it fit my hand better than anything else.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:24:47 AM EST
One size fits all.
No one said one size perfectly fits all under all conditions.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 10:37:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 10:45:08 AM EST by lamarbrog]
It seems to me people with small hands would encounter the same problem, perhaps even worse.


Their finger would still be angled downward 45 degrees.



Only my Father can get the grip to function normally... He doesn't have really big hands, but very thick hands.
My hands are large, but relatively skinny.
My Mother's hands don't fit it nearly as well as even my hands do.
My Brother of 12 has a real complication.



It seems that the diameter of the grip is designed for people with very small, skinny hands, but the height of the spine is designed for a person with big hands.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:16:21 PM EST
I never had a problem but then I never tried to put my finger at the bottom of the trigger to pull it either.....
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:26:31 PM EST
There is nothing wrong with the design and the more you shoot you'll realize this. It is a pistol type grip
and if you were very familiar with a 1911 you would know you'd want your hand as high as possible to the
bore axis. This can result in the trigger finger actually angled down slightly which doesn't hurt a damn thing as far as trigger control. I in fact replaced an Ergo that filled that upper cut with a Hougue so the web of my hand could ride as high as possible.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:29:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 3:37:09 PM EST by Joguwa86]
Wow, contradtiction. :P

With the A2 grips I try not the grip them like a pistol, but rather with more of a downward angle. As long as you don't chickenwing it works great.

With a pistol you need to grip near the bore axis because you don't have any other stability for the gun besides your hands. You'll get crazy muzzle flip with a low grip on a handgun.

With a rifle you have your shoulder to support the gun, so hand position is nowhere near as crucial.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just what I've been taught.

Examples of gripping an A2:



If I'm using a grip with a backstrap (MIAD) I'll grip it a bit higher, but with my little "downward grip" the A2 feel great to me
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:31:33 PM EST
Much ado about nothing. How could anyone design a pistol grip that worked with all hand sizes, including those big enough to 'pump a basketball' and the very tiny ones? People who are physically out there on the extremities learn to cope with the 'normal' world - it's part of life. They adapt by customizing things when they can, but they never complain about them - they know it will do no good and only make them seem petty.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:38:36 PM EST
Part of the grip design was also to allow the average sized had to reach the other controls without any interferance either.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:39:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By kallnojoy:

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:

Originally Posted By sweatpants:
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/6920_stock.jpg

Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Projects/MIAD%20project/IMG_1922%20Stick.jpg

Ahem.

I'll upgrade to something along those lines... It just makes me wonder why this type of thing was not incorporated into the original design... Who thought this was comfortable?

You are scoring the design of one piece of the system on a scale of "fail or perfection".

Go back in time to when it was conceived and compare the design to it's contemporaries... it fairs much better in that comparison.

Combine that, with ~40 years of consecutive service across multiple nation's armies with none deeming it necessary during that time to address this particular "issue"...

So no, our friend Eugene was not drunk when he designed the lower, but I hope he knocked a few back in celebration after he finished!




Well said. +1
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:56:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By kallnojoy:

You are scoring the design of one piece of the system on a scale of "fail or perfection".

Go back in time to when it was conceived and compare the design to it's contemporaries... it fairs much better in that comparison.

Combine that, with ~40 years of consecutive service across multiple nation's armies with none deeming it necessary during that time to address this particular "issue"...

So no, our friend Eugene was not drunk when he designed the lower, but I hope he knocked a few back in celebration after he finished!




I agree, absolute genius
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:59:51 PM EST
"Was Gene drunk when he designed the lower receiver/grip?"

Wow.

Actually, considering it has been around for 50 years with only minor improvements having been made to the original design, I would say what Stoner created was a masterpiece of design engineering.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:21:54 PM EST
Good Grief. Some folks wouldn't be happy if ya hung em with a new rope.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:26:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By SD307:
I have used the original grips for years

I prefer the a1 but have no problem with the a2 grip

I have tried the Houge and like them but prefer the original design

Magpul grips are too square and are not comfortable

The original grip was designed to carry the firearm on patrol for extended leanths of time with out fatigue not too many other grips do that as well as an a1 grip, the a2 is not quite as good the houge is 2nd. best


So as far as the original grip goes they do fine, if you don't like it replace it, but the a1 & a2 grips are not meant for bench shooting.


Where can I buy a brand new A1 grip?

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:29:37 PM EST
+1. if its a deal breaker, move on!
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:35:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By LGK:
Originally Posted By SD307:
I have used the original grips for years

I prefer the a1 but have no problem with the a2 grip

I have tried the Houge and like them but prefer the original design

Magpul grips are too square and are not comfortable

The original grip was designed to carry the firearm on patrol for extended leanths of time with out fatigue not too many other grips do that as well as an a1 grip, the a2 is not quite as good the houge is 2nd. best


So as far as the original grip goes they do fine, if you don't like it replace it, but the a1 & a2 grips are not meant for bench shooting.


Where can I buy a brand new A1 grip?



you see then on Gunbroker.

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:00:06 PM EST
"Was he drunk?"
Dude the guys last name is "Stoner"!
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:33:41 PM EST
This thread is full of blasphemy and it is extremely hard to mausturbate to..
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:40:41 PM EST
This thread is full of blasphemy and it is extremely hard to mausturbate to..
what can one add to that?
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:48:26 PM EST
I was issued a brand spankin new M-16A1 in 1988 and carried it into combat with no complaints. I turned that in for a brand new high speed M16A2 in 92. Same deal, carried it during a return engagement to the desert and to Korea plus months in the field with no complaints. I got a brand new M4 2006 that I took to Iraq and I didn't have any issues with the pistol grip. Truth be told I didn't know they made after market grips until recently. I have never heard a Soldier complain about the pistol grip in 22 years of active service. I guess we have the as long as it works mentality we don't the ergonomics.

Doc Williams
U.S. Army Combat Medic
JUL 87 and counting
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:16:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By DevL:
The grip is required to fit 95th percentile of hand sizes, think about small asian or female hands. You can fix the grip with an aftermarket grip if you have large hands. You can also grip further down to get the trigger position you want. A receiver designed differently would not allow small hands to access the trigger effectively. My GF has very small hands and while almost no pistol will fit her, she can reach an AR trigger. This was the thought in the original design... make the gun ABLE to be used by the largest number of people vs making it perfect for most but excluding small handed people. The higher grip for a small handed person makes the selector reachable with a thumb as well.

This is why almost all military standard rifles have relatively "small" grips.


WINNER!

took half a page but someone finally applied some logic and critical thinking.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:24:31 PM EST
To lamarbrog,
It seems you have stumbled upon one of the great deficiencies of the AR15.
This is an opportunity to make this right.
Put your money where your mouth is and develop a proper grip handle.
The world will beat a path to your door and be forever thankful.
Or you can be just another mouth with nothing behind it.
Your choice.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:49:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 3:52:05 AM EST by Catman2]
Originally Posted By Joguwa86:
Wow, contradtiction. :P

With the A2 grips I try not the grip them like a pistol, but rather with more of a downward angle. As long as you don't chickenwing it works great.

With a pistol you need to grip near the bore axis because you don't have any other stability for the gun besides your hands. You'll get crazy muzzle flip with a low grip on a handgun.

With a rifle you have your shoulder to support the gun, so hand position is nowhere near as crucial.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just what I've been taught.

Examples of gripping an A2:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/joguwa86/IMG_0032.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/joguwa86/IMG_0034.jpg

If I'm using a grip with a backstrap (MIAD) I'll grip it a bit higher, but with my little "downward grip" the A2 feel great to me


No, you're right, I'm wrong, partially.

I put great importance on high hand grip for a faster pistol sight aquisition and of course to keep muzzle flip to a min. An initial, high hand grip also gets me on target quicker with my CAR. I keep my hand higher than in your pics during muzzle down, vert. carry but the movement of shouldering /aiming to horizontal creates a void above my hand's web with leverage on the little, ring and mid. finger but with most support is from the grip's square backstrap as it's leveraged against the heel of my hand, morso if one doesn't chickenwing it.

Anyway, contrary to some of it's users, it's ergonomics never led me to wonder if the designer had a drinking problem.


Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:55:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By omega62:
"Was Gene drunk when he designed the lower receiver/grip?"

Wow.

Actually, considering it has been around for 50 years with only minor improvements having been made to the original design, I would say what Stoner created was a masterpiece of design engineering.

YMMV.


Especially when you consider how easy it is to change-out! I mean, ask yourself why didn't Mr. Stoner just make it part of the forging?

In other words, how easy is it to change the grip on a Glock, or any other pistol with the grip integral to the mold or forging?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:17:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 6:17:31 PM EST by JohnStark]

Originally Posted By lamarbrog:


Look at this... The red line is where I want my finger to be. Putting pressure on the bottom of the trigger, to get better leverage.

If my finger is horizontal, like I would thing it is supposed to be, the web of my hand gets nowhere close to the green circle, where it appears the web of the hand is supposed to rest. If I put my hand up like it appears it should be, my middle finger is heavily irritated by the ears of the lower, and my trigger finger is angled downward about 45 degrees.



... Is my hand deformed?

I had the same thoughts a couple years ago, so I started working on what eventually became this:



Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:35:50 PM EST
KISS

I do like the battle grip that came with the D2000


If you dont like the Bump on A2 just file it off

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:07:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
The grip is required to fit 95th percentile of hand sizes, think about small asian or female hands. You can fix the grip with an aftermarket grip if you have large hands. You can also grip further down to get the trigger position you want. A receiver designed differently would not allow small hands to access the trigger effectively. My GF has very small hands and while almost no pistol will fit her, she can reach an AR trigger. This was the thought in the original design... make the gun ABLE to be used by the largest number of people vs making it perfect for most but excluding small handed people. The higher grip for a small handed person makes the selector reachable with a thumb as well.

This is why almost all military standard rifles have relatively "small" grips.

I seriously doubt that Eugene designed the AR to fit either small Asian or female hands - given the time period and climate in the military at the time.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:09:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By LGK:

Where can I buy a brand new A1 grip?


http://jtdistributing.net/store/more_ar311.html
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