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Posted: 7/6/2003 7:15:05 PM EDT
[#1]
approximate 18" hahahahaha! I agree, two is one, one is none. I have a [approc] MK12 mod 0, I am thinkning of a Mod 1 now. But you keep telling me to save my money. So Im not buying nothing yet.
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Posted: 7/6/2003 9:43:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: TWO IS ONE. ONE IS NONE. RIGHT? Exactly right. -Troy |
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Posted: 7/6/2003 9:44:19 PM EDT
[#3]
I always thought
"2 is 1 and 1 is none" was about operating in at a minimum buddy teams in a MOUT environment not carrying 2 M16's : ) Some of us can't afford everything in pairs. |
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Posted: 7/6/2003 9:54:00 PM EDT
[#4]
I hate you Wes. If only I had money [banghead].
You have way too many toys that I want. One day though, I'll be able to afford that SIR, and that Vltor stock, and the arms mounts, and the Leupold optics, and the nice buis, and the................shit[:(]. OK, how bout u give me some cash, then I'll buy some add-ons from you, and we'll call it even? Sounds like a plan to me. Please send money order to.... [sniper] |
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Posted: 7/6/2003 9:59:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Wes,
What are the muzzle velocity differences when comparing the 18" to the 16" and 20" barrels? Calvin |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 5:43:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: But you keep telling me to save my money. So Im not buying nothing yet. [>:/] |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 6:35:59 AM EDT
[#7]
How about a pic of your Olive Drab set up?
Are you using the Ops Inc. Brake on these uppers or the KAC QD Comp? Pics would be good!! Jm03 |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 7:49:50 AM EDT
[#8]
Wes:
Do you mean that you've abandoned 16" HBARs or 16" M4 style rifles? |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 8:12:22 AM EDT
[#9]
CHECK WITH THE AMMO GURUS ON THE VELOCITY DIFFERENCES. I HAVE NOT CHRONO'D THEM.
YES, I HAVE AT THIS POINT ABANDONED THE 16" IN 5.56MM. THERE IS A 16" IN MY FUTURE, HOWEVER, BUT IN A NEW CALIBER. I'M USING AN OPS INC BRAKE ON THIS O.D. SPR, BUT THE KAC M4 QD COMP IS REALLY A MUCH BETTER FLASH SUPPRESSOR AND JUST AS GOOD AT KILLING THE MUZZLE RISE. IT JUST DOES NOTHING TO THE WHOPPING THREE FOOT-POUNDS OF RECOIL. THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE OPS INC BRAKE IS TO REDIRECT THE GAS AFT INTO THE OPS INC SOUND SUPPRESSOR... WHICH SADLY I DO NOT HAVE. IT'S STILL A DECENT BRAKE, BY ITSELF. AND WAY COOL. WES |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 9:24:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Does the 18inch barrel utilize a rifle length gas tube? Is that one of the reasons you feel it is better than 16 and 20?
Can you get one that is chrome lined? |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 9:30:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Wes:
Any details on that "COLT M4 14.5" HEAVY BARREL" you mentioned? |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 9:39:13 AM EDT
[#12]
COLT 0921HB MODEL. A FEW WERE SHIPPED BY COLT IN ERROR TO CIVILIAN SUPPLIERS WHO ORDERED M4 UPPERS. I HAD ONLY FOUR OR FIVE.
WES |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 9:40:27 AM EDT
[#13]
I myself would prefer chrome lining, but then, I'm not a sniper or DCM shooter. I like the SPR concept, always a fan of the light, accurate rifle, but I'm leaning towards a shorter and lighter rifle. :)
How does the HB 14.5 differ from the M4? Is it the elusive M4A1 HB? Or is it a straight .75" tube? |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 10:29:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: DO NOT BE SURPRISED TO SEE 18" BARRELS USING MID-LENGTH GAS SYSTEMS IN THE FUTURE. WES Already filling orders for them! It is a real good setup, but I still prefer our 16" mid-length with full length, free float handguards set up ala Dissy style -- I love this setup, full length guards, full sight radius, reliability of the mid gas system... all in a short, very well balanced package. I have switched to SS barrels on all the guns, the price is more, but you get more... Had some Nickle Boron (NiB) M4 barrels, which seems a better choice than HC -- farted around with Boron Carbide and some others, but the SS barrels hold up well and are a pleasure to work with. Going to 3 groove, 1:8 rifling extends the throat life and I am very happy using a straight .750 cut the full length of the barrel... No steps and a good copromise between material strength and weight. As with you, I only have two M4 type uppers that I even take out anymore and both of those are modified to improve reliability. The 16" carbine upper is (imho) still a very good deal for compact, vehicle or patrol use. |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 12:28:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Wes,
I couldn't agree more. This 18" SPR is great. Apparently, a couple of guys over on "ammo" don't agree. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=164480[/url] I'm glad this is a big tent with room for all. Ed |
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Posted: 7/7/2003 1:26:14 PM EDT
[#16]
How is the ops brake for the shooters behind you, is it as bad as the ak-74 brake or the mini y?
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Posted: 7/7/2003 5:03:13 PM EDT
[#17]
THE OPS INC BRAKE IS PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO REDIRECT GAS FLOW INTO THE OPS INC 12TH MODEL SOUND SUPPRESSOR, MADE OF UNOBTANIUM.
THAT BEING SAID, IT IS NOT AN OFFENSIVE BRAKE AT ALL, NOTHING LIKE THE Y-COMP FAMILY. IT DOES NOT DIRECT BLAST BACK NEARLY SO MUCH AS MANY OTHER DESIGNS. YOU'LL STILL BE ABLE TO SHOOT WITH FRIENDS USING AN OPS INC BRAKE. OF SOME IMPORTANCE IS THE FACT THAT THE OPS INC BRAKE IS AN "ACCURATE" BRAKE. ACCURACY IS IN NO WAY DEGRADED BY IT. DUCATI650 - I READ THE COMMENTS YOU DIRECTED ME TO ON THE AMMO FORUM. I AM PLEASED TO REPORT THAT I, TOO, DO NOT SPEAK HIP-HOP, NOR DO I CARE TO, EVER. WES |
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Posted: 7/8/2003 3:05:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Roger that, Wes.
Ed |
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Posted: 7/12/2003 12:56:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Wes,
Good points, but as great shooting as the 18" Mk12 SPR's are, they are just too long for CQB/entry and they are awkward deploying from vehicles--if I could only have one "jack-of-all-trades" upper, it would be a mid-length 16" Recce. |
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Posted: 7/12/2003 10:17:55 AM EDT
[#20]
I'm in the process of building a similar upper, only with a KAC flash suppressor and a 4x32 ACOG. It's good to see ducati650's completed upper. It must be a joy to shoot.
If you're worried about deploying your weapon from a vehicle - take the doors off (if you can) and keep it pointed towards the threat. I don't see how an 18" barrel will differ much from a 14.5" in that respect. I've found that the most awkward thing about carrying a rifle in a vehicle is the stock length. -Ed |
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Posted: 7/12/2003 11:00:25 AM EDT
[#21]
MSTN's post made me think about this. When I walked by the saddle rack that I had leaned my Romak II 5.45x39 and my 18" barreled AR I noticed the size similarity. I decided to put my DPMS with an M4 barrel and a tele-stock in the middle for size comparison too. I thought it was interesting. [img]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/3042/2694AR74DPMS-med.jpg[/img]
IDHunt |
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Posted: 7/14/2003 2:51:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: IN WHAT CALIBER? WES What caliber 16" upper are you getting? |
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Posted: 7/14/2003 3:20:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: PATIENCE... THE WAIT WILL BE WORTHWHILE. WES Just tell me how much i have to save and how long.LOL |
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Posted: 7/14/2003 3:56:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: PATIENCE... THE WAIT WILL BE WORTHWHILE. WES Would this new mystery upper happen to use a mid-length gas system? If you cant say, thats OK |
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Posted: 7/14/2003 4:01:01 PM EDT
[#25]
YES, IT DOES.
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Posted: 7/14/2003 5:19:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Wes, I think I know what it is :-D PM incoming!
-Cap'n |
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Posted: 7/14/2003 5:31:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Howabout a hint?
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Posted: 7/14/2003 8:44:48 PM EDT
[#28]
caliber?
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Posted: 7/16/2003 7:19:35 AM EDT
[#29]
DocKGR: if this is the same doctor of legend from Tacticalforums, my hat is off to you, sir.
Myself, I am disheartened by the reports of SPRs which are heavier than the often-mocked 20" Bushmaster HBAR. Length is a factor in handiness, but weight increases fatigue. I wonder what could be done to split the difference between the SPR and the M4-- accurize the carbine and still keep it light and handy. |
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Posted: 7/16/2003 8:44:00 AM EDT
[#30]
"I wonder what could be done to split the difference between the SPR and the M4-- accurize the carbine and still keep it light and handy."
GOOD POINT... THAT IS WHAT THE 16" RECCE CARBINE HE WAS REFERRING TO IS. HOWEVER, THE WEIGHT OF AN 18" SPR IS NOWHERE NEAR THAT OF A 20" HBAR. THE 20" HBAR CONTOUR APPROXIMATES THAT OF A SERVICE RIFLE MATCH BARREL, WHICH WEIGHS IN AT A SOLID 16 OUNCES MORE THAN AN SPR BARREL. AND THAT WEIGHT IS OUT FRONT, TOO, SLOWING DOWN THE GUN QUITE A BIT. WES |
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Posted: 7/16/2003 3:18:55 PM EDT
[#31]
So you could use a 18" for cqb too?
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Posted: 7/16/2003 3:39:46 PM EDT
[#32]
18" IS ADMITTEDLY NOT OPTIMUM FOR CLOSE QUARTERS WORK. THAT'S WHAT THE SHORTIES ARE FOR.
OF COURSE, IT DEPENDS TO A DEGREE ON HOW "CLOSE" THE "QUARTERS" ARE. I REMEMBER PLAYING BAD GUY DURING A CQC SIMUNITIONS EXERCISE IN AN OLD MILITARY HANGAR. 200 YARD SHOTS WERE POSSIBLE, WELL BEYOND SIMUNITIONS RANGE. AN SPR MIGHT BE WELL-SUITED FOR SUCH A SETTING. IN A LITTLE AFGHANI MUD HOOCH, A 1911 MIGHT BE A BETTER CHOICE. BUT AN 18" SPR-WEIGHT BARREL PRODUCES A FAR MORE WELL-BALANCED, MANEUVERABLE WEAPON THAN A 20" SERVICE RIFLE MATCH TUBE. AND, IT STILL POSSESSES SUB-MOA ACCURACY POTENTIAL. WES |
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Posted: 7/16/2003 4:03:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Run the SPR style rifle with Irons or an Aimpoint/Eothing or ACOG and you will be pleasantly surprised. It handles almost EXACTLY like a Bushmaster Dissipator, and it's infinitely more accurate. At least, that's with a FFRAS, I have no clue how the other versions feel.
-Cap'n |
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Posted: 7/16/2003 4:26:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: I wonder what could be done to split the difference between the SPR and the M4-- accurize the carbine and still keep it light and handy. This is the route I have tried to take with my latest project. I have a 16 inch HBar turned down to .75 inch all the way. I use a Danial Defense 9.5 FSP FF Rail. This rail is mid lenght with a cut out for the front sight. I have room for a Vertical grip, a traditional griping surface, and a spot to quick mount a harris bi-pod. The rail is light (around 2 oz more than the parts it replaces) And the barrel modificaion saved about 8oz My Optic is a TA01NSN with a Docter red dot on top. The Docter is a great QBC optic and the NSN is a good medium range optic but is does not have enough magnification for long range precision work. In addition to the ff rail another accuracy enhancment is an accuracy speaks single stage triger. I give up very little to an M4 in close and I can consistantly hit man sized targets out to 600 meters (about 15" groups). Long range accuracy is not sniper grade. The 5.56 chamber, chrome bore, and mil spec ammo are the limmiting factors. But for me this is a good compromise. |
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Posted: 7/16/2003 5:16:02 PM EDT
[#35]
I was thinking some where in the middle. The 20" is too long for cqb and the 14.5 is too short for 300 and above but the 18" is some where in the middle. I remember trying to manuver with a 20" A1 in basic in 1986.
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Posted: 7/17/2003 6:55:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Wes:
Maybe I mis-recall the reported wieghts of SPRs built on the board then. My mistake. What are the loaded and unloaded weights of the SPRs you build? And you you have more info on the "Recce Carbine"? A 16" SPR/M4 Hybrid might be sweet. Lower power optic, good telestock.... I think that's the sound of my checking account drying up. ;) I think we are all trying to avoid dragging a golf bag behind us full of rifles, each of us taking a different route to that goal. I know for certain that if I have to haul something as heavy as an HBAR around, I want to shoot bigger bullets from it. |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 2:11:12 PM EDT
[#37]
i was talking with a guy from pri and he said they are coming out with some 6.5 or 6mm spr uppers that would be sweet in about 45 days. is this upper similar are a different system all together wes?
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Posted: 7/17/2003 4:11:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: i was talking with a guy from pri and he said they are coming out with some 6.5 or 6mm spr uppers that would be sweet in about 45 days. is this upper similar are a different system all together wes? I think its 6.8mm |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 4:41:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Wes
Does anyone make a "good quality" 18" barrel that would have the contour cut of the SPR you are speeking of but be in a Chrome Lined Version, similar to an Armalite or Bushy Price range. maybe not as high grade as a Douglas or others being used on the Current SPR. BTW What does one of the high quality ones you use cost to the average joe. chuck |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 4:52:54 PM EDT
[#40]
CHUCK,
NO ONE ELSE MAKES THE SPR CONTOUR. NO ONE MAKES A CHROME LINED 18" AT THIS POINT. OUR COMPASS LAKE-BUILT DOUGLAS PREMIUM STAINLESS SPR BARRELS ARE THE CORRECT SPR CONTOUR. THEY ONLY WEIGH 38 OUNCES, 10 OUNCES MORE THAN A 14.5" M4 BARREL. YET THEY'RE CAPABLE OF SHOOTING SUB-MOA WITH DECENT AMMO. THEY COME K-G COATED BLACK AND NOW GRAY, WITH A FITTED BOLT. THEY WILL NOT LAST AS LONG AS A CHROME LINED BARREL, PERHAPS, BUT THEY'LL LAST ONE HELL OF A LONG TIME. THAT'S WHY CRANE PICKED THEM AFTER THE DESTRUCTIVE TESTING. AND THE SPR BARREL WILL POSSESS FAR MORE POTENTIAL ACCURACY THAN A CHROME LINED BARREL. THEY COST $450, WITH THE FITTED BOLT. WES GRANT [URL]MSTN.BIZ[/URL] |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 6:34:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Thanks wes
Informative as usual. cp |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 8:19:43 PM EDT
[#42]
"The 20" is too long for cqb and the 14.5 is too short for 300 and above but the 18" is some where in the middle. I remember trying to manuver with a 20" A1 in basic in 1986."
Our unit has been issued A2's for 5 years (finally getting the new issue of M4's on the 28th) we recently spent 8 months MOUT training (CQB environment) very quickly you learn tricks to make it work- like dipping the muzzle down when going through doorways rotating it toward your sector and bringing it up as you cross the threshold, takes FAR FAR longer to say than to accomplish and greatly simplifies an otherwise cramped situation- (the A2 is perfectly good for CQB) IDEAL? Ideal is a 7.5inch carbine/ stock collapsed and chambered in .30 carbine. The M4 is not too short for 300M. Kills have been documented at 600M in Afghanistan with the M4/ACOG combo. That is a figment of some magazine writers' imagination that makes people believe the M4 is terribly impotent. A lot of Arabs with AK's have gotten their asses kicked so far (war on terror) and the AK's 7.62x39 round is widely credited with adequate stopping power. [b] Now my questions: 1. Is there any weight to the comments that surface about SS having no place on a select fire weapon? Is fullauto/SS bbl a no-go? I thought the combo made sence but I have heard a lot of comments to the contrary. 2. Why no 16in? does it have something to do with the fact that the carbine gas tube quickly overheats during abuseive fire and bursts from excess gas (too much bbl in front of gas port?) 3. Does this mean Magical linings aren't neccassary?[/b] |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 8:56:13 PM EDT
[#43]
16" = Midlength
I have quickly come to be a 16" midlength supporter over the 14.5" C8 or M4A1. (Now I have 4 14.5 guns and am trying to figure what to do with them...) Well I will add them into the closet full of extra crap - they will get the padding of the CQ/T...) I have decided to get onto the SPR wagon and am going to have to spring for a Mk12 Mod1 But since we get the reflex suppressor the 16 midlength is a much superior system for CQB for me than a 18(ish) SPR with a muzzle mount can... Same with the 20" MRS/SAM - but I NEED the SPR for personal gratifiaction. |
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Posted: 7/17/2003 9:23:29 PM EDT
[#44]
*******The M4 is not too short for 300M. Kills have been documented at 600M in Afghanistan with the M4/ACOG combo. That is a figment of some magazine writers' imagination that makes people believe the M4 is terribly impotent. A lot of Arabs with AK's have gotten their asses kicked so far (war on terror) and the AK's 7.62x39 round is widely credited with adequate stopping power******
600m with an M4/acog----I hope he called it a day after that. |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:50:21 AM EDT
[#45]
WHERE DID THE CARBINE LENGTH GAS SYSTEM COME FROM? THE 11.5" COMMANDO.
IT ALSO WORKS FINE IN THE 14.5". BUT, IT MAY BE LESS THAN IDEAL FOR A 16". BUT IT STILL WORKS. HOWEVER, A MID-LENGTH GAS SYSTEM IS PERFECT FOR A 16". MAYBE EVEN FOR AN 18", TOO. CREDIT GOES TO THOSE WHO MADE THIS HAPPEN. THE SHORTER THE RANGES, THE CLOSER THE CONFINES, THE MORE A SHORTER BARREL MAKES SENSE. WES |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 8:37:02 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: *******The M4 is not too short for 300M. Kills have been documented at 600M in Afghanistan with the M4/ACOG combo. That is a figment of some magazine writers' imagination that makes people believe the M4 is terribly impotent. A lot of Arabs with AK's have gotten their asses kicked so far (war on terror) and the AK's 7.62x39 round is widely credited with adequate stopping power****** 600m with an M4/acog----I hope he called it a day after that. Since new-arguys M4 shoots minute of angle at 300m with cheep Winchester white box 45gr JHPs bought at Wall Mart, and we have film and witnesses of it, I beleve it. Probably SF guys with Mk262 77gr OTM rounds were doing most of the long range hitting though. I PERSONALLY HAVE SOLD ALL MY 16" UPPERS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE 7.62X39 (ANYBODY WANT IT?) AND GONE TO THE 18" SPR. DON'T MISS 'EM. So, Wes, what do YOU think about the possible switch from the M4/M16 to the HK G36? |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 10:02:40 AM EDT
[#47]
Since new-arguys M4 shoots minute of angle at 300m with cheep Winchester white box 45gr JHPs bought at Wall Mart, and we have film and witnesses of it, I beleve it. Probably SF guys with Mk262 77gr OTM rounds were doing most of the long range hitting though. new-arguy most likely shoots more than anyone in the military(except delta). Still 600m is a long way with a 4x acog(i've seen stranger things).Alot of factors come into play; wind, at what angle the enemy is standing,etc. Don't tell me it was a head shot. A human head is a little more than MOA at that distance. Someone should take away that guys M4 and get him a SPR, think of the possibilties |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 10:10:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Well they would probably be more Consistant at 600m, cause for one thing, the SPR uses a higher power scope, and the hold over isn't quite as great as the projectile is a couple hundred FPS faster.
Point was that it can be done. |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 10:10:55 AM EDT
[#49]
Wes: any word on the wieghts of an SPR? Mod0, Mod1?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 10:18:26 AM EDT
[#50]
DEPENDS TOO MUCH ON HOW THEY'RE CONFIGURED.
SCOPE RINGS BIPOD TACTICAL LIGHT IR LASER/ILLUMINATOR MOD 0 OR MOD 1 BUTTSTOCK THE MOD 1COMPLETE UPPER, BUT WITH NOTHING MOUNTED ON IT, WEIGHS 5 LB 7 OZ. A COMPLETE OWER WILL WEIGH 2 LB 4 OZ TO 2 LB 8 OZ, DEPENDING ON STOCKS. A MOD 0 UPPER WILL WEIGH ALMOST A POUND MORE. WES |
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