Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/31/2004 2:12:23 AM EST
In this mornings Richmond,Va. Times Dispatch there is an article titled "No protocol for rifles' use".
It seems the Va. State Police used Colt M4 carbines purchased after 9/11 for each troopers vehicle in stopping a suspect who had just committed multiple murder. He was at the end of a cul-du-sac when several troopers fired on his advancing pickup truck with their M4s. The suspect was killed.
The articles lists the the effective range of the M4 at 6 football fields with a velocity of 2900 fps.
Astonishing was the revelation that since procurement of said M4s the Va.State Police have had absolutely NO written policy on procedure or deployment for the use of the M4 by individual troopers.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:18:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:20:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Sounds like the troopers chose the right policy. Life in danger, shoot rifle to stop threat.



Agreed.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:38:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 2:43:38 AM EST by AGC]
Bad Guy gets shot with an M4.

And the problem is...?

"Astonishing" lack of policy? Beyond the usual use-of-force policy?

Sounds like VaSP knew just what to do, and did it. And did some nice shooting. Good for them----one less murderous asshole walking the Earth.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:44:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:56:47 AM EST
Good job VaSP!

Another bad guy that won't be able to come into my neighborhood and do the same thing.


Steve.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:30:28 AM EST
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."

Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:33:17 AM EST
Some people just need something to bitch about. The friggin bullets from their pistols would have "torn" through the houses even better. Stupid Fucknuts!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:41:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By DHH:
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."




The "family cowering " wouldnt be able to bitch if the perp would've been in their home . Better if the fragments of bulletts and house were in the back yard rather than bulletts and their brains !
The State Police made the right choice , stop the criminal before more innocents were harmed .
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:42:59 AM EST
If I were cowering in the floor in my house while bullets flew through I would not be pleased.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:48:28 AM EST
CS, you miss the points,

A. If they were using handguns there would have been worse penetration
B. If they were using handguns there would have been poorer aiming and most likely MORE bullets in the house.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:02:27 AM EST
Sounds like the State Troopers deserve praise, they took a dangerous suspect off the streets. The M4 was just another tool in there toolbox.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:03:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By DHH:
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."




What type of ammo where they using? I have a hard time believeing the ripped through the house and a bathtub stuff. Just kinda hard to believe....


Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:10:01 AM EST
Looks like they did the right thing to me. Stop the goblin before he hurts others.....

LB
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:15:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By DHH:
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."




I smell

Good shoot.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:16:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By AlShear:
The articles lists the the effective range of the M4 at 6 football fields with a velocity of 2900 fps.



Another load of fed to the sheeple.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:21:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:21:48 AM EST by SWO_daddy]

However, the superintendent said he is reluctant to impose a written policy on use of the M4 carbine that could limit a trooper's ability to make a quick decision in a dangerous situation.

"There are not any specific times when you say you can't use the M4 in this situation," he said.

In the Colonial Heights standoff, Flaherty said, "I'm not concerned that they got out with the M4s, no."



BZ to the VSP Superintendent. Nothing worse than micromanaging a decision that MUST be left to the officer in the field (matching the firearm to the threat). Cops are already responsible and accountable for every bullet they fire, so who cares what kind of gun it came from? I don't.


When the shooting occurred, they were waiting for a state police tactical team that was equipped with the same weapons but with more specialized training for using them in those situations.



What kind of additional training is required to use ANY fucking rifle?

This is all they need to know:
a) Be aware of your backstop
b) Sight picture
c) Sight alignment
d) Trigger control
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:23:06 AM EST
Excellent job VSP!

Saved all Virginians a boat load of tax dollars housing this turd.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:30:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:33:34 AM EST by White-Feather]
This is the part of the article that sounds like the local "Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault Weapon" typical propaganda.


Originally Posted By DHH:
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."



Looks like bullshit, smells like bullshit, tastes like bull shit....?? Dont step in it....!!!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:32:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:34:14 AM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:38:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By AlShear:
Astonishing was the revelation that since procurement of said M4s the Va.State Police have had absolutely NO written policy on procedure or deployment for the use of the M4 by individual troopers.



Kind of doubtful, A trooper I know recently was issued a front-wheel drive car and he had to go back to a special driving school geared for front wheel drive. He joked that if the VSP changes types of pens that they have an in-service class!

Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:49:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:51:24 AM EST by White-Feather]
Cowering....??? read further down in the article....!!!

Thompson was sitting in a truck in a cul-de-sac in front of a house that he had tried to enter earlier. The house sits slightly elevated at the end of the cul-de-sac. Police had warned the family inside to take cover and stay low.


Sounds like the troopers did exactly what they should do... they gave sufficient warning to any innocent bystanders to prepare for possible action that might include the use of deadly force.... so the article now appears to include the "cowering in their home" quote just for shock value and propaganda.... keep an eye on your paper Alshear... I would bet the farm that in the next few days or a couple weeks that the Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault weapon liberals will jump all over this and ride it for anything and everything they can.... I wouldnt be surprised to even hear Kerry and Edwards mention it in the next day or 2.... The editor of the paper is most likely an Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault weapon flag waver....

This article gets a 2 flag salute......




Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:56:47 AM EST
So there is another down side to living on a cul-de-sac in addition to cars turning around to fast in the circle.

I have learned from this. When building a house in a cul-de-sac, get the triple brick front elevation.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:01:46 AM EST
Im not judging wether it was a good shoot or not, I really am not qualified to say. And 223, 9mm, or 22LR I would be bummed if my house was used as a backstop.

If the situation left no other alternative then I guess I'd have to live with it. I am not anti-LEO in anyway but I can certainly say that if 20-30 rounds went through my living room I would be an unhappy camper.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:25:26 AM EST
I'd like to SEE the house in question, with the damage. If the report is anywhere near accurate, I see a few problems.

1) Sounds like a "Free Fire Zone" instead of ACCURATE AIMED FIRE was used. Bad idea in a residential area.

2) IF the reports of penetration ARE accurate, kinda makes me rethink claims of no overpenetration with 223/556 rounds.

3) That many rounds MISSING the intended target. Being aware of what is beyond your intended target is ALWAYS a major concern.

Not totally condemning, just need more facts, as this doesn't sound, at first blush, that the incident was properly handled. However, I wasn't there and I am fully aware that these initial reports are USUALLY inaccurate.



P.S. The "6 football fields" corresponds to 600 yards. NOT beyond belief as an effective range, and certainly the bullets are capable of being lethal at far further. Muzzle velocity is close on the M-4, depending on ammo used.



Lonny

Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:32:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 5:37:27 AM EST by Copper54]
They have a written use of force policy that says when they should and shouldn't shoot. There is a good chance that the policy has limitations (not prohibitions) on shooting at moving vehicles. I'm sure that they also have qualification requirements for those rifles as well as their sidearms. The only intelligent reason for using a handgun instead of a rifle is that you don't have access to the rifle right then. In 20 years of training, I've always been taught go with the long gun if you know/think you're going into a gunfight situation.

The public accepts us walking around wearing a handgun (well, most of em do anyway), but they'll get all twisted out of shape if we start walk around carrying rifles slung over our shoulders. The handgun is merely an expedient means of protecting ourselves and the public.

The whole argument is simply, "was deadly force warranted?" If it was (and based on the article it sounds like it was), their is no question of how much deadly force is warranted. Dead is dead, force is force. Sooner or later some idiot out there is going to throw out the phrase "overkill". This is the same logic that kept NYPD and other agencies saddled with 158 grain round nose lead bullets that required massive amounts of multiple hits to accomplish the job, instead of one or two hollow points.

Bunch of damn idiots trying to boost their gun grabbing position.

PS. last numbers I heard, LE tends to miss with about 85% of thier rounds with handguns. Only advantage(?) to using handguns in this situation would have been fewer rounds in the guns to start with (assuming 30 round mags, if 20 round mags, not that great a difference over say a 9mm glock). Good chance the guy would still be rolling if they'd used handguns.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:52:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 5:56:09 AM EST by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By xcpd69:
I'd like to SEE the house in question, with the damage. If the report is anywhere near accurate, I see a few problems.

1) Sounds like a "Free Fire Zone" instead of ACCURATE AIMED FIRE was used. Bad idea in a residential area.

2) IF the reports of penetration ARE accurate, kinda makes me rethink claims of no overpenetration with 223/556 rounds.

3) That many rounds MISSING the intended target. Being aware of what is beyond your intended target is ALWAYS a major concern.

Not totally condemning, just need more facts, as this doesn't sound, at first blush, that the incident was properly handled. However, I wasn't there and I am fully aware that these initial reports are USUALLY inaccurate.



P.S. The "6 football fields" corresponds to 600 yards. NOT beyond belief as an effective range, and certainly the bullets are capable of being lethal at far further. Muzzle velocity is close on the M-4, depending on ammo used.



Lonny




The 'bathtub' in the article is no doubt of the fiberglass varitey that most new homes have, so I wouldn't put much in that. As for the penatration issue, I don't think anyone is saying drywall will stop .223 cold. I don't know of any round that wont punch numerous layers of drywall with air spaces. The advantage to .223 is that after a wall or two you have a low velocity, small caliber round or even smaller fragments of rounds that will not penetrate deeply or be *as* lethal. On the other hand a 9mm / .40 / .45 will just be a little deformed and trucking right along with all it's mass on the other side of your house, unless your lucky and a few 2x4's get in it's way.

Nobody, myself included would want .223 fragments bouncing around thier house or be happy about it. However, I'd rather that then 140+ grain hollow points truking through my house and walls like they weren't there.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:53:37 AM EST
first off............. any means to stop the criminal is justified

as to the damage to the home, tub located against the outside wall made of fiberglass, easily penetrated and with open floor plans as most new houses are it's not too much of a strech to think a fragment or debris could end up in a back yard. As a builder I often think about these things as I build homes.....................I guess I'm a little twisted
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 6:11:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By 19suburban96:
first off............. any means to stop the criminal is justified

as to the damage to the home, tub located against the outside wall made of fiberglass, easily penetrated and with open floor plans as most new houses are it's not too much of a strech to think a fragment or debris could end up in a back yard. As a builder I often think about these things as I build homes.....................I guess I'm a little twistedhr


If you where closer to me I would want you to build my house
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 6:15:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By RichM:

Originally Posted By 19suburban96:
first off............. any means to stop the criminal is justified

as to the damage to the home, tub located against the outside wall made of fiberglass, easily penetrated and with open floor plans as most new houses are it's not too much of a strech to think a fragment or debris could end up in a back yard. As a builder I often think about these things as I build homes.....................I guess I'm a little twisted



If you where closer to me I would want you to build my house





Will work for Ammo
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 6:33:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 6:34:07 AM EST by CJan_NH]
It always warms my heart to hear about a criminal taking the eternal dirtnap.

I'm glad to hear that no friendlies were harmed while this public service was being performed.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 7:14:41 AM EST
I am thankful that the VaSP do not have an "official policy" in regard to the use of these rifles by their troopers. It indicates that the Va SP hires men that are of sifficient intelligence to understand WHEN to employ such weapons. If the article is remotely correct, it does seem that VaSP needs to train their troopers on HOW to employ them. BG dead, good. Shooting into the house of innocents, bad.

VaSP, tighten it up fellas!
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 8:13:30 AM EST
"It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground"

Wouldn't be surprised if the "20" rounds through the house turned out to be 1 or 2.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 9:12:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Copper54:
They have a written use of force policy that says when they should and shouldn't shoot.



Please verify your source of this information, I don't believe you. I teach use of force, and I am unaware of any policy in the nation that tells you the situations where you are allowed or not allowed to shoot. The policy is a guideline for actions, not events.

If I misunderstood your post, not a problem, it could simply be the way you wrote it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:13:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By SNorman:
"It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground"

Wouldn't be surprised if the "20" rounds through the house turned out to be 1 or 2.



exactly...media or homeowners in need of lawsuit money never inflate figures.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 10:34:03 AM EST
Keep in mind that this is from a newspaper article. We all know what the media can do to the facts. Most State Police have SOP's that tell them when to wear their hats for god sakes. I can't imagine that those troopers weren't trained and acting within written policy. Sounds like they didn't have time or resources to evacuate the house, but were able to warn them to take cover. All in all Good Show Troopers.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 12:06:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By PVFD304:

Originally Posted By AlShear:
Astonishing was the revelation that since procurement of said M4s the Va.State Police have had absolutely NO written policy on procedure or deployment for the use of the M4 by individual troopers.



Kind of doubtful, A trooper I know recently was issued a front-wheel drive car and he had to go back to a special driving school geared for front wheel drive. He joked that if the VSP changes types of pens that they have an in-service class!



In the article sir. As a former LEO usually there is ongoing use of force and other training but in this case the troopers were given the M4s and evidently nothing else in the area of situational deployment, etc. .
Don't get me wrong, the outcome suits me. Its the details that concern me.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 1:41:27 PM EST
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bhrncir/Dirty%20Harry.JPG

"There's nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Harry Callahan
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:16:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By DHH:
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:

"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard."




What type of ammo where they using? I have a hard time believeing the ripped through the house and a bathtub stuff. Just kinda hard to believe....




What the hell, get some spackle and that will buff right out. Seriously, the author of the piece was probably using some "poetic liscense". I don't doubt that the families in the neighborhood hit the deck and peed their pants when the troopers lit that guy up, I probably would have soiled myself as well. But I doubt that anything penetrated the outside walls of any house unless it hit a window..

-sc
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:17:53 PM EST
Can you imagine the damage if you had a bathtub launcher?

-sc




Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By CounterStrike:
If I were cowering in the floor in my house while bullets flew through I would not be pleased.

me too

If there's a house behind the guy you're going to shoot at maybe you should just let him out of the cul de sac

My gun doesn't shoot "showers" is there a showerhead attachment I am missing?

Link Posted: 10/31/2004 2:30:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 2:53:31 PM EST by xcpd69]
Here's an additional article, giving some more details to the damage done. Also in this as well as the first, it states the house was on a small hill at the end of the cul de sac. Some of the bullets hit the roof and the second floor.

On a house on a hill.

VA Times-Dispatch Follow-up


Four rounds drilled through a front window of the home, and multiple rounds hit the exterior bricks and sheetrock on the second floor. The roof had various bullet holes in it, an upstairs bathtub was shot four times, and a heating unit on the second floor was also struck.

The homeowner's pickup truck also had its rear and driver's side windows shot out, and the metal toolbox and truck tailgate were also hit. The homeowner said at least one round flew over the head of his wife and 7-month-old son.

Up to 30 rounds may have hit the home, the owner said. No one in the house was injured.






Lonny
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:40:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 4:41:44 PM EST by Maddogkiller]

Originally Posted By xcpd69:




Four rounds drilled through a front window of the home, and multiple rounds hit the exterior bricks and sheetrock on the second floor. The roof had various bullet holes in it, an upstairs bathtub was shot four times, and a heating unit on the second floor was also struck.

The homeowner's pickup truck also had its rear and driver's side windows shot out, and the metal toolbox and truck tailgate were also hit. The homeowner said at least one round flew over the head of his wife and 7-month-old son.

Up to 30 rounds may have hit the home, the owner said. No one in the house was injured.






Lonny




Rule#3 Know your target and WHAT IS BEYOND IT.
Rule#4 Keep your finger off of the trigger until your sights ARE ON TARGET

Tighten up fellas.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:47:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
My gun doesn't shoot "showers" is there a showerhead attachment I am missing?



It does if it's a bullet hose.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 4:57:50 PM EST
No way can a pistol rd. pentrate what the 5.56 does at that distance and normal house building materials.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:00:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 5:06:09 PM EST by 45Colt]
Sounds like another misinformed liberal reporter whining about all those hi- powered
"assault weapons" that are causing death and destruction in the city streets.
Even the criminals are outgunned...............
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:31:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:46:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2004 5:48:00 PM EST by DerekR]
This doesnt appear like liberal reporting at all to me.

If the cops had told me they were about to use deadly force in my area, my old trusty would get a mag slapped in it.

The reason being, is so when the cops rain 50 rnds on the guy to get him, I can get him with one and then yell, "Somebody was CLOSER".

Why is it Cops are natoriously bad aimers?
*edit*
Let me answer my own question, donuts and bad physical requirements maybe.......?


Most of the gun owners I know are hunters. You know how many times I have ever seen anyone shoot at an animal........... once. Thats all it took. The military training I had, stressed this. Sure there is more stress in the real situation, but 1 shot.

If the rounds were hitting the second floor, on a raised house, on a hill.......... bad shooting, period. No excuse. My tax dollars dont pay for that, they pay for experience, expert shooting.

I can do it, and I dont do it full time, or even part time.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 5:53:57 PM EST
Good guys 1 Bad guys 0
Link Posted: 11/1/2004 2:15:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By 45Colt:
Sounds like another misinformed liberal reporter whining about all those hi- powered
"assault weapons" that are causing death and destruction in the city streets.
Even the criminals are outgunned...............


No sir, the Richmond Times Dispatch is a conservative, Republican and pro-second ammendment newspaper.
Link Posted: 11/1/2004 2:35:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
No way can a pistol rd. pentrate what the 5.56 does at that distance and normal house building materials.
Jack



I'm sure you've shot houses with pistol calibers and 5.56mm before to compare?
Link Posted: 11/1/2004 4:16:05 AM EST
is it too much to ask that they qual with the weapons they shoot?
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top