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Posted: 10/22/2004 8:34:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Pics?
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Posted: 10/22/2004 8:51:22 PM EDT
[#2]
no pics right now and no way to post them currently.
I just received it today and got home from work about 2300 tonight. I was really looking forward to this tonight when I got home....  ETA it would appear that the open end at the muzzle is 1mm wider than the more proximal portion of the FH where it screws on. Seems rather obvious perhaps and I cannot imagine that Ken wouldn't have checked for fit before perm installing but the fact remains that this is not going to take a bayo without modification. |
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Posted: 10/23/2004 4:11:57 AM EDT
[#3]
I ordered a 6920 with the identical barrel setup from SAW; havent received it yet though. Boy I hope lightning doesn't strike the same place twice!
Please keep us updated on what happens. hock.gif |
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Posted: 10/23/2004 4:44:23 AM EDT
[#4]
so vortex makes a 1.5" FS?
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Posted: 10/23/2004 4:54:22 AM EDT
[#5]
drjarhead,
You may have gotten one of the Vortexes with the spreading tines problem. There were some that had a problem with soft metal/bad design that had that problem. Mine is an earlier Vortex that I got on a 14.5' barrel from BM and the bayonet fits fine...even after a few thousand rounds. Do a search and see if you can find the thread on the Vortex problem. It was discussed at length here in the past. |
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Posted: 10/23/2004 5:14:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Thanks KBL. I am aware of the problem. But I cna't imagine that Ken wouldn't know about it and have made sure he has proper Vortexes. It also hasn't been shot other than to test fire I imagine and I can't see any way it would have opened up after just a few rounds. We'll see what they say. I don't have a caliper or mic to check it accurately but eyeballing it with a ruler I'd say there is a 1mm difference over the length of the FH. At this point I wish SAW installed phantoms. 
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Posted: 10/23/2004 7:19:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Anyone out there have similar problem?
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Posted: 10/23/2004 7:32:05 PM EDT
[#8]
the two bayo's I have tried both fit over my Vortex. It is an older one though, I think the G4.
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Posted: 10/23/2004 7:37:32 PM EDT
[#9]
There is a trick to mount a bayonet I learned of how to make it work when I got my Vortex.
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Posted: 10/23/2004 7:58:44 PM EDT
[#10]
What kind of bayo are you using?
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Posted: 10/23/2004 8:34:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Trick is?
I tried the M9, Colt Eickhorn-Solingen, and a mil issue bayo. None mount. I get a sense I could force it if I really tried but I am not interested in damaging the FH nor in getting the bayo stuck on there. I have never heard anything about any trick to it but I've never had a vortex before either. A2s, bilock, phantoms, but no vortex. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 5:05:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Yea, what is the trick M4-aiming....?
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:35:43 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:42:52 AM EDT
[#14]
I noticed something funny today.
My ARM with a 5" knife in hand has the reach of a M4 with a bayonet.... |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:46:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Weird. Once upon a time I could swear I had the same problem, but as this pic shows, I dont any longer.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 9:56:12 AM EDT
[#16]
More info.... |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 2:37:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Got in touch with them today and was told they do not view it as a problem, that the vortex is flared on the end and that the bayo fits over the proximal portion of the FH but not the end. They have never realized this apparently as no one else puts a bayo on them. WTF
 Tina is going to call me back and I will get this rectified one way or another. BUT::::If you are going to have them perm install a vortex I would think hard about changin your order. They will install phantoms but do not keep them in stock. Spread the word guys. I think we need to spread the word so that this doesn't happen to others. This upper was $1150 and it is not satisfactory. Though I haven't pulled it out of the wrapper, the rest of the upper looks awesome so I wouldn't discourage you from ordering from them but consider this a heads up. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 4:13:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Thats not correct. The vortex is the same diameter all the way up. There were some that were substandard but all that I've ever heard of were the old style. I had one. it was mushrooming out at the tines. I sent it back to Smith Enterprises and it was replaced with no hassle. the new ones, like the one pictured, are not supposed to have this problem and this one has no problem fitting a bayonet. I never put one on it until this subject came up several months ago and I snapped this picture. The bottom line is they owe you another vortex. Dont take my word for it though, call Smith enterprises and ask them. They will tell you what diameter their vortexes are made.  |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 4:38:35 PM EDT
[#19]
I hear ya FRO.
Just relaying what they are saying. Not sure what make they are using and I will post pics one of these nights. I have to renew my membership and have been lax in doing so. No question though that they are not interested in fixing this problem and a new Colt bbl and vortex are expensive. I know they are a small, privately owned operation and don't want to swallow the loss but I have no use for an $1150 paperweight. And that's what this would be. I have PLENTY of uppers. PLENTY(13 or so). Several 16, 20, 11.5, 14.5 on an SBR, etc. This was ordered with a specific purpose in mind and not being able to fit a bayo negates the reason for having a perm fixed FH on a 14.5" upper in the first place. Kind of aggravating as I said but I will deal with it one way or another. Maybe we can work something out....  I know others are ordering the same set up though and I know most of us here will not be happy if they get the same. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 4:45:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Sorry to get in on this late, but I had the same problem. I bought a Smith Ent. Vortex FS directly from Smith Ent. It is definantly a no-go situation with my M9. Good thing for me is its not permanantly attached.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 6:48:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Well, the vortex is the least of my problems as it is perm affixed to an $1100 upper. If I could have it fixed for $45 I'd be thrilled right now. I believe this to be a design flaw by Smith Enterprises FWIW and shot them an email about it. I will see what they say. Perhaps it is not even a SE FH as I can find no markings on it to verify make. Sure seems like you'd make sure that it functions before pinning and welding the damn thing... I got a feeling there are going to be more than a few PO'd customers and I cannot believe no one else has put a bayo over the thing. Or tried to, I should say... Grrrrrrrr
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:46:40 PM EDT
[#22]
drjarhead,
I hope things work out for you. Good luck. I hope Smith seriously address this problem and resolve it for you. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:48:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Even though I think I will get a 14.5" w/permanent FS eventually, all you guys who say "Uh, who cares, when will I ever want to remove the FS?" take note!
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:58:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Thanks. Smith can't really do much for me here, I am afraid, but maybe they can resolve this before some of the rest of you are screwed and save themselves some problems, their reputation, and lost future revenue. Hopefully, SAW will also look into this, help solve the problem and prevent pissing other customers off. In the long run maybe it will work out okay. I will get my money back, I can just about assure you of that. 
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Posted: 10/25/2004 10:20:20 PM EDT
[#25]
A few guys I know ran into the same problem, w/Smith Vortex.....either they were out of spec, but just a few had that problem.
Most were solved with light sanding on the bayonet ring.....but keep in mind that if you switch to a Phantom, you may now have an M9 that rattles when resting on the flash hider. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:58:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Yeah, and I wouldn't do that to my M9--got plenty of other bayos that didn't cost as much. In my case I suspect that it would take more than light sanding, probably light dremeling.  At least that is the way it looks to me. I hope Smith Enterprise gets back to me about this so I can update everyone on the situation. Like I said, I know most of you wouldn't be happy with this and I doubt anyone would expect it. A FH for an AR should fit a bayo, don't you think? I've got a feeling the 'smith is going to give me the big blow off. Too bad, I like buying from them, albeit how expensive they are. At least I can get what I want (Well, up until now anyway) but if i have to go thru my CC Co. i doubt that I'll be doing much biz with them in the future. Can't see swallowing $1150 though. If it were an easy inexpensive fix, no problem, but that is a little steep for me. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:04:09 AM EDT
[#27]
I am not understanding why you cannot get this fixed for $45? All you have to do is have a smith cut the Vortex off and reattach a Phantom or a Vortex that is the correct dia. Edited to add that if it was my upper I would send it back to SAW and get my money back or get it exchanged for one the works whether it has a Phantom or a Vortex. But that doesn't mean you couldn't get another FS mounted to the upper you already have. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:21:26 AM EDT
[#28]
I asked already and was told no.
That is the eventual course that this is taking it would seem but if they won't accept it back there are limited options at my disposal. I agree with what you are saying, just giving you the facts as the story unwinds. My initial purpose here was to see if I was overlooking something obvious though I thought that unlikely. Now it is to inform others so that they don't have the same problem. I would highly recommend that the builder inform their customers of this issue prior to getting alot of disgruntled customers going thru their CC Co. that could get very expensive. I have no axe to grind here. Just to say that this is all preventable. The bottom line is that if you are going to get a Vortex FH be aware that it will probably not fit a bayo. I will let you know what Smith Enterprises has to say as well as what SAW says on the matter. I was expecting a return phonecall from SAW but haven't gotten it yet. Not sure I am going to for that matter.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:46:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Sorry to heard about all your trouble. Nothing sucks worse than waiting for a new toy only to get it and find out something is wrong.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:59:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Yeah. It was a long wait too. Have a Colt lower with a magpul all ready to go, just waiting for the upper.... But I am way beyond the initial shock and dismay. Just don't want it to happen to other people and hopefully I can prevent that, at least for some, and maybe prevent some headaches for SAW as well. Thanks, JBritt. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 9:52:59 AM EDT
[#31]
Please excuse my ignorance but why do you even want to put a bayonet on your rifle??
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Posted: 10/26/2004 9:57:23 AM EDT
[#32]
Can't hold up a convenince store without one. Didn't you get the gangbanger's union memo? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 10:07:58 AM EDT
[#33]
My guess would be because a new Vortex is $50, plus the average to do this exact work runs at least another $50. But for another $100, he could probably get ADCO to fix it, and also to test out the new vortex with a Bayonet... unless he did go with the Phantom, which only costs about $25. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 10:25:38 AM EDT
[#34]
I would go with the phantom at this point but I wanted it done in a Colt finish, properly set up, etc. and for $1150 I don't think it is too much to ask that it be done properly or that they work with me to resolve this. They were supposed to get back to me about having it rebarreled with a phantom if I sent the upper and a new phantom back to them. Still waiting for them to get back. I went thru this outfit because I expected better workmanship and am willing to pay for it. But the point, again, is to inform the rest of you. I would hopefully expect the same from you. Take it for what it is worth. ETA that this is not going to be solved with another vortex. this apparently is the way they are being amnufactured now. I have emailed Smith Enterprises and will let you all know what they say. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:08:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Redfisher is going to post pics for me. Thanks bud!
Not sure how that will help but what the hell, it's worth a shot. Tina at SAW already told me that they checked their other vortexes and all are the same. They are flared at the end a little so while a bayo would fit well at the neck it will not make it over the prongs. "We do not view it as a problem." The alternatives are few: 1] grind down the ring on the bayo--would be loose when mounted and would involve damaging the bayo. 2]grind down the prongs on the vortex. Not a good idea as far as I am concerned and would require refinishing. 3]Return it -- I'll have to go thru my CC Co. as they have already pretty much told me it ain't their problem. My expectation for what will happen. My CC Co. will side with me. I have impecable credit..... 4] Send it off to have it redone at considerable expense and end up with a finish on the bbl that I do not want. SAW has already told me that they won't do it. 5]Rebbl with another FH--prob a phantom. Same deal... 6]Pay $1150 for a closet based paperweight. Not an option IMO. I was supposed to get a phonecall back but haven't and judging by their response so far I ain't holding my breath. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:12:51 PM EDT
[#36]
No, I moved out of Kali and they don't have my current address.  Ok, now seriously, why??? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:31:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Well as you can see from my low post count and long membership date, I dont post much. Here is my humble opinion. 1 and 2 are out. Its an expensive upper not something you seem you want to "adjust". No matter how good you get it, you wouldnt be happy. Every time you saw it you'd probably not like it very much. 3 is still an option. The bottom line is, you did not get what you paid for and they might not help you. They are not known around here for their customer service skills (SAW) They pretty much told everyone here to "stick it, they didnt need our business" It was a long and nasty thread. 4 and 5 are adding more cost to the situation but I dont know what you mean by, " finish on the bbl that I do not want. SAW has already told me that they won't do it." ADCO could remove that vortex and place another one on it without changing the finish at all. You probably would not know the vortex had been changed. They really do excellent work at a reasonable price. they did one for me for 75.00 ( not including the cost of the FS.) Also, I bet Smith Ent. will stand behind their product. They did for me. They are slow but reliable. 6 Is absolutly not an option. Shoot the piss outta that upper until the tines fall off!!. Its made for it. Drill holes in paper all day long but DONT make it a paper weight. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:33:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Sure, I'll play. But how about you answer a few of my questions first. 1]Why are you here? I mean on ar15.com? As opposed to moving back to Kali and workiing for Diane Feinstein? It is a pretty strange question, IMO, to be asking shortly after the death of the AWban, on a site dedicated to a mil style semiauto rifle, don't you think? Have you paid any attn to the purchases people here are making....? 2]Why are you pissing on my thread? I mean as opposed to getting laid, getting a life, getting bent? Nothing personal. Just a little question between friends. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:40:24 PM EDT
[#39]
I've got plenty of uppers, no shit. Plenty! Except for one, all are Colt. I ordered this with a specific plan in mind to include my TA-31, RASII, Magpul, etc. As it goes I would put it all on another and I know damn well the upper would just sit. Too much money for that. Thanks for the info about ADCO, that is really helpful and I appreciate it. I may run it by them. Was your job a refurb?????? Guys, we really need to get a decent source for Colt parts. RGUNS or this one? It just ain't cutting it and I am sold on Colt. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:49:59 PM EDT
[#40]
mine was a 6400C. I had ADCO remove the brake, shorten the barrel and perm. install my A2 FS.
Turn around was 7 days. Yes, its different than your project but they do all kinds of installs. It does not harm the finish. I'll take a closer pic when I can or you could just go to the ADCO forums in the industry section and look at the picture thread of their work. 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:51:51 PM EDT
[#41]
DOA I'ld bet you own a ricer, right? Want a Vette but really don't need 350 horses. If they just made a Vette with a four banger... |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:01:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Ok. Here are my answers. I moved to AR because that is what my wife wanted. She wanted to be closer to her family. All in all, its really not where I want to be, but if I make her happy, she makes me happy.  Im on ARF.com because I am a former US Marine who loves shooting guns, of all kinds. This is one of the best places to do that. I don't feel that I am pissing on your thread. Im asking a simple question. What's so hard about answering it? Yes, I do realize the AWB expired and that is a positive thing for everyone, not just the gunowners in the US. BTW, I never officially worked for her. Just met her at a few celeb parties and got to know how she thinks. She and I never got along and she is rather dismissive when put on the spot. Ok, how's about answering MY question now? 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:02:43 PM EDT
[#43]
BECAUSE I CAN! Edited to add...NOW THAT MY GOVERNMENT LETS ME... 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:06:19 PM EDT
[#44]
im not trying to troll...but who friggin cares. you going to bayonet anyone? the important thing is that you have the most effective flash supressor made. your flash signature is hidden. if you must stab someone close the extra 12 inches and do it by hand. sounds like a non-issue to me.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:09:06 PM EDT
[#45]
Honda CRV, but not riced out with spinners or anything. Basically stock. My work truck is Toyota pickup. I understand the point of its a want, and not a need. Im not THAT dense. I was just curious. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:13:56 PM EDT
[#46]
I took my wife away from her family a long time ago. She likes being with me.
I, also, am a former US Marine and I also love shooting, hunting, etc. I've always been fascinated with military weapons, not neutered pseudoversions.
It seems a strange question under the circumstances and I would think to most people here, especially an ex-Marine the answer would be more than obvious.
I would agree. A true watershed event. It is a rare thing for people to get any of their freedoms back. Rare indeed.
Sure. Actually did in a way, up above. I also considered the car analogy. I mean you could walk right? Or ride a bike? Golf cart? Go kart? Do you use OEM parts or just whatever junk the garage can get at lowball prices. There is more authenticity to such a rifle and you just never know, might come in handy some day just like the spare medical supplies and foodstocks I keep on hand. How about because it pisses HilarySchumerFeinswineKennedyKerry off. Or how about because that's the way I want it and that's the way I paid for it? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 6:19:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Well shit, I do. Afterall it's my money so it's my opinion that counts here
Maybe
Well, I apid for the most effective flash suppressor made that I could also put a bayo on...
Sure I'll throw my gun away just like on TV  and then I'll pull my knife. And like I said, it is an issue for me, and it is my opinion that counts. Of course I will gladly sell it to you for what I paid... Afterall, you seem to think it is the cat's meow and that would easily resolve the entire situation. If that were the case I didn't need the upper at all. Got plenty. Next time you are going to make a bigticket purchase let me know and I'll tell you what you want or need. And when the door falls off your fucking oven let me know and I'll tell you to cover it with fucking tin foil. Sounds like a non issue to me. And why do you f'ing care what I want or why? You sound like a fucking poster boy for the next ban. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:00:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Me again.....
The tines opening up is a sign that the vortex is not to spec. Several of the old ones had tines break off. The way most people noticed was when they tried to put a bayo on it they couldnt anymore due to the tines spreading apart. Then they started to break out the calipers and start measuring. I dont think anyone here REALLY wants to discuss the functional use of a bayonet on a 14.5 upper. Hell, I didnt even want a lug on the rifle pictured above. BUT if the NEW Vortex wont fit a bayonet then there is a problem. Either it was cut wrong or the tines are headed for a failure. PS I did not free float my barrel just to hang a bayonet on it. this picture was taken several months ago when this discussion came up. And yes I have made other arangements for the front sling point as well. 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:09:14 PM EDT
[#49]
The Vortex has a hell of alot more utility than a bayonet does hagning off your 15. I stand to be corrected by some of our brothers out there but ,in my experience, NOTHING short of a can kills flash better than a Vortex. I use mine with 3rd Gen NV and it does a great job! IF however you just GOTTA have the bayonet, it ain't nothing you can't fix with a Dremel Tool and a carbide bit...just go SLOW while you are opening the hole up to fit over the Vortex. Of course I may be prejudiced against the whole concept of bayonets...each to his own.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:09:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Nice, and almost exactly what I planned on. FWIW, my vortex does not have the flats on it. It is smooth and round. I noticed that right off. |
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