Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/26/2003 10:58:09 AM EDT
It seems a 16 in. barrel carbine is desirable for two main reasons: a smaller rifle and a lighter rifle. In other words, a handier weapon. However, a 16 in. Hbar clearly negates the 2nd of these reasons. My question is: why ever use a 16 in. Hbar carbine instead of a fully light govt. type carbine?

All the major makers offer 16 in. Hbar carbines so obviously people are buying them. I would love to hear from you guys who prefer them to the light carbines. What tactical (or other) situations make the Hbar preferable? What other reasons make an Hbar carbine more desirable than a light carbine?

Absolutely no flame or disrespect is intended. Just seeking illumination. Thanks in advance for your help.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:08:38 AM EDT
I've always believed that the primary reason for the HBAR being so extensively available is that the barrel is cheaper to manufacture. It was a great day when the major manufacturers started offering lighter barrel profiles...
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:12:17 AM EDT
HBAR's tend to disipate heat better than lighter barrels.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:15:17 AM EDT
I bought an 16" HBAR and had the barrel fluted. Best of both worlds.....
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:30:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Southrnshooter: I bought an 16" HBAR and had the barrel fluted. Best of both worlds.....
View Quote
How would you compare" fluted" vs "mil profile" +s &-s?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:27:25 PM EDT
I have both HBAR's and pencil barrels. The HBAR, 16", dissapates heat much better! No problem dumping multiple mags in a short period of time, in FA! I think the 16" is the sweet spot as far as velocity. I also like the shorter barrels vs the 20"'s. Weight does not play into the equation for me. YMMV
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:40:44 PM EDT
I agree with Chaz. The 16" barrel is a good compromise between the 14.5 and 20"
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:50:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DarkStar: I've always believed that the primary reason for the HBAR being so extensively available is that the barrel is cheaper to manufacture. It was a great day when the major manufacturers started offering lighter barrel profiles...
View Quote
Correct.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:31:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chas_martel: The HBAR, 16", dissapates heat much better!
View Quote
To be technically correct, the HBAR absorbs more heat than the lighter barrels. Other than FA or supressed use, I see little reason for HBAR profiles.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:06:43 PM EDT
Where is Tatjana? This is her favorite version of the AR. She should answer this.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:22:59 PM EDT
The 16" heavy barrel is still a bit lighter than the M16A2. This is magnified by the shortness of the barrel (the barrel acts as a lever, resultling in more felt weight with the 20"). It is quite a bit handier. The heavy barrel will be more accurate than a thinner profile 16" barrel because it is stiffer. It will not heat up as fast as a thinner barrel, because there is more metal to soak up the heat. It will also dissipate the heat faster because there is more surface area. For rapid fire, the heavy barrel is excellent. The fact that it will be cooler means it will be more accurate. Compared to fluted barrels, it heats up and cool down slower. It will in general be more accurate than a fluted barrel of the same diameter, because it is still stiffer. There are a lot of upsides to a heavy barrel if you were shooting rapid fire or wanted extreme accuracy. For most people the M4 or pencil profile would probably be better, with good accuracy and less weight. For me, I'd always take an M4 if it is offered. But I consider other factors (no brake, 1/7 twist, quality of manufacturer, forged FSB) to be more important.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:40:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:02:57 PM EDT
In my opinion, as a civilian, the 16" is the best choice. See with the 14.5 inch, you're forced to permanetly attach whatever flash hider/comp unless you're you want to go the long SBR process for an inch and a half. I'm talking prebans of course. I have a post-ban 16" fluted HBAR. I've owned an 14.5" M4 before, and I didn't like it nearly as much as this 16" HBar. The difference in weight is barely noticable, but there is SUBSTANTIAL difference in heat dissipation.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:23:15 PM EDT
My understanding is that because the HBAR dissipates heat better, the barrel is subjected to less wear and thus last longer. Being an AR, it's made to rapid fire and that's what I happily do with mine. I like the extra protection an HBAR offers.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 12:34:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 2:53:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: In my opinion, as a civilian, the 16" is the best choice. See with the 14.5 inch, you're forced to permanetly attach whatever flash hider/comp unless you're you want to go the long SBR process for an inch and a half. I'm talking prebans of course. I have a post-ban 16" fluted HBAR. I've owned an 14.5" M4 before, and I didn't like it nearly as much as this 16" HBar. The difference in weight is barely noticable, but there is SUBSTANTIAL difference in heat dissipation.
View Quote
So what is wrong with permanantly attached flash hiders?
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 3:31:19 AM EDT
You have to love the marketing of Colt HBAR barrels. Colt wants to reduce costs of making the AR-15, so they take a step out of profiling (lathing) the outer surface of the barrel to save money (reduction of barrel weight on a standard chrome lined barrel under the hand guards), Then label the cheaper produced barrel as the "HBAR", as if it has a differently produced chamber/bore than the standard Military barrels. Now everyone and there brother wants the Colt HBAR barrels, even though it makes the rifle front heavy, and don't realize that there is nothing match about the bore/chamber, just a less expensive/ill weighted version of a standard M-16A2 barrel. Note: On some of the heavy barrels (non-colt) that I have seen leave the suppliers, the bore is not centered in the barrel. If these barrels were to be profiled, they would be a disaster. I guess that some of the shops have went a step further in regards to lowering the cost of the barrel, by not perfectly centering the bore in the lathe before profiling the barrels.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 5:59:19 AM EDT
A heavy barrel also takes longer to cool "AFTER" it gets heated.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:28:37 AM EDT
While 16" HBAR's are heavier (.7 lbs) than the M4, the extra weight is very close to the center of balance so they don't feel front heavy to me. Also, the 16" HBAR is within a couple of ounces of my 20" gov't.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:32:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: So what is wrong with permanantly attached flash hiders?
View Quote
Nothings wrong with them, I just prefer the ability to add a suppressor to mine. I see your from Texas, a Class 3 state. What would you prefer, the suppressor or flash hider?
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:55:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2003 6:57:38 AM EDT by inkaybee]
Originally Posted By Rocket2Mars: A heavy barrel also takes longer to cool "AFTER" it gets heated.
View Quote
This statment should be modified as follows: "A heavy barrel also takes longer to cool "AFTER" it gets heated [b]TO THE SAME TEMPERATURE[/b] But if you fire the same number of rounds through both a light weight and an HBar the Hbar will be cooler immediately after firing and will return to ambient temperature sooner. There is an illusion that an Hbar cools slower because it can store more energy than a light weight at an equal temperature. If it has stored more energy then it obviously takes longer to release that extra energy.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 8:29:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By Lockedon: In my opinion, as a civilian, the 16" is the best choice. See with the 14.5 inch, you're forced to permanetly attach whatever flash hider/comp unless you're you want to go the long SBR process for an inch and a half. I'm talking prebans of course. I have a post-ban 16" fluted HBAR. I've owned an 14.5" M4 before, and I didn't like it nearly as much as this 16" HBar. The difference in weight is barely noticable, but there is SUBSTANTIAL difference in heat dissipation.
View Quote
So what is wrong with permanantly attached flash hiders?
View Quote
1) the only way to switch to a surpressor, is one of those worthless quick detactch F/H 2) Gunsmithing is ALWAYS required to change/upgrade to a newer better F/H 3) 1.5 inches isn't worth it. IMO
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 4:07:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By Lockedon: In my opinion, as a civilian, the 16" is the best choice. See with the 14.5 inch, you're forced to permanetly attach whatever flash hider/comp unless you're you want to go the long SBR process for an inch and a half. I'm talking prebans of course. I have a post-ban 16" fluted HBAR. I've owned an 14.5" M4 before, and I didn't like it nearly as much as this 16" HBar. The difference in weight is barely noticable, but there is SUBSTANTIAL difference in heat dissipation.
View Quote
So what is wrong with permanantly attached flash hiders?
View Quote
1) the only way to switch to a surpressor, is one of those worthless quick detactch F/H 2) Gunsmithing is ALWAYS required to change/upgrade to a newer better F/H 3) 1.5 inches isn't worth it. IMO
View Quote
1) thats a moot point for those who live in a non-supressor friendly state 2)Having to upgrade to a "better FH is not necessary when you already have the best, a Phantom [;)] 3)1.5" might not make a difference untill you need it too
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 12:12:48 PM EDT
Many thanks for all the thoughtful responses guys. Looks to me like the summary is: 1. 16" Hbar absorbs heat better. Probably relevant only for SAW or other full-auto (or suppressed) weapons so not a significant factor for most carbines (i.e., not worth lugging around the extra weight). 2. 16" Hbar may help accuracy to small degree. Again, does not seem like a significant factor worth lugging around the extra weight. When extreme accuracy is needed, a full rifle (not a 16" carbine) will likely be more suitable anyway. 3. Only good reason for 16" Hbar seems to be personal preference. Again, many thanks. You've all been most helpful!
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:14:17 AM EDT
Buy weight set. Eat steak. Work out. Make buggy whip arms bigger, get calluses on hands. Then you can hold up that really, really heavy H-bar or any other barrel with your callus covered hands without whining.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:22:49 AM EDT
All I know is after hauling around my FAL shorty, the 16" Hbar is a feather. Total non-issue to me, buy what you want and leave it at that.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:25:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 1:26:07 AM EDT by AK_Mike]
Originally Posted By Troy: An "HBAR" will not give you "extreme accuracy", a common misunderstanding. If you start with a high-quality match barrel blank, and the rifle is chambered properly, then you'll probably have excellent accuracy, and leaving THAT barrel heavy will allow you to keep that accuracy after a higher number of rounds have been fired and the barrel heated up. A standard, non-match barrel isn't going to be super-accurate just because it's thick and heavy. -Troy
View Quote
While I agree in general, a thicker barrel can aid in achieving accuracy because they tend to whip less making matching loads to harmonics a little more tolerant.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:36:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
Originally Posted By Troy: An "HBAR" will not give you "extreme accuracy", a common misunderstanding. If you start with a high-quality match barrel blank, and the rifle is chambered properly, then you'll probably have excellent accuracy, and leaving THAT barrel heavy will allow you to keep that accuracy after a higher number of rounds have been fired and the barrel heated up. A standard, non-match barrel isn't going to be super-accurate just because it's thick and heavy. -Troy
View Quote
While I agree in general, a thicker barrel can aid in achieving accuracy because they tend to whip less making matching loads to harmonics a little more tolerant.
View Quote
Don't foget about inertia (you know, body at rest tends to stay at rest, body in motion tends to stay in motion). I find it easier to shoot better with my Hbar as the extra weight of the barrel helps to steady it compared to the M4 barrel. The effect is small, but noticeable. This is one of the other reasons match rifles have heavy barrels- the extra mass tends to "absorb" those minute extraneous movements we all make. Anyone who doubts this should try firing a kentucky rifle with a 40" octagonal barrel- your would be suprise how easy it is to keep on target as long as your arms don't fatigue! (flinch from the powder in the flashpan excluded and ballitics of the weapon are another thing, before we get into a flame war on this)
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 5:59:03 AM EDT
Don't foget about inertia (you know, body at rest tends to stay at rest, body in motion tends to stay in motion).
View Quote
Yes; but try swinging that same barrel from target to target under time pressure and you'll find that inertia cuts both ways. It is easier to overswing with an HBAR than a lighter barrel.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 7:01:42 AM EDT
I recently swapped out a good 16" bushy HBAR for a new bushy 16"L.W.; I found them about equal relative to 100yd. accuracy from a rest. Surprise came when I tried off-hand standing w/ a tight sling. It is is possible to move group several inches in horizontal. Slight variation in sling position or pressure move things around. This is with a receiver mounted ACOG, it might be less w/ irons as sight post would move also.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:08:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Don't foget about inertia (you know, body at rest tends to stay at rest, body in motion tends to stay in motion).
View Quote
Yes; but try swinging that same barrel from target to target under time pressure and you'll find that inertia cuts both ways. It is easier to overswing with an HBAR than a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Actually, it's just the reverse. take a look at your skeet shooters. Many add weight to their barrels in order to have a smoother transition from target to target rather than a jerky one with a lighter barrel.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:25:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By berdan: I recently swapped out a good 16" bushy HBAR for a new bushy 16"L.W.; I found them about equal relative to 100yd. accuracy from a rest. Surprise came when I tried off-hand standing w/ a tight sling. It is is possible to move group several inches in horizontal. Slight variation in sling position or pressure move things around. This is with a receiver mounted ACOG, it might be less w/ irons as sight post would move also.
View Quote
What did you find was better for you?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:28:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By armax:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Don't foget about inertia (you know, body at rest tends to stay at rest, body in motion tends to stay in motion).
View Quote
Yes; but try swinging that same barrel from target to target under time pressure and you'll find that inertia cuts both ways. It is easier to overswing with an HBAR than a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Actually, it's just the reverse. take a look at your skeet shooters. Many add weight to their barrels in order to have a smoother transition from target to target rather than a jerky one with a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Yes, but skeet shooters are swinging the gun while they are firing, and follow-through with the movement after the trigger is pulled. Hopefully you're not doing that with your rifle. ;)
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:44:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 10:08:33 AM EDT by armax]
Originally Posted By kc3:
Originally Posted By armax:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Don't foget about inertia (you know, body at rest tends to stay at rest, body in motion tends to stay in motion).
View Quote
Yes; but try swinging that same barrel from target to target under time pressure and you'll find that inertia cuts both ways. It is easier to overswing with an HBAR than a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Actually, it's just the reverse. take a look at your skeet shooters. Many add weight to their barrels in order to have a smoother transition from target to target rather than a jerky one with a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Yes, but skeet shooters are swinging the gun while they are firing, and follow-through with the movement after the trigger is pulled. Hopefully you're not doing that with your rifle. ;)
View Quote
I've been skeetshooting for a number of years now and I've yet to see a follow-through that didn't result in a miss. the follow-through kinda doesn't happen with the recoil of the shotgun. the heavier barrel definitely aids in not overshooting your shot picture. The mechanics between the two are identical....fast transitions between 2 targets. Follow-throughs are for baseball and golf... Try shooting triples and following through...I guarantee you won't make the third..
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:05:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 12:09:16 PM EDT by MadProfessor]
I have a 16" HBAR with midlength handgaurds, I like it It is a little heavier then other barrels, but I really dont notice/care about the extra weight Mines a fine shooter, much more accurate then I am
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:57:12 PM EDT
Actually, it's just the reverse. take a look at your skeet shooters. Many add weight to their barrels in order to have a smoother transition from target to target rather than a jerky one with a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Don't shoot skeet, so I can't comment. All I can say is that it has been my experience that if you shoot several stages, the HBAR tends to be slower than the M4 cumulatively - though the difference is small enough it usually doesn't make the difference in a single stage. I've always attributed this to the heavier HBAR being slower to get moving and slower to stop moving (i.e. inertia) on multiple target stages. Be a fun thing to test if you had the shooters and time.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:29:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armax: The mechanics between the two are identical....fast transitions between 2 targets.
View Quote
No the Mechanics are COMPLETELY different. In Skeet YOU get to decide when the target will appear so you can get ready for it. Then the target comes out and you are swinging to track it. With a rifle the target will be a complete surprise - you will have to go from low ready (and you don't know how long you will be in that position) to on target as fast as you can. HBARS will tire you out faster in low ready. HBARS will be slower to bring up to the firing position. HBARS will have a tendancy to overshoot the aiming point. Lightweight profiles are easier to hold, faster to get up, and easier to stop on target. Now if all you do is punch paper from a bench then it doesn't matter what you use. But if you are into the defensive/combat use of a rifle then the lighter rifles really stand out. Heck I ran one course with my M4 profile and another with my lightweight profile. There is only a 0.25 lbs difference in weight - yet I could tell the difference after an hour (lightweight was better!). I'm no Swartenager - buy I'm no wuss either; lighter is better - particularly if you can remove weight foward of the magazine well.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:30:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Actually, it's just the reverse. take a look at your skeet shooters. Many add weight to their barrels in order to have a smoother transition from target to target rather than a jerky one with a lighter barrel.
View Quote
Don't shoot skeet, so I can't comment. All I can say is that it has been my experience that if you shoot several stages, the HBAR tends to be slower than the M4 cumulatively - though the difference is small enough it usually doesn't make the difference in a single stage. I've always attributed this to the heavier HBAR being slower to get moving and slower to stop moving (i.e. inertia) on multiple target stages. Be a fun thing to test if you had the shooters and time.
View Quote
Well, I've noticed that with heavier barrels...it is a learning curve. It takes time and training in order to stop fighting the weight instead of working with it. I know in skeet, that was large part of the learning curve. Though, keep in mind this applies to skeet in a ~90* window rather than in combat where one may have to spin 180* to acquire the target. But it would be interesting to test.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:00:36 PM EDT
My 16" Govt profile and my 16"Hbar M4 are noticeably different in carry weight. A few ounces really does make a difference. IMHO, the Pencil barrels are butt-ugly. TRG
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:11:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 3:14:52 PM EDT by armax]
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By armax: The mechanics between the two are identical....fast transitions between 2 targets.
View Quote
No the Mechanics are COMPLETELY different. In Skeet YOU get to decide when the target will appear so you can get ready for it. Then the target comes out and you are swinging to track it. With a rifle the target will be a complete surprise - you will have to go from low ready (and you don't know how long you will be in that position) to on target as fast as you can. HBARS will tire you out faster in low ready. HBARS will be slower to bring up to the firing position. HBARS will have a tendancy to overshoot the aiming point. Lightweight profiles are easier to hold, faster to get up, and easier to stop on target. Now if all you do is punch paper from a bench then it doesn't matter what you use. But if you are into the defensive/combat use of a rifle then the lighter rifles really stand out. Heck I ran one course with my M4 profile and another with my lightweight profile. There is only a 0.25 lbs difference in weight - yet I could tell the difference after an hour (lightweight was better!). I'm no Swartenager - buy I'm no wuss either; lighter is better - particularly if you can remove weight foward of the magazine well.
View Quote
It depends. A lot of guys (including myself) shoot from the low ready position (great habit to prepare for bird hunting). check out a skeet range sometime. I agree on the firing when ready but again, the BIOMECHANICS are identical... And HBARS do NOT have a tendency to overshoot their point of aim in comparison to a lightweight barrel. The heavier weight slows and smooths the jerky reactions of a quick mount. Again, go to a skeet range and compare the two (or ask a skeet shooter) and tell me which barrel weights are more prone to overshooting your aimpoint. All the other points you've mention, I agree with however.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:02:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DOA:
Originally Posted By berdan: I recently swapped out a good 16" bushy HBAR for a new bushy 16"L.W.; I found them about equal relative to 100yd. accuracy from a rest. Surprise came when I tried off-hand standing w/ a tight sling. It is is possible to move group several inches in horizontal. Slight variation in sling position or pressure move things around. This is with a receiver mounted ACOG, it might be less w/ irons as sight post would move also.
View Quote
What did you find was better for you?
View Quote
DOA- Lite Weight suits my new AR-"take"! I changed butt stock,24oz to 5oz., got a case of new in wrap GI 20rd. mags; loaded, each loses 7+ oz., shorter length of pull, allows 1 hand firing w/ pistol class accuracy, so I ditched my handgun for an emergency derringer. Lite weight carry pouch w/20's replaced vest of 30's.Butterfly knife replaced heavy fixed blade.I'm part Native American,and live in a hard wood forest; now I feel in character and move lightly and quietly. Which is exactly how I'll "get out of Dodge" when faced w/ situation not resolved with 80 rds. of TAP. Before, I felt and sounded like Robocop storm trooper, I love"kit", but shtf,no way I'm going to lug all that stuff 24/7. And, I can run up on somebody w/o them hearing. Fired a 20 rd. group at 75 yds in 3.5", standing, no sling w/l.w. barrel today.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 2:35:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armax: It depends. A lot of guys (including myself) shoot from the low ready position (great habit to prepare for bird hunting). check out a skeet range sometime.
View Quote
While I no longer own a shotgun - I have shot skeet, trap, and sporting clays.
I agree on the firing when ready but again, the BIOMECHANICS are identical...
View Quote
No they aren't. In the shotgun the gun comes up (and aims higher) as you continue the swing. With a rifle the AR snaps up and STOPS dead then you confirm sight picture and fire. Your target generally isn't flying accros the sky.
And HBARS do NOT have a tendency to overshoot their point of aim in comparison to a lightweight barrel.
View Quote
Yes they do - if they aren't then you arn't presenting the rifle fast enough. I have a few drills you can try (assuming you have a shot timer) that will show the difference in speed between the two barrel types.
The heavier weight slows ..
View Quote
Freak Man! I don't want slow - I want fast - the faster my rifle is mounted the sooner the round is down range and stopping the threat.
Again, go to a skeet range and compare the two (or ask a skeet shooter) and tell me which barrel weights are more prone to overshooting your aimpoint.
View Quote
I tell you what since we are talking about rifles and not skeet (which [b][i]is[/b][/i] entirely different), why don't you attend one of Giles Stock's classes and ask him? Better yet try shooting at a credit card at 25 yards (card should be about 5'6" off the ground) - use a shot timer.
Top Top