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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 9/8/2013 7:01:08 PM EDT
I've got a 14.5" mid-length with a Troy drop-in quad rail. I've got my fore grip mounted about an inch from the forward end of the rail and that seems the most natural and comfortable to me. However, I've noticed in a lot of pictures that many mount theirs much further back, closer to the magwell. Since I've seen this so much I figured there must be a reason they're doing so? Is there, or is it just a matter of personal fit?
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 7:12:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gulfstream:
I've got a 14.5" mid-length with a Troy drop-in quad rail. I've got my fore grip mounted about an inch from the forward end of the rail and that seems the most natural and comfortable to me. However, I've noticed in a lot of pictures that many mount theirs much further back, closer to the magwell. Since I've seen this so much I figured there must be a reason they're doing so? Is there, or is it just a matter of personal fit?
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There's a considerable debate, sometimes a brawl on what grip and where to place it here on arfcom. If placing your's where you think it work's best for you, then do it.

To half of us, it reduces your silhouette in close combat, where a grip all the way forward doesn't, it reduces your peripheral vision, and give's you tunnel vision. The swaying we're accused of doing mean's that they just don't understand the basic's of rifle marksmanship and fundamentals and can't control their rifle correctly. You also can't shoot at the conditions a gunfight would bring you at every position. Going prone, your length of reach is reduced, so now what?

But like I said previously, it's your rifle, use it as you like it and see fit. I'd rather see you enjoy it most of all.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 7:46:47 PM EDT
For CQ , even medium range, I use my Tango Down grip, but for extended range I like to hold my fore end " old style" with my hand around it. I can't do that if my VG is right up against the mag well. So I have it a bit forward, so I can still put my hand around the fore arm. But it is the Q.D. model , so would just take about 3 seconds to move around on the lower rail.
Link Posted: 9/8/2013 7:55:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sandog75:
For CQ , even medium range, I use my Tango Down grip, but for extended range I like to hold my fore end " old style" with my hand around it. I can't do that if my VG is right up against the mag well. So I have it a bit forward, so I can still put my hand around the fore arm. But it is the Q.D. model , so would just take about 3 seconds to move around on the lower rail.
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"Old style" is a relaxed grip on the handguard, not squeezing it so tight that your hand goes numb. I've consistently shot expert every time that way when half of my career, was with an A2.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 9:32:30 PM EDT
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 9:38:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
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I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 10:05:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 10:13:24 PM EDT by MP9cBilly]
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Originally Posted By GSL:
I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.
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Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.


The point regarding the pistol is you'd be controlling the muzzle. And you missed the part about "if you could" - which obviously means, you can't.

Secondly, I didn't even mention how I do it (I use the vertical fore grip), and I didn't recommend how he should do it. I pretty much just echoed what you wrote, that there are 2 schools of thought. Competition guys aren't getting shot at and Costa looks bad ass doing it, but neither are getting shot at.  LOL.

EDIT: I use the VFG about a third of the way from the front, but I'm not sure yet what I'll settle on.
How do people who are getting shot at do it? I have no idea.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 10:14:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 10:15:43 PM EDT by GSL]
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Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:


The point regarding the pistol is you'd be controlling the muzzle. And you missed the part about "if you could" - which obviously means, you can't.

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Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.


The point regarding the pistol is you'd be controlling the muzzle. And you missed the part about "if you could" - which obviously means, you can't.

Reread about me saying if I could before you accuse me of anything. Also, if you can't control the muzzle, that's on you for neglecting trigger finger placement, breathing, and winging it due to a bad habit of reacting to perceived recoil versus actual recoil. It has no CQB merits, so what's the point if you can't defend your house if you're using a grip that give's you a bigger silhouette, gives you tunnel vision, only allow's you to fight in one position with no cover or concealment, and block's peripheral vision? Train to fighter smarter, not harder.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 9:35:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GSL:
Reread about me saying if I could before you accuse me of anything. Also, if you can't control the muzzle, that's on you for neglecting trigger finger placement, breathing, and winging it due to a bad habit of reacting to perceived recoil versus actual recoil. It has no CQB merits, so what's the point if you can't defend your house if you're using a grip that give's you a bigger silhouette, gives you tunnel vision, only allow's you to fight in one position with no cover or concealment, and block's peripheral vision? Train to fighter smarter, not harder.
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Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.


The point regarding the pistol is you'd be controlling the muzzle. And you missed the part about "if you could" - which obviously means, you can't.

Reread about me saying if I could before you accuse me of anything. Also, if you can't control the muzzle, that's on you for neglecting trigger finger placement, breathing, and winging it due to a bad habit of reacting to perceived recoil versus actual recoil. It has no CQB merits, so what's the point if you can't defend your house if you're using a grip that give's you a bigger silhouette, gives you tunnel vision, only allow's you to fight in one position with no cover or concealment, and block's peripheral vision? Train to fighter smarter, not harder.


So what you're saying is you're a huge proponent of the "reverse scorpion" grip. (term coined by larry vickers) Not a fan myself, unless you're a gamer.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 12:44:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By G_MAN:


So what you're saying is you're a huge proponent of the "reverse scorpion" grip. (term coined by larry vickers) Not a fan myself, unless you're a gamer.
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Originally Posted By G_MAN:
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Originally Posted By GSL:
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Seems to me it is easier to hold the rifle up with the fore grip in closer, but reaching way out gets more control over the barrel. Guys like Costa use the fore grip to index where the hand goes but still wrap their hand around the rail for better control. So if you want more control, you'll sacrifice a bit of comfort. But there's still plenty of control no matter where you hold it, just that some want to get that extra edge. Imagine gripping your pistol all the way up front and wrapping your hand around the slide. You'd keep the muzzle flat. We would if we could.
I'd use caution when recommending that grip, as I've explained the obvious. And no, I'd never do that to my pistol if I could, it's not smart and all you'd be doing is shooting with no sight's to properly aim with.


The point regarding the pistol is you'd be controlling the muzzle. And you missed the part about "if you could" - which obviously means, you can't.

Reread about me saying if I could before you accuse me of anything. Also, if you can't control the muzzle, that's on you for neglecting trigger finger placement, breathing, and winging it due to a bad habit of reacting to perceived recoil versus actual recoil. It has no CQB merits, so what's the point if you can't defend your house if you're using a grip that give's you a bigger silhouette, gives you tunnel vision, only allow's you to fight in one position with no cover or concealment, and block's peripheral vision? Train to fighter smarter, not harder.


So what you're saying is you're a huge proponent of the "reverse scorpion" grip. (term coined by larry vickers) Not a fan myself, unless you're a gamer.
I don't game, and WTH is a reverse scorpion?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 2:41:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GSL:

So what you're saying is you're a huge proponent of the "reverse scorpion" grip. (term coined by larry vickers) Not a fan myself, unless you're a gamer
don't game, and WTH is a reverse scorpion?
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Larry Vickers refers to the arm extended thumb wrapped over the muzzle grip(chris costas style) as the "reverse scorpion",  I'm not a big proponent but find it useful for 3 gunners. you're obviously NOT a fan either.  

Link Posted: 9/10/2013 3:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2013 3:23:59 PM EDT by GSL]
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Originally Posted By G_MAN:


Larry Vickers refers to the arm extended thumb wrapped over the muzzle grip(chris costas style) as the "reverse scorpion",  I'm not a big proponent but find it useful for 3 gunners. you're obviously NOT a fan either.  

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Originally Posted By G_MAN:
Originally Posted By GSL:

So what you're saying is you're a huge proponent of the "reverse scorpion" grip. (term coined by larry vickers) Not a fan myself, unless you're a gamer
don't game, and WTH is a reverse scorpion?


Larry Vickers refers to the arm extended thumb wrapped over the muzzle grip(chris costas style) as the "reverse scorpion",  I'm not a big proponent but find it useful for 3 gunners. you're obviously NOT a fan either.  

I've never been a fan of those grip's, and I never will be. Those who complain or don't like the VFG's on actually M-4 length rails or use them as AFG's either were never taught how to correctly use it as it was intended to be used correctly, or are military hobbyist's who wanted what their armed forces were using, and just threw it on without a clue. I don't fault them for the latter as it's flattery in a way, but I do fault them for giving up so easily without learning to employ it correctly.

I place my VFG's about an inch and a half away from the gas block on a carbine length rail, due to the fact I have longer arms. But that's beside's the point, while employing the VFG, so many untrained either grasp it with a relaxed grip (which isn't a bad thing if speed of follow up shot's isn't of pertinence to the shooter), or they grasp it and pull it into their shoulder which actually enhances muzzle flip. What you're supposed to do is pull into your shoulder with the pistol grip, and push out on the VFG to act as a counter weight when firing, which reduce's muzzle flip. It's almost as fatiguing as those fad grips, but then again I still have situational awareness and can do instant and faster pivot turns to face new threats to either my left or right flanks, or a total 360. It also as I said before, reduces your silhouette so you can turn more easily in tight quarters such as CQB, and not exposing yourself more than usual.

As a side not, anyone with a brain can easily disarm those with those fad grips, unless they have one heck of a sling.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 4:22:23 PM EDT
Put the grip where ever it feels comfortable to you and leave it.

IMO, I had a VFG and grew to not like it. AFG feels more comfortable.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 7:03:31 PM EDT
Guys, I appreciate the feedback and insight. I've got over 20 years behind a M16 but it was all A1 and A2's...so no VFG. My mid-length has rails that extend to just aft of the front sight assy/gas block...so it's a little longer than a carbine length. Playing around with different grip positions I've found that for me the VFG felt the most natural about 1" aft of the forward edge of the rail. I tried from several different shooting positions including prone and it just works for me. It's funny to hear the remarks about the "reverse scorpion" grip, I found myself doing just that (at least from the description given here)...didn't even know it had a name. I've got to get some more trigger time though to confirm this is where I want it, Again I appreciate the discussion.
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