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Posted: 4/28/2004 1:29:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2004 1:31:03 PM EDT by Carbine_Man]
As some of you know, I went about building a very lightweight rifle over on B-I-Y. Not on the scale of master Tyrod, but the best I could without buying a milling machine and lathe. My first mistake was buying a Vulcan Arms Carbon Fiber/Aramid stripped upper receiver. I mated that to a Bushmaster Superlight barrel. It went together well. Originally, I used an Eagle Arms lower.

Then my troubles began. I took it to the range, and put 200 rounds of Wolf and Lake City through it. It ran flawlessly.

I must be doing something wrong. I should never have bought that Vulcan upper receiver, because as everyone knows, Vulcan Arms only makes junky stuff. But my consternation at this rash of reliability stayed with me for days.

Over time, I became tempted beyond what any reasonable AR-addict can stand. I blame Tyrod for this. His evil intentions to build a one-pound AR15 are beyond sanity. I threw off all the good sound advice I've heard. I should have listened, should have pondered well the voice of those more knowledgable than me. I bought a Vulcan Arms lower! Blast you Tyrod! Little did I know the trouble headed my way. I put it together, and it was deceptively easy. It even looks nice, and weighs around four and a half pounds:



Well, I got what I deserved. Today was a beautiful Carolina day and I snuck out of work early and over to the range. But this evil Vulcan upper-and-lower lightweight failed! Well, that is, it failed to fail, failed to be unreliable, failed to be anything but trouble-free, too-much-fun shooting. I ran 200 rounds of mostly Lake City (plus a little Wolf) through it using five USGI mags. I even rapid fired a mag full, thnking surely it would blow up. But it failed miserably to screw-up the way I expected.

Now I'm in big trouble. This evil Vulcan carbine runs like a top and handles like a dream. I like it so much, I can't keep my hands off it. What am I going to do?

C_M

Link Posted: 4/28/2004 1:30:56 PM EDT
Sweet!
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 1:36:15 PM EDT
Hold on loosly, but don't let go.

Hey, do you have a riser rail on that upper or is that just the flat top? It seems a little high to be the standard flat top height.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 1:43:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Hey, do you have a riser rail on that upper or is that just the flat top?

Its an ARMS #38 standard length. Works better with the OKO. The flip-up rear sight co-witnesses with it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:01:23 PM EDT
Who sells the Vulcan uppers & lowers ? How much ?
I would like to give the super light weight thing a shot !
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:01:32 PM EDT
Oh I get it. Sarcasm

Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:11:36 PM EDT
I'd like to see you actually do some torture testing with it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:28:41 PM EDT
Go buy some lottery tickets, quick!
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 2:34:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2004 2:35:38 PM EDT by Carbine_Man]

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
I'd like to see you actually do some torture testing with it.

That's a good idea. I tell you what, you write a list of things I should do to it, with one condition: I can't do anything worse than what the US Army would.

In other words, I won't bury it in mud, freeze it in an ice block, run over it with a truck. Those are stunts. No reasonable person does this to their guns. So you suggest something, and I'll do it. Just send me a case of Lake City for any shooting that must be done.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 3:23:25 PM EDT
Carbine_Man, your a bastard

You got my heart going there for a second. I've been following what you and Tyrod have been building and just ordered my Vulcan uppers and a lightweight bushy barrel. Then you had to go and tell me you'd made a BAD MISTAKE. At least you were just joking........so the project continues!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 6:02:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
Carbine_Man, your a bastard

You got my heart going there for a second. I've been following what you and Tyrod have been building and just ordered my Vulcan uppers and a lightweight bushy barrel. Then you had to go and tell me you'd made a BAD MISTAKE. At least you were just joking........so the project continues!!!!!!!!!

MWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!

Press onward! Do good work, and next time remember that the contraction of "you are" is spelled you're not your.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 6:05:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2004 6:09:24 PM EDT by Slumlord]

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By Slumlord:
Carbine_Man, your a bastard

You got my heart going there for a second. I've been following what you and Tyrod have been building and just ordered my Vulcan uppers and a lightweight bushy barrel. Then you had to go and tell me you'd made a BAD MISTAKE. At least you were just joking........so the project continues!!!!!!!!!

MWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!

Press onward! Do good work, and next time remember that the contraction of "you are" is spelled you're not your.



Ah man, a spelling Nazi too, come on man YOU'RE killing me. But at least between the 2 of you, I have some good blueprints to follow.

BTW, why did you put the riser on the upper? My changes at this point are just a railed gas block up front, no sight, a hogue free float handguard and only an Eotech for sights. We'll see it may change still. Other than that you built the rifle I had in mind. Damn fine looking rifle. How is the color match between the upper and lower?
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 6:07:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2004 6:08:03 PM EDT by RAMBOSKY]
"Nothing could be finer than shooting in Carolina in the morrrrrrrning......"
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 7:58:06 PM EDT
Is anyone going to ever post the pricem and where they bought these receivers from?!?!?!?!
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 8:03:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Is anyone going to ever post the pricem and where they bought these receivers from?!?!?!?!


Here you go However I bought my lowers at a funshow in Houston last weekend.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 8:48:00 PM EDT
Do I have to beg to know how much you paid?
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 11:06:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Do I have to beg to know how much you paid?



try here www.vulcanarms.com

Carbine_Man you're just gonna have to endure the bad luck. Buck up and grin and bear it like a man.
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 11:17:29 PM EDT
Can you give us a break down of how much$$$ you have invested?
Then put a scope on it and shoot for groups at 100yrds (just curious)?

PLEASE?
Link Posted: 4/28/2004 11:43:06 PM EDT
even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 7:12:24 AM EDT
The upper and lower receiver were $56 each direct from Vulcan. I don't know why they gave me a discount off the $80 list price that you can find HERE. The Vulcan Arms parts are:
  • AV15-200 lower receiver, carbon/aramid $80
  • AV15-220 flat top upper receiver, carbon/aramid $80
The barrel is a Bushmaster Superlight for around $210, and the ACE Ultralight stock for ~$90. Innards are Colt, $55 from J&T. ARMS #38 was installed to provide a backup rear sight with a higher rail to accommodate the OKO.

Link Posted: 4/29/2004 7:19:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gj:
Then put a scope on it and shoot for groups at 100yrds (just curious)?

The Vulcan upper flexes a little. I wouldn't use it for a scoped rifle. When I had it out yesterday I was shooting all thirty (30) shots into a 2.5" circle at 50 yards. That's leaning on my elbows on a bench, no sandbags or anything like that, and using a red dot. For this kind of rifle I don't particularly care whether it prints sub-MOA groups.

C_M
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 7:34:17 AM EDT
Since I'm in such a post-whore chatty mood...

This business of how easy to clean these parts are is worth noting again. I cleaned the rifle last night and found that the only crud in the lower was on the hammer face. There just wasn't anything else to wipe off in the lower. And inside the upper was fairly clean, it just took a little wiping with a shop rag to make it look like it had never been fired. It makes me think that the standard finish on steel or aluminum AR parts acts like a crud magnet. The slippery surface of the Vulcan parts just doesn't collect sooty stuff.

And I don't get a dime from Vulcan for writing this!

And they're still a pain-in-the neck to deal with.

C_M
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 9:16:03 AM EDT
Vulcan Arms aka Hesse Arms?[/size=1]
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 1:41:19 PM EDT
Why save a few bucks and still pay the same price? The forged lower is $100+shipping, The cheapest lower parts kit olympic arms $48 +shipping, the cheapest stock you can get car stock from tapco $30 + shipping thats still arround $210 Now you cant put a car stock on it so you need a fixed stock Which will cost more than $30.

Why the hell not just buy one complete?

I got somewhat of a discount (because of a large order) but I got complete bushy lowers for $240 each.
Link Posted: 4/29/2004 1:51:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
Then my troubles began. I took it to the range, and put 200 rounds of Wolf and Lake City through it. It ran flawlessly.

I must be doing something wrong. I should never have bought that Vulcan upper receiver, because as everyone knows, Vulcan Arms only makes junky stuff. But my consternation at this rash of reliability stayed with me for days.

Now I'm in big trouble. This evil Vulcan carbine runs like a top and handles like a dream. I like it so much, I can't keep my hands off it. What am I going to do?

C_M




Sooo, have you put more than 200 rounds through your gun yet? let us know when you get up around the 10,000 mark, and tell us about the reliability then.


This business of how easy to clean these parts are is worth noting again. I cleaned the rifle last night and found that the only crud in the lower was on the hammer face. There just wasn't anything else to wipe off in the lower. And inside the upper was fairly clean, it just took a little wiping with a shop rag to make it look like it had never been fired. It makes me think that the standard finish on steel or aluminum AR parts acts like a crud magnet. The slippery surface of the Vulcan parts just doesn't collect sooty stuff.


?
my guns don't even look dirty when i put 200 rounds through them. have you put more than that through it yet?

your vulcan may very well be a reliable gun, but we (and you) will never know that with only 200 rounds through it.


Link Posted: 5/3/2004 8:16:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 8:18:29 AM EDT by Trey-W]

Originally Posted By JustL00king:
Why save a few bucks and still pay the same price? The forged lower is $100+shipping, The cheapest lower parts kit olympic arms $48 +shipping, the cheapest stock you can get car stock from tapco $30 + shipping thats still arround $210 Now you cant put a car stock on it so you need a fixed stock Which will cost more than $30.

Why the hell not just buy one complete?

I got somewhat of a discount (because of a large order) but I got complete bushy lowers for $240 each.



I guess owning a 4.5 pound rifle and saving $76 dollars for the lower (using your $210 amount)never crossed your mind did it?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 9:40:34 AM EDT
FWIW, I don't reply to people who obviously don't read. C_M
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 11:25:37 AM EDT
A little OT, but can you post a pic through the sites of the OKO cowitnessing? I would love to see how it looks since I have a #38 as well.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 12:49:19 PM EDT
Carbine, why do you have the rail riser for the OKO? does it not co-witness with it? or is there some other reason?

I am interested in an OKO and was wondering about this information.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 6:35:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 6:43:59 PM EDT by Carbine_Man]
I apologize, I was feeling kinda snippy this morning. I'll try to answer various questions.

I didn't build this rifle to win the "cheapest AR" contest. I built it to be very, very light. It just happens that the Vulcan receivers are also cheap. But this is my fourth AR build and I was experimenting. I wanted to build a light gun without exorting to machining or extreme customization (other than buying light parts.)

I didn't build this rifle to be a survival weapon, or a go-to gun, or a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI weapon. I built it to be very, very light. I have other rifles with standard forged aluminum upper and lower receivers that are my go-to guns. I built this one to be light, and I accepted the fact that it can't be expected to last forever if I treat it like a shovel. Life is full of compromises, and I don't mind treating this rifle the same way I treat all my firearms (i.e. I take care of them and don't abuse them.)

The point of the topic wasn't to prove that Vulcan's are indestructible. I was only having fun with guys that keep repeating the same old yarns over and over, without trying to see if there's any truth to them. All you ever hear about Vulcan/Hesse is that they build crummy guns with a crummy warranty. I and others have been at least willing to try the receivers, and we've found that they seem to work. That's all. No big deal. I still like my Bushmaster, Eagle Arms and Rock River rifles. Sometimes it seems like you can try to make a simple point, and some folks just don't (or won't) get it.

I used the ARMS #38 because I wanted to have both iron sights and a red dot, the OKO. I like the OKO, and I own two. I tried a flip-up rear sight with no rail plus the OKO, and found that the OKO was low. If I set it up like this, and held my eye so the dot was centered in the ring, the dot was in the middle of the front sight. By putting it up on the rail, the OKO dot clears the post by about 1/4". At the same time, if I flip up the iron sights and sight through them with the red dot on, the red dot sits precisely on the center of the front sight (cowitnessing.) I could have just left the OKO on the receiver and looked through the upper part of the ring to clear the post, but it bothered me. I built it to suit my taste, so I used the #38, and I am pleased with the sight picture, the cowitnessing, and the backup iron sights.

C_M
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 6:42:59 PM EDT
I have heard the Hesse/Vulcan receivers are actually pretty good. I think the problem with Hesse is in assembly and skimping on parts for the lower and generally not giving a rat's ass when you report something wrong to them. I think the thing to remeber here is that Carbine_Man built the rifle himslef using Hesse/Vulcan receivers and didn't use a Hesse LPK or any other parts from Hesse.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 8:21:38 PM EDT


Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
As some of you know, My first mistake was buying a Vulcan Arms Carbon Fiber/Aramid stripped upper receiver. I mated that to a Bushmaster Superlight barrel. It went together well. I must be doing something wrong. I should never have bought that Vulcan upper receiver, because as everyone knows, Vulcan Arms only makes junky stuff.

Now I'm in big trouble. This evil Vulcan carbine runs like a top and handles like a dream. I like it so much, I can't keep my hands off it. What am I going to do?

C_M



How bad does this really suckhttp://home.earthlink.net/~bogie7177/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mvc-017s.jpg
Glad to see im not the only one with great results against what others say.
Looks real good C_M
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 9:02:54 PM EDT
My Vulcan upper recievers arrived today. When they are put together with the lowers there is no play at all. I couldn't get them to wiggle even trying. That even without pins yet. These recievers may not be the best out there. Certainly aren't the most popular, but some of us here like Carbine_Man said, just wanted to try something new and light. Maybe it will work for 10,000+ rounds maybe not, but its our money to throw away. So be it. But for now, at least I'm planning on having some fun building a rifle that weighs about as much as a heavy pistol.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 6:25:00 AM EDT
I met a guy at the rang with a Hesse(Vulcan) that was running full auto even after letting off the triger! He had to run the mag dry or hoped it jammed. Well upon further inspection the internal parts in the lower were junk and the bold carrier key was loose and would not stay tight. I replaced the triger group in the lower with some DPMS parts and it ran fine after that. I also recommended that he replace the bolt carrier but I don't know if he ever did that. Long story short I didn't see anything worng with the upper/lower just the part in them.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 7:39:39 AM EDT
Good for you Carbine_Man.
If you like it, and it runs well, that's all that matters.
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