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Posted: 12/17/2003 10:41:33 AM EDT
Seems that this guy didn't care too much about his silencer!

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:59:43 AM EDT
that is one of the COOLEST pics i have seen.  i wonder how many Beta mags that took?  (and yes, i am ready for the flame war, "blah blah blah, why would you want to destroy your toys, blah blah blah, rambo wanna be, blah blah")

Hunter223 thanks for sharing.

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:02:41 AM EDT
Eh.  I'd still remove it slowly with my bare hands.

It's not REALLY hot until it's white.


Cool pic.  Thanks, Hunter.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:11:03 AM EDT
That's a pic from the torture test Surefire recently did on their new silencer.

You apparently can afford to burn a few out when you're the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:22:21 AM EDT
According to Surefire's mag in Guns n Ammo... their silencer can get to these temps and still continue to perform... :)
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:32:35 AM EDT
I'm sorry, but that is just badass.

I would expect the barrel to sag first, tho.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:43:58 AM EDT
Does anyone know the exact reliability issues that caused the Marine Det1 to drop the Surefire suppressor?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:23:10 PM EDT
Marine 1 found out they had the best in the Shurefire suppressors and kept them which are now deployed. As I had previously said, that story was not fully accurate.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:42:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 2:39:41 PM EDT
So Pat Rogers was in error when he said they were returned to Surefire?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:12:37 PM EDT
Pat did not have ALL the info as he was not there when some evals were checked and re-done properly.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:42:46 PM EDT
WOW!                               [pyro]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:29:35 PM EDT

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:41:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 6:45:13 PM EDT by Matt_B]
Well, if you've burned through all your ammo and the bad guys are close enough, you can just brand them with the darn thing. That is a cool pic...or is it a hot pic [:)]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:59:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:23:43 PM EDT
I say its been photoshopped! [:P]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:28:42 PM EDT
It appears that Surefire and Arms are in bed together.  I have heard that ARMS makes Surefire's new rail.  Also the Surefire/Guns and Ammo magizine on newstands is full of props for ARMS products and takes many shots at KAC products.  So when it comes to believing 3rdtk over Pat Rogers about Surefire products be very careful.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:56:15 PM EDT
Check it out yourself, I have no reason to give bad info and supressor usage can be easily verified, especialy by someone so astute as you. A question was asked and I gave the facts, if you don't like them that's your problem.                                     If you havn't noticed those two companies provide a lot of products to a lot of other companies, the military, law enforcement, and the general public. Your "in bed together" comment sounds pretty stupid since most major defence companies have to work together for products to fit together for gov't contracts. Gun writers don't have the knowledge of many things since they report what they may know or think they know, but the manufactures and military in this case, would and do know a whole lot more if they choose to share it.      
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:05:17 PM EDT
I've been thinking why SF M900A looks better on a SIR than a RAS...

[:D] J/K
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:07:03 PM EDT
I have to agree with inkaybee.  Jack, Pat Rogers is more than just a gun writer.  He works regularly with Force and DET 1 and would know better the equipment these guys deploy with.  I would have to agree with Pat, a man whose credentials are there for anyone to see over you.  You, a person (or persons) who remain anonymous, and works for or is bucking for a job at ARMS, and buys everyone of thier party lines.  

However, you have had a lot of good and useful advice despite your clear bias toward ARMS.  Present us with proof of MCSOCOM deploying with the Surefire suppressor and we'll shut up. Depyment means deployment.  Not further evaluation, trial runs, but full unit wide deployment.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:14:49 PM EDT
HEY, if you want the facts, ask those marines. I'm not selling anything nor am I promoting any artitcles I write. There is nothing to agree about here, it's a fact that can also be looked up under the procurments section by the military on this purchase. DERRR
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:22:44 PM EDT
I, like DevL, would like to know the truth about the Surefire can.  I take anything 3rdtk says as pure propaganda, but if anybody else would be so kind as to chime in I'd love to hear what they have to say.  I may soon buy a can and I am eyeing the Surefire and the Troy Industries can.  Any real info would be appreciated.  
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:44:41 PM EDT
Well you can always ask Pat if you don't want to go direct to the gov't like I suggested as what finely happened, and he will tell you what he is now allowed to devulge. I imagine you can also call shurefire and pos. find out there too, unless you think they are not giving the accurate results.
A gave a fact, not an opininion so don't kill the messenger.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:23:49 PM EDT
That would be one hell of a muzzle thump!  Ouch!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:55:58 PM EDT
I posted a question on tacticalforums.com in the Marine Force Recon section about the can yesterday.  My post was removed.  I think there is some rule about not asking about Det 1 gear because its not Force and thats a Force section or something like that.  I am fairly certain Pat saw the link though and he has not commented here.  At this point it sounds like 3rdtk may be right.  Perhaps the units were modified and retested?  I have no idea.

So when will these become commercially available?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:46:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
So when will these become commercially available?
View Quote

I doubt they will.  They are made in Kali, where there is a law against such devices being sold to the public.  Some may slip into civilian hands, as such things often do, but the only chance for mass distribution (relatively) would be for SF to move thier facilities out of the state.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 5:18:35 AM EDT
She's got one hot can!
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 4:49:53 PM EDT
From what I heard, sound reduction has been reduced to 28dB to keep the heat down.  That doesn't make me happy.  I am looking back towards the KAC M4QD can now.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:22:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 10:24:15 AM EDT by Green0]
That suppressor and M4 barreled Sir equipped upper supposedly saw 50 30rd mags dumped as fast as the mags could be loaded into the M4 and emptied with one full auto burst.

if you are wondering, I think it is a lie, and I doubt anyone could dump 50 mags through an M4 without catastrophic failure even without the added weight and stress of a sound suppressor.

If it were me doing the mag changes I could have hit 360RPM practical ROF easilly and that means the 1500rds would have been fired in about 4.5minutes.  I doubt an M4 barrel and gas tube could stand 360RPM for one minute and thirty seconds let alone do this.

I'm guessing the lie is an attempt to wow the LEO's and public and get some sales before Surefire takes a totall bath on this.

[b]How do you turn a suppressor entirely red without bursting and without turning the M4's barrel red?- stick it in a kiln? it'ld sure be hard to fire it till the barrel was cold and the suppressor hot.[/b]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:32:39 AM EDT
Does absolutely everything on this site have to turn into some big conspiracy argument?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:35:00 AM EDT
How do you turn a suppressor entirely red without bursting and without turning the M4's barrel red?- stick it in a kiln? it'ld sure be hard to fire it till the barrel was cold and the suppressor hot.
View Quote

Notice the ARMS SIR?  That's why the barrel stayed cool even though the suppressor is glowing [;D]

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:40:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Does absolutely everything on this site have to turn into some big conspiracy argument?
View Quote

Classic!  Can I use this for my signature line?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:50:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4arc:
Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Does absolutely everything on this site have to turn into some big conspiracy argument?
View Quote

Classic!  Can I use this for my signature line?
View Quote

You have my blessing, young Padawan.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:37:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Does absolutely everything on this site have to turn into some big conspiracy argument?
View Quote

DUH! Its because of all the govt moles.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:27:37 PM EDT
I am a believer in this pic. I know because the guy who shot JFK in '63 had one too. (I saw him.)

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:36:19 PM EDT
Regardless of the politics behind surefire and pat rodgers, its still a cool picture.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:44:00 PM EDT
I don't claim to be an engineer, but for the conspiracy theorists out there, a little logic is in order.  How thick is metal on the suppressor?  Quite a bit thinner than the barrel would you think?

You can see the barrel starting to heat up and turn red where it joins the suppressor.  Due to the thickness of the metal, the suppressor is going to heat up much faster than the thicker barrel and so it will start to glow long before the barrel does.

I make no judgment on the ability of an M4 to fire 1,500 rds without stopping, but for those who do, I have to assume you did it yourself or interviewed the people who participated in the test before publicly stating it was faked or impossible.  

I'm thinking of changing my sig line.  Maybe....
"Never argue with an idiot.  He'll just drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:21:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 11:36:12 AM EDT by 556Cliff]
Dorsai if you don't change your sig line can I use what you said you would change it to? Because my brother does that to me all the time.  
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:57:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 12:20:32 PM EDT by AK_Mike]
Dorsai, many of us have disbelief due to personal first hand experience with mag dumps (I am one of those).  Barrel aside, think of how thin the gas tube is.  That would fail long before the barrel.  If someone dumped that many rounds that quick, it would have melted long before he even got a third of the way through.  Notice how in the picture the tube isn't even glowing???  Either it's BS or there's more to the picture and story that isn't being told.

Corrected - steel, not aluminum, still very THIN steel though...
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:31:42 PM EDT
Perhaps it was tested in a "real world" environment.  They were using a waterfall as a backdrop for camouflage and only the suppressor stuck out and only it heated up!
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:35:36 PM EDT
The gas tube on an M-16 is made from Stainless Steel and not aluminum.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 1:47:59 AM EDT
Are not cookoffs an issue after 400 rnds?
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 2:29:51 AM EDT
They're not an issue for this test...
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 5:00:37 AM EDT
1,500 rounds...I don't think so.
Besides, it does not take nearly that many rounds fired full auto to make our (KAC's M4 QD) glow like that.  So now someone else has made it to our level (at least once that is).  I have seen our M4 QD do this repeatidly (210 rounds) and still remain serviceabe.  I don't know how well competitive cans will measure up to this standard, all I do know is that no one
eles's did during the original SOPMOD Suppressor testing that selected KAC's over all others because of our endurance.  Now, 10 years or so later, others have come up to speed, and this is good because we all want the user's to get the best suppressor possible.  So just let's wait and see if Surefire's is the one selected by the ongoing SOPMOD Block 2 Suppressor selection process underway at Crane.

Now although I don't want to re-open the sucking chest wound thing with dick swan/arms/3rdtk thing, I must make the following observation concerning the credibility of people who freely contibute knowledge to this excellent forum.
You all know who I am and even what I look like, now that my bio pic is loaded on this site.
And Pat Rogers is, well if you don't know who he is, you should, but the bottom line is that Pat is the real deal and standing out in front of the school house for all to see.  I even supose you could Goggle him and get his phone number and address.
On the other hand you got this other guy who continues hiding in the closet, that just because he has encylopedic knowledge of the A.R.M.S. line of accesssories, and then spurts only venom at about everyting and everybody else, is somehow given credibility about events he did not attend.
For example, there is seemingly no business connection between A.R.M.S. and EOTech as evidenced that no EOTech products use Swan;s throw lever mount...so 3rdtk dis's EOTech every chance he gets.  Now look at the Surefire Catalog.  See lots of throw levers and SIRS?  You bet.  SO everything SF does is absolutely the greatest, and if you (the public don't think so) then Dick/Tank/Jack will thrash you.
Now back to the red-hot suppressor topic.
Marine Det-1 needs some suppressors.  They bought some from Surefire.  Used them (and Pat Rogers was there) had numerous problems, issues, and complaints, so they tried to send them back and get their money back.  Had similar issues with the new HK magazines they had bought for the M4 they were testing as well.
Well neither manufacturer would take back what had been used, so the Det had to keep the ones they used--albeit reluctantly.
Subsequent to that (about 2 months ago), they received 8 of our KAC M4 QD's.  I spoke with them yesterday at Camp Pendleton, and they did not have any issues with the KAC product, did not want to send them back, and did not ask for their money back.
Now I am sure that Surefire is building a fine suppressor because I have been told that the guy that designed it used to work for Phil Seeberger, and Phil is certainly a world class suppressor guy in his own right.  Bottom line is, a military can is going to be a balance of weight, size, dB efficiency, flash suppression, back pressure, full-auto firing endurance, etc.  The main problem the Marines in Det-1 had was excessive back pressure from the SF can that then foulded the HK magazines and resulted in too many weapon malfunctions.  So my guess would be that SF's can may be a dB or two quieter than ours, because ours does not create so much back-blast into the breech.  From the picure of it glowing red hot, and assuming it was able to repeat this level of abuse several times, then I would suppose it weights as much as the KAC and is probably using a similar metalurgy.
Now these are just some of Dave Lutz's opinions, and you can take them or leave them, or even walk up to me at the upcoming Shot Show in Las Vegas and take your best shot, but why anyone would assign even an ounce of credibilty to a closet queen hawking his own product as if he was not Mr. arms himself,  WHO WAS NOT THERE, is beyond me.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:41:07 AM EDT
I just heard a pin drop.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:47:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 7:47:48 AM EDT by bsbg]
You've got to love the discussions we have on this board...[:D]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 8:27:16 AM EDT
Whats beyond me is why Lutz attacks anyone here since the subject wasn't even on his equipment. The 3rdtk info was obviously right on the money in response to a question about a Shurefire prodct. ARMS doesn't make cans, so why the rediculas tirade against Mr. Swan?
Answer is that both co's. he attacked are top notch competition and he can't stand it.

Link Posted: 12/20/2003 12:15:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
Whats beyond me is why Lutz attacks anyone here since the subject wasn't even on his equipment. The 3rdtk info was obviously right on the money" Jack

On the $, I don't think so.
Any time you call down some stand up guy like Pat Rogers, just look out.
That's where I am coming from.  He was there and not you.  
At lease Pat is man enough not to hide his identity and consequently his true credentials like you.  Of course, if you come out of the closet now, you will ruin your business on ar15, so now you have no choice.
So as long as you hide in your closet, don't bad mouth any of my friends or products and companies you have not been able to sell throw levers.
I also note here that Pat has too much class to lend any dignity to Dick's dicked-up disertation here. I, however, was in the Infantry for 23 years...so I don't give a dick.
Dick, try and not smoke for about 15 minutes, allow some air to reach your brain, and re-read what I said earlier today.  I think I complimented people.
But you are right about one thing Dick, you don't know jack about cans unless its the one your sitting on, or the one you have pulled down over your ears so you won't have to listen to the truth.
Oh, and congratulations on winning your protest with the GAO.  You and Bob must be very happy.

View Quote
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 1:28:46 PM EDT
Davey: From the 3rdtk's we wish you a Merry Christmas and hope you get over your illness and feel better real soon.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 1:39:40 PM EDT

[b][size=6]cant we all just get along?[/size=6][/b]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 1:52:12 PM EDT
Your on the money as usual Lumpy.
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