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12/11/2018 1:58:31 AM
Posted: 12/5/2018 5:11:24 AM EST
OK now that I have over 700 bucks invested in Larue and ADM mounts I have been reading on other sites about how vertically split rings have caused dozens of malfunctions or outright failures on optics. WTF? Is this something I need to worry about? I don't have super expensive glass but the glass I do have I'd like to know my mounts aren't making a mess of. What gives?
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 7:08:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/5/2018 5:17:01 PM EST by rrbgeb]
Cheap scopes will fail for a variety of reasons. LaRue / Leupold combos sit on my optical AR platforms. Other than forgetting the blue or purple loctite on screws never had an issue nor do I know of anyone who has.

Oh and I have a torque wrench to install them correctly......

No experience with ADM.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 8:31:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/5/2018 8:32:12 AM EST by HunterKiller86]
The findings were not LaRue specific, but vertically split rings in general experienced tracking issues and mechanical failure compared to horizontally split rings.

Refer to the long range-centric discussion site for further research.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 9:45:43 AM EST
I am not tracking the tracking issue because of vertically split.

I don’t use many vertically split rings. A couple larue ar mounts excepted.

I don’t like the looks despite some famous high end places making them like Warne or Conetrol. ( I buy Warne horizontal split rings and are my preferred rimfire ring) Petty but there it is, I hate them on looks. Also the cheap ones where dismounting the scope and ring combo loosening the ring enough to allow the scope to move in the rings fucks up your setting making you go back to square one.

I would be interested to hear how my larue mount fouls up tracking.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 10:13:36 AM EST
Huh, never read of this.

Never cared for or could make sense of vertically split rings though and have never used them. Guess I was on to something unbeknownst to me.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 10:23:48 AM EST
Supposedly the compression from the clamping force in the horizontal axis rather than the vertical axis is enough to screw with the internals in some scopes.
Apparently, certain scope manufacturers only have internal allowances in one direction. Honestly, it probably has as much to do with over-torquing the mount screws as anything.

Scope manufacturers had compression zones factored in for Mr. "Gorilla Tight", but now he's monkeying around in a different area with vertical split rings.

I'm sure it's somewhat overblown (obviously by manufacturers of traditional rings), but there is some evidence to suggest that it can possibly be an issue.

**Interesting to note that nobody ever seemed to have this problem with SPUHR mounts.
Is that because they're split diagonally? (and the different compression forces were somewhat offset)
Or because they're so expensive they simply weren't a "threat" to traditional manufacturers?
Or because somebody buying SPUHR understands how to mount a scope properly?
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 11:06:46 AM EST
Uh oh, I have 2 adm scope mounts
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 11:32:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/5/2018 11:32:39 AM EST by Lightstriker]
Originally Posted By Schroderson:
Uh oh, I have 2 adm scope mounts
View Quote
I have a few ADM mounts as well, Deltas of course

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/1020/
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 11:35:18 AM EST
I have a dozen LT mounts and I've never had any issues.

Link Posted: 12/5/2018 12:42:04 PM EST
Thank you for the explanation. I just assumed it was uniform in dimensions and this
Strong uniformly in all directions. It seems like manufacturing is easier being uniform and round.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 8:05:51 PM EST
This stuff I have been reading comes from places where they think of a thousand dollar scope as "might be adequate on a trainer". All the same I am PROUD of my thousand dollar scope I just bought and want it to perform at it's best and don't want it to be damaged by the (expensive to me as well at almost $200) mount. Makes me feel poor somehow...
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 8:16:19 PM EST
Would be interesting to know the scope brands just as much as the mount brands.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 8:45:12 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BarrettBoy:
Would be interesting to know the scope brands just as much as the mount brands.
View Quote
It's a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x. Nicest scope I have ever owned.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 9:43:06 PM EST
Sad story: Last range trip a couple older gentlemen were sighting in a brand new savage with a very expensive looking Leopold on it. They realized they had not mounted it plumb. They were trying to loosen it up to adjust it and were having a really hard time getting the scope ring screws to loosen up. When I looked at it I just cringed. They had tightened the screws ALL THE WAY DOWN!! *shakes head*

We finally got them a proper sized tool and then gave them my levels and FatWrench. Said give it 20in./Lbs. They probably toasted that Leopold.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 10:29:20 PM EST
It depends on the scope and where the rings are.

All things being equal, horizontally split rings on a one piece base are going to be better than some other configuration.
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 12:00:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Little_Scrapper:
Sad story: Last range trip a couple older gentlemen were sighting in a brand new savage with a very expensive looking Leopold on it. They realized they had not mounted it plumb. They were trying to loosen it up to adjust it and were having a really hard time getting the scope ring screws to loosen up. When I looked at it I just cringed. They had tightened the screws ALL THE WAY DOWN!! *shakes head*

We finally got them a proper sized tool and then gave them my levels and FatWrench. Said give it 20in./Lbs. They probably toasted that Leopold.
View Quote
You do not use loctite?
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 12:24:10 PM EST
There's nothing wrong with vertical split rings. Always install your rings per the ring manufacturers specs. Use a torque wrench.
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 12:36:12 PM EST
This is just a marketing attempt by makers of horizontal rings to scare people into their products.

Ridiculous. Torque to spec. It doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 3:06:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 3:16:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
Vertically split rings are not necessarily bad. There certainly can be bad rings that happen to be vertically split, but it's not absolutely because they are vertically split (i.e. - getting quality made rings is of first and foremost importance). In our experience, though, it would be incorrect to say that vertically split rings are no different that horizontally split rings. Generally speaking, with horizontally split rings you simply level the scope in the bottom half, begin to torque down the top half while maintaining level, torque using a torque wrench in an alternating fashion like you'd do lug nuts on a wheel and you're done.

Their vertically split counterparts, however, need to be tightened a bit differently. Rather than tightening in an alternating pattern and going for an "Even ring gap" where the gaps between the two halves on either side are evenly spaced, you actually want to close one of the sides completely prior to even beginning to tighten the other side. Take our Pro rings for example - a fine ring made by Warne who is well known for producing quality rings. There's nothing wrong with them, but we've seen issues when people try to tighten them like a horizontal ring - even at proper torque spec, the scope slips or there is an impingement on the tube that causes issues with zeroing or tracking. In nearly all these cases, simply un-mounting the optic and re-mounting, torquing the top two screws on each ring down *first* to 18 inch pounds before even beginning to tighten the bottom screws, then moving to the bottoms to torque to 16 inch pounds solves to problem completely. On our ADM mounts of old which were vertically split, it was the bottom two that needed to be torqued first, and this also caused a number of issues for people who were tightening improperly (Hence the reason we switched to horizontally split in the newest and most current version)

And as a few others have noted, don't use loc-tite on the screws that clamp the rings around the scope tube on any type of ring - it will lubricate the threads and your torque wrench will cam over at what it "Thinks" is 16-18 inch pounds, for example, but really the screws have tightened as much as 20% beyond that, which, depending on the application, could begin to cause issues with any scope. We've been mounting and using scopes with rings torqued with zero loc-tite for years in the harshest conditions on the harshest of rifles without any issue whatsoever. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't still be recommending against it to this day.

In short - Vertically split rings can be fine, just don't try to tighten them like a horizontally split ring.
View Quote
What is your opinion about putting green Loctite on the screws after they have been properly torqued?
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 3:44:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:

In short - Vertically split rings can be fine, just don't try to tighten them like a horizontally split ring.
View Quote
ie... follow directions and vertical rings are fine.
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 8:58:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/6/2018 9:02:04 PM EST by Bronsonburner]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
Vertically split rings are not necessarily bad. There certainly can be bad rings that happen to be vertically split, but it's not absolutely because they are vertically split (i.e. - getting quality made rings is of first and foremost importance). In our experience, though, it would be incorrect to say that vertically split rings are no different that horizontally split rings. Generally speaking, with horizontally split rings you simply level the scope in the bottom half, begin to torque down the top half while maintaining level, torque using a torque wrench in an alternating fashion like you'd do lug nuts on a wheel and you're done.

Their vertically split counterparts, however, need to be tightened a bit differently. Rather than tightening in an alternating pattern and going for an "Even ring gap" where the gaps between the two halves on either side are evenly spaced, you actually want to close one of the sides completely prior to even beginning to tighten the other side. Take our Pro rings for example - a fine ring made by Warne who is well known for producing quality rings. There's nothing wrong with them, but we've seen issues when people try to tighten them like a horizontal ring - even at proper torque spec, the scope slips or there is an impingement on the tube that causes issues with zeroing or tracking. In nearly all these cases, simply un-mounting the optic and re-mounting, torquing the top two screws on each ring down *first* to 18 inch pounds before even beginning to tighten the bottom screws, then moving to the bottoms to torque to 16 inch pounds solves to problem completely. On our ADM mounts of old which were vertically split, it was the bottom two that needed to be torqued first, and this also caused a number of issues for people who were tightening improperly (Hence the reason we switched to horizontally split in the newest and most current version)

And as a few others have noted, don't use loc-tite on the screws that clamp the rings around the scope tube on any type of ring - it will lubricate the threads and your torque wrench will cam over at what it "Thinks" is 16-18 inch pounds, for example, but really the screws have tightened as much as 20% beyond that, which, depending on the application, could begin to cause issues with any scope. We've been mounting and using scopes with rings torqued with zero loc-tite for years in the harshest conditions on the harshest of rifles without any issue whatsoever. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't still be recommending against it to this day.

In short - Vertically split rings can be fine, just don't try to tighten them like a horizontally split ring.
View Quote
Thanks for responding to this. I was extremely careful mounting the scope into the ADM mount. Tightened bottom screws to 18 inch pounds then the top at the same torque. I did use the Vibratite ADM included with the mount and I let it dry before installation as per the instructions. Darn stuff gets mighty sticky and if anything I feel it may have affected the torque on the LOW side if anything. We'll see. Scope seems secure enough.

Edit to add it just so happens it's a PST gen2 3-15x. So far it seems like an excellent value and very well made. Best glass I have ever owned so far. Hope to get to the range soon and zero. Also will be doing a box test on it as I am looking to get into longer-range shooting in the near future.
Link Posted: 12/6/2018 10:56:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bronsonburner:
It's a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x. Nicest scope I have ever owned.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bronsonburner:
Originally Posted By BarrettBoy:
Would be interesting to know the scope brands just as much as the mount brands.
It's a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x. Nicest scope I have ever owned.
I picked up one of those a while back. I am impressed.

FWIW I have a Razor 1-6 in an ADM vertical split ring and it has performed flawlessly for several years now through some heavy 3-gun use.

My PST Gen II 3-15 is sitting in a Warne X-Skel 20MOA mount.
Link Posted: 12/7/2018 11:37:33 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hunter2052:

ie... follow directions and vertical rings are fine.
View Quote
Exactly. I've never understood the whole "I don't read the manual and proud of it" mentality among many gun owners.
Link Posted: 12/7/2018 4:14:11 PM EST
I have 5 larue mounts with various scopes in them from Leupold, Trijicon and an old IOR none have had issues. Have also had one of my zeiss in one of them without issue. I don't use a torque driver though I have one and think my gestimation is close enough, as long as you don't go overboard this shouldn't be an issue.
Link Posted: 12/8/2018 1:07:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2018 1:17:26 AM EST by tfod]


https://www.larue.com/page/instructions/



So some companies support the loctite, others state no.

I have seen people have loose scope rings from no loctite, never from using it. But if it could make it easier to "over tighten" with loctite, is it better to use the low end of torque range with it?
Link Posted: 12/8/2018 1:21:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2018 1:23:30 AM EST by tfod]
Amazon Product
  • Set of vertical split mounting rings designed for Rifleman riflescope
  • Precision machined from aircraft-grade aluminum for strength
  • Provides plenty of recoil resistance without adding excess weight
$10.19
Big difference between this style and others.
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 8:16:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:

And as a few others have noted, don't use loc-tite on the screws that clamp the rings around the scope tube on any type of ring - it will lubricate the threads and your torque wrench will cam over at what it "Thinks" is 16-18 inch pounds, for example, but really the screws have tightened as much as 20% beyond that, which, depending on the application, could begin to cause issues with any scope. We've been mounting and using scopes with rings torqued with zero loc-tite for years in the harshest conditions on the harshest of rifles without any issue whatsoever. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't still be recommending against it to this day.
View Quote
I HAVE had rings properly torqued come loose with no Loctite as many others have. It is cheap insurance to put a dab of blue Loctite on the threads.

Ironically the only scope I have had issues with because of a "wet torque" was an HST. I was getting horizontal grouping and tracking was crap. Vortex branded Warne mount was used. Vortex CS said it was probably because I torqued it to spec with Loctite. True or not I have mounted probably over 100 scopes this way ranging from $50 Simmons/CenterPoint up to scopes like the Weaver Tactical and Bushnell Elite.
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 12:59:50 PM EST
I use several Larue LT104 mounts. They all come with locktite. I have also called Larue and they told me to tighten one side completely, then the other side. I had previously tightened all screws simultaneously a little at a time but apparently this is a no-no with vertical rings (As described in the response for Vortex). I'm more concerned about the Larue quick release lever gouging the rail on my AR's.
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