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Posted: 9/12/2005 4:30:12 AM EDT
[#1]
I sell both, but ONLY use the Vortex. To the best of my knowledge, it is the ONLY FS that has been fielded (besides the A2). It reduces 99% off flash (even on FA) and adds a slight accuracy increase. C4 www.GRTactical.com |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 4:38:23 AM EDT
[#2]
I need to purchase a crush washer to install it, correct?
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Posted: 9/12/2005 4:48:45 AM EDT
[#3]
No. The Vortex just screws on, no timing is necessary.
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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:17:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Get a hose clamp if you go with the Vortex. The will help keep the prongs from spreading out!
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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:38:43 AM EDT
[#5]
On the GEN I/II's I would say yes. That is no longer the case and hasn't been for over 2 years. C4 |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:40:27 AM EDT
[#6]
The Phantom will get more votes because it is cheaper. The Vortex is the best in function, followed by the Phantom. I prefer Vortex myself.
As far as the tines spreading, even my modified ones haven't spread yet, so I think that issue has been put to bed. I'd buy from Grant without hesitation. |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 6:42:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Thanks, guys. I'm following Grant & Mongo.
Grant, look for my order today. Do you have a 800 number for phone orders? I don't trust doing credit cards over the internet. |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 6:56:01 AM EDT
[#8]
grant has a contact# at his site.
i like the phantom for its no snag design but like the the vortex just as much regardless. im 50/50  i do agree on grant being the man to go to! |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 8:20:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks, eklikwhoa. Where in Texas are you? I'm in Dallas.
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Posted: 9/12/2005 8:21:49 AM EDT
[#10]
houston/the new new orleans
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Posted: 9/12/2005 8:49:20 AM EDT
[#11]
No 800 #, but if you IM me your phone number, I will call you! C4 |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 3:34:01 PM EDT
[#12]
I have to chime in with a vote for the 5C2 Phantom. I do a good bit of prone shooting and I prefer the closed bottom. Just my .02. The Vortex is certainly a fine product to say the least.
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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:28:03 PM EDT
[#13]
I went with the Phantom flash suppressor on my LMT 16" M-4 barreled upper and the lower cost compared to the Vortex had nothing to do with my decision. The edge in effectiveness of the Vortex is insignificant for all practical purposes and I didn't want an open prong design. If you do all your shooting on a range and aren't out "in the bush" then the Vortex is fine. There was a reason why the military dropped the open prong flash suppressor on the original M-16 and went to a closed prong design on subsequent versions.
BTW, Grant is a great dealer to do business with. ________________________________________________________________ The slippery slope to tyranny begins with the first exclusion of any class of persons within the community whose rights may be trampled. — Harry V. Jaffa |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:33:27 PM EDT
[#14]
C4 wrote:
I sell both, but ONLY use the Vortex. To the best of my knowledge, it is the ONLY FS that has been fielded (besides the A2). It reduces 99% off flash (even on FA) and adds a slight accuracy increase. C4: I am curious about how it adds to accuracy. I was considering adding one to my 24 in SS Bushmaster Super Varmit barrel. Thanks for the info. Guz |
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Posted: 9/12/2005 6:15:11 PM EDT
[#15]
I love my vortex !!!!
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Posted: 9/12/2005 6:16:34 PM EDT
[#16]
FYI, the US and Canadian Military buy the Vortex. Thanks for the plug! C4 |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 6:49:53 AM EDT
[#17]
================== Testing by ARDEC in March, 2002 on the Vortex (pre-G4 configuration) found that when affixed to the test M16A2 accuracy was indeed enhanced measurably over the other tested units. These test results were later corroborated in subsequent live fire testing at APG on both the M4/M16 and M249 in 2003. In the case of the M249, the delta between the OEM FH and the Vortex (then G4 & G5) were dramatic in the accuracy department and were noted on the test report. Earlier this year as part of the on going market survey of suppressors and related flash suppressor/interface systems, the Vortex (now G6A2 and MK46/M249 designs) again eclipsed all other contenders in the flash attenuation and accuracy departments. Now to answer your question of "why?". Let it suffice to say that exiting propellant gasses are stabilized uniformily behind the projectile as it leaves the barrel. It's honestly, no more complex than that. Now as for your 24" SS Bushmaster, I would guarantee an accuracy enhancement -- the factory doesn't either, BTW. However, in testing conducted last year at JRTC on a number of modified M-24 SWSs, accuracy was enhanced with the addition of the AR-10 Vortex (now the suppressor-capable ARSR-700 model). This last unit has just been delivered to the Ranger Regiment, BTW for the same application. I hope this helps. P.S. Grant is quite correct in stating that the US (USA, USN, and soon USAF) and the Canadian Forces (CF) both now use the Vortex officially. It is also standard issue for the US Department of Energy (DOE). Israel will soon be added to the list for their converted M14s. |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 8:24:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Dallas is the not far behind, I got the Phantom perm attached to a BM 14.5, wished I'd spent the $$$ for the Vortex. Grant all the way, super fast shipping |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 8:52:18 AM EDT
[#19]
================ The real beauty of the M16 family is that you can always fix it. Heck, get a good 16" midlength (Lord knows he can get you any flavour) and a G6A2 Vortex from Grant and you've squared away. I went same route a year or so ago. |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 10:03:19 AM EDT
[#20]
Does anyone remember the title or author of the thread that had photos of different flash suppressors in use?
TIA. Seydou |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 10:06:58 AM EDT
[#21]
rsilvers - here |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 10:21:05 AM EDT
[#22]
Thanks Mongo.
Seydou |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 11:14:43 AM EDT
[#23]
I have both the Phantom model 5C1 flat front end and the 5C2 serrated front end for my tactical carbine and rifle.
For my future target rifle build I might try the Vortex FS. Both of them are top performers. C4iGrant is a great seller here and another good sources would be Bravo Company and Global Tactical Supply. Good luck. |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 12:03:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Would it need some blue threadlock to keep it from moving? |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 12:26:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Negative. It is designed to be self-tightening. Seydou |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 12:29:57 PM EDT
[#26]
+1 hand tight should be all it needs |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 12:54:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Looks as thought the decision has been made already, but I will add that I use a Phantom at night and virtually eliminates the muzzle flash. Not saying it is better, but that I'm very pleased with its performance.
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Posted: 9/13/2005 1:18:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Both the Vortex & the YHM Phantom's do a superb job so you won't go wrong with either one. Aside from cost, another possible advantage for the Phantom is the enclosed tines reduce the risk of snagging.
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Posted: 9/13/2005 3:39:39 PM EDT
[#29]
=============== The supposed advantage of the closed in flash hider has not been substantiated by combat ops in OEF and OIF. ARDEC has just completed an on-the-ground survey of the CENTCOM AOR and determined that the Vortex is simply the best thing out there. Snagging is simply a non-issue amongst troops and commanders interviewed. This is further corroborated by recent testing at APG in support of the family of Muzzle Brakes/Flash Hiders and suppressors live fire market survey. Part of the testing -- something I have not seen discussed here, is the fact that the field testing has been conducted at battlefield ranges under DVO (Direct View Optics - DVO), Image Intensifiers - I2 and Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR)/Thermal Imagers. Under those conditions and with those devices, the Vortex clearly eclipses anything else on the planet looked at by the Armed Forces of the United States and Canada. Also, another advantage of the Vortex is enhancement of accuracy, especially on M249s and M240s. Keep in mind too, that the Vortexes is sound suppressor capable. This has not escaped observation by DoD. Yet another advantage that has not escaped noticed by TACOM/ARDEC is the extremely robust BFA that SEI has developed that works on the M4, M16 and all M249 variants. Further proof of this observation will be promulgated in the forthcoming BAA for the new family of suppressors and flash suppressors in which the Vortex will be the objective standard. Long winded, I know, but that is the current situation. Having said that, if you're a civilian or even a cop I suppose your Phantom will suit you just fine. It is a great product, no question. However, and that's a BIG however, if you're a Servicemember -- the Vortex for your M4/16, M249/Para, M14, M14 and now the M2HB is the only solution. |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 3:48:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Thanks Mach6.
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Posted: 9/13/2005 5:17:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Gosh I just hate when folks mix facts with fiction!  Thanks for the info....C4 |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 6:15:50 PM EDT
[#32]
So you think that the Vortex is snag free? There are couple of folks down here (& elsewhere) who have stated otherwise. Nowhere was I challenging the flash suppression effectiveness of the Vortex so lets stick to the facts. Edited to further clarify: I'm not denouncing the Vortex, but do you feel it's a 100% snag free design? |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 7:13:41 PM EDT
[#33]
============ Read thread carefully. To wit, within operational context of OIF and OEF (i.e. the terrain at hand) there have been no reports of the design snagging. Those are the facts. It is also worth noting that very high-speed boys who get their excellent uppers from Grant invariably specify the combat proven Vortex. 'Nuff said. |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 7:14:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Wasn't talking to you. There also folks that feel that the 5.56 is equal to a .22 and they aren't right either. Since you want t to stick with the facts, look at the Military findings on the Vortex (posted above by Mach). Next question..... C4 |
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Posted: 9/13/2005 8:33:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Well I guess the Vortex is better, the Gov't says so, and I read about it on the internet.
Two of the most reliable sources of information known to mankind. 
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Posted: 9/14/2005 3:10:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Thank you everyone, and a kudos to mach6. I'm sold on the Vortex, and sending an order in to Grant. Why buy chopped beef when you really want Prime Rib? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 3:27:45 AM EDT
[#37]
You also heard it from a dealer that runs them on EVERYONE one of his AR's and DOES sell the Phantom. C4 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:16:37 AM EDT
[#38]
The Vortex makes an annoying ring every shot. The vortex kicks up dust in the prone. The non snagging by troops (although I think snagging is a non issue) could be explained by the fact there is no vegetation in the desert to snag on. Noone can purchase a suppressor for the Vortex so its a non issue and noone has one in this forum. The Vortex has not, in my experience, been any better at reducing flash than a Phantom. The Vortex is more expensive. Id like to see the results of the military tests of the Phantom against the Vortex before I believe something some says on the internet.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:27:45 AM EDT
[#39]
I shoot prone and never noticed any dust issues. I have also never gotten mine snagged on anything. The Vortex and Phantom reduce flash about the same, but the phantom doesn't improve accuracy. Also, negative on the "no suppressor & Vortex work together" www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=241051 MACH6 has been involved in the .Mil testing and I know for a FACT that many groups within our Military and Canadian Military are running them. They could have any FS they want and chose the Vortex. C4 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:46:56 AM EDT
[#40]
Do you know for a fact the Phantom was involved in .mil testing against the Vortex? Where can we get the results of that testing? I would not call having half the threads hanging off a HALO a good case for suppressor comapability and the fact is either the Vortex or the Phantom will work on a HALO or Troy suppressor etc. In the other thread AK_Mike said something about the Vortex doing something to be compatable with the Surefire suppressor? The surefire suppressor has an integrated A2 flash hider. What was the comment concerning? I could care less what the military is using as they usually have inferior equipment about half the time. If someone could provide some concrete reasons the Vortex is better Id buy one but so far all I hear is anecdotes about improved accuracy which is so far unproven and not even claimed by the company in its advertising. I have head people add and remove the Vortex with zero change in accuracy so it really does nothing. Vortex is NOT better at reducing flash and you can see that in Mr Silvers testing. It does NOT improve accuracy as reported by some people and it does in others. Id call that a spurios result at best. You cant just say it improves accuracy and that become a fact because you say so. Show me some kind of scientific study because I have used a couple Vortexes and noticed ZERO improvement in accuracy. Hell, I had a phantom on a 14.5" Bushy M4 that did 1 MOA all day long. The Phantom certainly does not DEGRADE accuracy but I could not say it increased it either. The Vortex DOES rings annoyingly and costs more and weighs more. I cant find any benefits. Its no more compatible with suppressors, and if its supposed to be hand tight only its actually less comaptable with Troy suppressors as it needs to be torqued down to hold the suppressor mount in place. The only thing anyone has presented as a benefit that can be confirmed is it MAY be used by the military so collectors who want milspec stuff for hobbiest pursuits. If there is some varaint of the Surefire mount that uses the Vortex flash hider then Id buy one. Other than that the Phantom seems to be the logical choice. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:52:40 AM EDT
[#41]
You made the statemen that the Vortex couldn't be used with ANY suppressors. I proved you wrong. I have done my own tests where I remove the Vortex and shoot groups with it and without it. I have noticed improved accuracy. I know that NAG has done the same thing and has gotten the same results. The military has also found this to be true and is why they chose it. You are correct that the Military does usually get crappy gear, but this is not the case for the groups that chose the Vortex. If you have a phantom then stick with it. If your looking to purchase your first FS then look at the Vortex. C4 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 9:28:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Im actually doing a new build right now and am not married to any flash hider. If I could justify the Vortex Id get it. I think I am going to do a poll to see how many people have done an accuracy testing with the Vortex in another thread. If the majority of the people have seen increased accuracy I will probably go ahead and buy it.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 9:34:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Roger. I imagine that most folks have not done any accuracy testing (shooting group with an A2 and then installing the Vortex and shooting a group) as most don't know that the Vortex has this capability. C4 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:19:46 AM EDT
[#44]
If you're Military or LEO then the Vortex MAY be better suited for your needs but for everyone else they won't be outgunned with a Phantom. As for the snag issue, that's all a matter of the user's environment. If you don't HAVE TO HAVE the Vortex but still want equal flash suppression (+/- a fraction) then here is where the Phantom's become more appealing: $45.00 for the Vortex and you got a better flash suppressor With that same $45.00 you can pick up a Phantom 28/5C1/5C2 and use they money you saved to get any of the following: -- 8+ boxes of ammo to burn at the range to become a better shooter -- two more new 30rd. AR mags -- 10 Magpul enhanced followers to ensure your mags are reliable -- 7ct. Magpuls or a 3ct. pack of Ranger plates -- another Phantom for your next rifle The list could go on, but my point is that all of the above can do more good then simply getting a Vortex. For those that NEED the Vortex or money is of no concern, I fully understand and am sure you'll be happy with it! |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:41:13 AM EDT
[#45]
===================== Pricing argument is very interesting. Germane, only if you are a civilian retail consumer. However, you do realize the difference between MSRP and USG/FMS pricing, right? Think Uncle and his friends have to pay MSRP or even anything close to Dealer prices when they buy these devices in large numbers as they have been and are continuing to do? Think Colt-Diemaco Canada or FMS customers pay retail for these items, their associated SEI "DC" rebuildable sound suppressors and BFA's that are now in their catalog? The contrarian fiscal argument becomes should be rather moot at this point. As to "money being of no conern....", sorry, that dog won't hunt. The USG (and even more so his friends) is/are very price sensitive and moreover, uses a Best Value Model model, especially in the field of small arms. I have neither the time nor the inclination to offer a dissertation on what that means. Put another way and in simplistic terms, the dollar amount at initial acquisition is only a single factor, not the sole determinant. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 12:30:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Of course I'm aware of the bulk discounts given to govt. & LE agencies, my discussion isn't even aimed at that. However, many LEO & military personnel have to purchase their own gear and don't have access to such discounts. I can't even begin to tell you how many of our sales have been related to troops going over seas trying to round up the items they need to keep them safe as possible. LE purchasing here is no different either, many Dept. & Officers have budgets they have to work around. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 2:20:07 PM EDT
[#47]
The numbers I see getting tossed around on this board usually say the Vortex suppresses 99% of the flash, where the Phantom is rated at 97-98%.
So the Vortex may be marginally better than the Phantom as a flash suppressor. To me, it doesn't justify a cost of almost twice the Phantom. And the 5C2 Phantom has a closed front and bottom, so potential dust signature and snagging issues are eliminated, whether they are relevant issues or not. Someting that cannot be said about the Vortex. And I'd really like to hear some real life stories where someone had a Phantom on their weapon and it didn't work as required. As to the accuracy enhancement question, I believe it probably has more to do with changing barrel harmonics like the Browning BOSS System does. Anytime you change the harmonics of the barrel, be it hanging weight off the end or by shortening it, it will have an unpredictable effect on accuracy.
You over estimate your powers of persuasion over me.  And don't take that the wrong way Grant, your knowledge and opinion are greatly appreciated, but ultimately the decision on which to buy boils down to what I want, not what someone else thinks I need. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 2:24:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Never was trying to get you to buy one or the other. My profit margins are vitrually the same with either so buy whatever you like! I was simply stating that I can have ANY THING I WANT and I choose the Vortex. ARFCOM members should pay attention to what some of the Industry Partners/Dealers put on their personal weapons (as it will tell you what they think is the best products on the market). C4 |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 3:26:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Well I have a thread running in the AR15 section and so far 3 out of 4 people tried to see if the Vortex was more accurate than a naked barrel and it was no more accurate. The one who said he got positive results said he got equal accuracy if he used a KAC (probably due to the higer quaity machining compared to A2)
So one person says A2 hinders accuracy and every one else including that poster say the VOrtex has no effect on accuary in their testing. Perhaps comparison to an A2 is where they get the accuracy claim for the Vortex? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 4:00:40 PM EDT
[#50]
I imagine that the Military compared the Vortex to the A2. C4 |
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