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Posted: 10/12/2004 11:22:51 AM EST
Hear ye, hear ye... Carbine_Man is about to eat crow. All rise and cast slurs and nasty aspersions in unison! Cry foul, fool, dolt and idiot! Heap ugly epithets upon poor stupid Carbine_Man!!! He has earned it.

Carbine_Man confesses: "I recommended Vulcan carbon-Aramid upper receivers to everybody. I thought they were great... now I have come to recognize the evil of my ways."

I put about 2,200 rounds through one of my 2 Vulcan plastic uppers. Functionally they are "okay." I never had an actual failure. But over time I noticed that the accuracy sucks donkey lungs. The upper receiver flexes with every shot. I decided to just live with it. Then yesterday I had my first good reason to get rid of them. The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold. This means that with every shot the charge handle is coming back and bopping me on the nose.

One other thing. This isn't exactly a Vulcan issue, but I had terrible problems with an SP1 (no forward-assist) upper. It convinced me that forward assists are useful and necessary if you're going to rely on your rifle.

Taken together these things pushed me over the edge. That's it, enough compromise! I replaced one with a standard A3 upper receiver, and I'll replace the other when I have some extra cash.

The Vulcan plastic lower on my lightweight still functions perfectly and shows no of wear.

Okay. Go ahead, heap insults. I can take it.

C_M
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:27:09 AM EST
Hey, SOMEBODY has to test this stuff. Some close-up pics would be nice
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:42:45 AM EST
Better than pics, I can send you the piece! It's worthless except as a conversation piece... unless you want to built an upper that sprays bullets like a shotty and bops you in the nose with the charge handle.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:47:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 11:48:51 AM EST by El_Roto]
Thank you for writing an excellent an honest review! Few people would be that open.

Some folks may have predicted that it would suck but now we know how it sucks. Thanks again.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:49:47 AM EST
heh! i'm suprised you'd admit to this :-)...

you pay for what you get...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 11:52:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:


Then yesterday I had my first good reason to get rid of them. The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold. This means that with every shot the charge handle is coming back and bopping me on the nose.

C_M



ROTFLMAO,

All the other AR15 shooters at the range have gotta be wondering why you are flinching with such a mild recoiling rifle. Little do they know you're getting punched in the nose by your rifle.

Even if it's not that strong a bump, it's still gotta tax the nerves or a shooter's ability to concentrate.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 12:44:53 PM EST
thats so three stooges....I could just imagine you shooting a rifle...dropping it...


NYUCK NYUCK....and then poking the guy next to him in the eyes
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 12:54:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold. This means that with every shot the charge handle is coming back and bopping me on the nose.


C_M




At least you had good nose-to-charging handle position


- BG
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:01:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 1:01:31 PM EST by Lon_Moer]
Uhhemmm..."Hesse, unsafe at any speed" -Troy
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:08:09 PM EST
How about an ARFCOM museum?

Create a pic thread of fucked up parts to show & inform others of bad manufacturing, bad operating procedures, maintenance practices, etc.

Nothing quite like experience to create a lasting impression.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:11:26 PM EST
Let me put this in simple terms...

Hesse=Shit
Vulcan=Hesse

Therefore Vulcan=Shit!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:12:49 PM EST
At least you are taking it like a MAN.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 1:42:49 PM EST
But But it's 4x lighter and 12x stronger than aluminun, and they are issued to Special force around the world. That's what they say in thier ads.

It's always good to have updated Hesse horror stories to reaffirm out beliefs.

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:00:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 5:01:23 PM EST by Carbine_Man]

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold. This means that with every shot the charge handle is coming back and bopping me on the nose.


C_M

At least you had good nose-to-charging handle position

- BG

I wish I had a movie of it. I took the first shot, BANG and ping! and thought "huh, I didn't realize I was that close the the charge handle." So I move my face back a half inch, BANG and ping! the handle bops my nose. I think, "boy, recoil is doing funny things today", move my face back another half inch, BANG and ping! "What the hack is going on here?!?!?!" I never knew how important that little catch is!
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:25:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Let me put this in simple terms...

Hesse=Shit
Vulcan=Hesse

Therefore Vulcan=Shit!



I think we should call that the Yojimbo Theorem!
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:40:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold. This means that with every shot the charge handle is coming back and bopping me on the nose.


C_M

At least you had good nose-to-charging handle position

- BG

I wish I had a movie of it. I took the first shot, BANG and ping! and thought "huh, I didn't realize I was that close the the charge handle." So I move my face back a half inch, BANG and ping! the handle bops my nose. I think, "boy, recoil is doing funny things today", move my face back another half inch, BANG and ping! "What the hack is going on here?!?!?!" I never knew how important that little catch is!



Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:49:31 AM EST
"Friends don't let friends buy Hesse"



Lonny
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:50:34 AM EST
I would never insult someone for stepping out of the comfort zone and trying something new (No homo stuff). So thanks for the update.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:02:47 AM EST
Hey, thanks for posting the update! It's very useful to have people posting their actual experiences with gun stuff, not just their opinions. That bit tends to wear on aluminum uppers; I'm not surprised it wouldn't hold in plastic. 'glad to hear the lower is still going strong.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:46:44 AM EST
Don't sweat it brotha, you know the proverb "It's best to eat crow while it's still warm..."
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:56:43 PM EST
Hold on a minute......at the risk of being mobbed by a wild crowd of rabid, howling Vulcan/Hesse haters bend on gouging both of my eyes out and skullf**king me, it seems like this is a really easy fix.....drill a tiny hole in the upper right where the hook is, then use some epoxy to glue a 3-4mm long steel rod for the catch to wear on instead of the carbon fiber.....kinda like the steel rails on a polymer pistol.

AoD

PS on the other hand....how much more does an aluminuim upper weigh than a CF?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:00:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By AoD:
Hold on a minute......at the risk of being mobbed by a wild crowd of rabid, howling Vulcan/Hesse haters bend on gouging both of my eyes out and skullf**king me, it seems like this is a really easy fix.....drill a tiny hole in the upper right where the hook is, then use some epoxy to glue a 3-4mm long steel rod for the catch to wear on instead of the carbon fiber.....kinda like the steel rails on a polymer pistol.

AoD

PS on the other hand....how much more does an aluminuim upper weigh than a CF?

Hey, I'll GIVE you this one if you want it! Just send me a couple of bucks to cover shipping, and you can fix it all you want... seriously.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:14:36 PM EST
Actually....I already BOUGHT one.....mainly because YOU recomended it! h
Still gonna use the CF lower though......what torque figures did you use on the buffer tube, by the way.....I'm a little leery of overtightening it......or just use blue loctite?

Thanks,

AoD
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:26:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 4:28:52 PM EST by ebgb68]

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By AoD:
Hold on a minute......at the risk of being mobbed by a wild crowd of rabid, howling Vulcan/Hesse haters bend on gouging both of my eyes out and skullf**king me, it seems like this is a really easy fix.....drill a tiny hole in the upper right where the hook is, then use some epoxy to glue a 3-4mm long steel rod for the catch to wear on instead of the carbon fiber.....kinda like the steel rails on a polymer pistol.

AoD

PS on the other hand....how much more does an aluminuim upper weigh than a CF?

Hey, I'll GIVE you this one if you want it! Just send me a couple of bucks to cover shipping, and you can fix it all you want... seriously.



I'll take it ! tell me where to send the bucks.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:31:39 PM EST
Told you so.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:39:54 PM EST
Id have trouble trusting a plastic upper. A lower on the other hand is a different story.

Hesse plastic lowers rock the house and ya'll need to quit hatin and get wit da program
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:12:38 PM EST
This post confirmed one theory and and answered another question. I've long been thinking about building a lightweight and using the Vulcan lower. So far, I haven't heard anything bad about them other than the name. since the lower is a low stress, not much moving part, I figured it would be ok. The upper always concerned me, especially with the bolt carrier going back and forth.

You've answered my questions. If I do end up building one, only the lower will be CF. The upper will be aluminum.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:03:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By ebgb68:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By AoD:
Hold on a minute......at the risk of being mobbed by a wild crowd of rabid, howling Vulcan/Hesse haters bend on gouging both of my eyes out and skullf**king me, it seems like this is a really easy fix.....drill a tiny hole in the upper right where the hook is, then use some epoxy to glue a 3-4mm long steel rod for the catch to wear on instead of the carbon fiber.....kinda like the steel rails on a polymer pistol.

AoD

PS on the other hand....how much more does an aluminuim upper weigh than a CF?

Hey, I'll GIVE you this one if you want it! Just send me a couple of bucks to cover shipping, and you can fix it all you want... seriously.



I'll take it ! tell me where to send the bucks.

I just IM'd you. Send me your name and addy, it's yours.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:39:56 AM EST
Thanks for "taking one for the team."
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:22:27 AM EST
SEND IT TO JOHN KERRY


Sorry, I couldn't resist!!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:25:57 AM EST
"Vulcan Arms -- The Weapons of the Special Forces"

Are these the same "special" forces that ride the short bus?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:53:07 PM EST
You've got balls carbine man. I followed that build from start to finish till now cause I was really interested in building one like that one day. I'm still thinking carbon lowers are ok. I am waiting to see if Bushmaster will ever make Carbon uppers, and if they do, are they better than the Hesse/Vulcan stuff. Great reporting man.

See about getting this information posted on the parts review section at the Maryland AR15 shooters sight.. I forgot the name of that place and my favorites got erased
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:00:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 4:04:16 AM EST by Carbine_Man]

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
You've got balls carbine man. I followed that build from start to finish till now cause I was really interested in building one like that one day. I'm still thinking carbon lowers are ok. I am waiting to see if Bushmaster will ever make Carbon uppers, and if they do, are they better than the Hesse/Vulcan stuff. Great reporting man.

See about getting this information posted on the parts review section at the Maryland AR15 shooters sight.. I forgot the name of that place and my favorites got erased

I really do appreciate all the support.

When I went the Vulcan route, it was only because of the light weight of these parts. I never tried to gloss over the non-existent warranty or Vulcan/Hesse's bad customer service, or the other bad stories about their products. The upper and lower receivers are cheap, and light. Beyond that, you pays yer dough, you takes yer chances.

I accepted the risk. If you go back and read the reviews, I speculated that the uppers wouldn't be good for accuracy because of the flex. Now that I've converted my Ultralight to a standard A3 upper receiver, the stiffness of the rifle is much better and the groups have become nice and tight.

If someone out there bought a Vulcan upper on my recommendation, you had to know what you were doing and you made your own decision. If you bought right from Vulcan, you didn't lose more than ~$55. If you don't mind the loss of accuracy, and tweaked it with some epoxy or JB Weld, you're not out anything.

Anyway, our hobby/sport/addiction will never advance if no one is willing to take some risk. I did, and I don't regret it.

Anyway, I will be yanking out my other Vulcan upper as soon as my new one arrives from Legal. Because this second upper hasn't failed (i.e. the charge handle hasn't started pinging my nose yet) I will sell this one for a very modest price, if anyone's interested.

C_M

(edited to add) I am still convinced that the Vulcan lower is great. There is almost no stress on the part and I don't see where it could suffer wear. I am still recommending the lower (for whatever my recommendation is worth. )
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 4:28:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Let me put this in simple terms...

Hesse=Shit
Vulcan=Hesse

Therefore Vulcan=Shit!




Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:05:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jinete_Palido:
"Vulcan Arms -- The Weapons of the Special Forces"

Are these the same "special" forces that ride the short bus?




Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:08:20 PM EST

If someone out there bought a Vulcan upper on my recommendation, you had to know what you were doing and you made your own decision. If you bought right from Vulcan, you didn't lose more than ~$55. If you don't mind the loss of accuracy, and tweaked it with some epoxy or JB Weld, you're not out anything.


Hope you didn't think I meant anything serious by my earlier post.....I did get it because you recomended it, but it was all an experiment anyway......if it doesn't work I'll just get a block of wood, finnish it off nice and pretty, epoxy the upper to it and have a cool pencilholder.....

AoD
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:35:12 PM EST
Thank you for the heads up about Vulcan, and for being big enough to inform the community at the risk of public ridicule.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:59:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By AoD:

If someone out there bought a Vulcan upper on my recommendation, you had to know what you were doing and you made your own decision. If you bought right from Vulcan, you didn't lose more than ~$55. If you don't mind the loss of accuracy, and tweaked it with some epoxy or JB Weld, you're not out anything.


Hope you didn't think I meant anything serious by my earlier post.....I did get it because you recomended it, but it was all an experiment anyway......if it doesn't work I'll just get a block of wood, finnish it off nice and pretty, epoxy the upper to it and have a cool pencilholder.....

AoD

No offense taken. It's a hobby!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:24:02 AM EST
I purchased my set to build a dedicated rimfire rifle so flexing shouldn't be a problem, but I was long since concerned about the CH latch area. I think a little prudent tinkering should take care of that problem and I'll still be good to go.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:51:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:
Id have trouble trusting a plastic upper. A lower on the other hand is a different story.

Hesse plastic lowers rock the house and ya'll need to quit hatin and get wit da program



Yup. Hesse lowers are very under rated.

How's that working out for you Johnny?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:42:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By BigJ491:

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:
Id have trouble trusting a plastic upper. A lower on the other hand is a different story.

Hesse plastic lowers rock the house and ya'll need to quit hatin and get wit da program



Yup. Hesse lowers are very under rated.

How's that working out for you Johnny?



Well I shot alot this weekend with my new car stock on it and ran into some problems. With the increased recoil from the smaller buffer and spring the plastic threads for the buffer tube didnt like all the bumping and so forth. The stock and tube started to tilt slightly which made the bolt carrier not want to slide back into the buffer tube.

I put the A2 stock back on since it was more sturdy and didnt have any problems. I think I can bore that buffer tube hole out in the lower enough to make a threaded aluminum insert to go in its place. Then I was thinking of making a smaller 1/4-20 tapped hole just below it if I have enough material in the lower to help keep the car stock firm.

I'll figure out a way for sure though. Still no regrets.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:22:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:

Originally Posted By BigJ491:

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:
Id have trouble trusting a plastic upper. A lower on the other hand is a different story.

Hesse plastic lowers rock the house and ya'll need to quit hatin and get wit da program



Yup. Hesse lowers are very under rated.

How's that working out for you Johnny?



Well I shot alot this weekend with my new car stock on it and ran into some problems. With the increased recoil from the smaller buffer and spring the plastic threads for the buffer tube didnt like all the bumping and so forth. The stock and tube started to tilt slightly which made the bolt carrier not want to slide back into the buffer tube.

I put the A2 stock back on since it was more sturdy and didnt have any problems. I think I can bore that buffer tube hole out in the lower enough to make a threaded aluminum insert to go in its place. Then I was thinking of making a smaller 1/4-20 tapped hole just below it if I have enough material in the lower to help keep the car stock firm.

I'll figure out a way for sure though. Still no regrets.



Good to hear. I heard you got a hell of a deal on it.

I still have that gold plated fixed collapsible stock if you want it....hehehe
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:56:58 AM EST
I remember that thread, long ago...no one seemed to reply, tho:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=198206
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 10:28:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 10:31:35 AM EST by Ky_Bob]

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:
Id have trouble trusting a plastic upper. A lower on the other hand is a different story.

Hesse plastic lowers rock the house and ya'll need to quit hatin and get wit da program



'Tis true!
Johhny, I saw your earlier post about the carbine stock causing problems. I have always had a pre-ban non-collapsable stock on mine with no problem. I now have a collapsable on it with still no problem. Are you saying it tilted to one side or what?

Bob
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:48:49 PM EST
Yes KY-Bob. Its tilting in the 12 o'clock position. I took the buffer tube out and could see some of the threads tore up. I know I didnt cross thread it when I installed it and I know they were in good shape when I installed it. I can tell you that the rifle was making my shoulder sore after awhile and I cant figure out why. I shot maybe 250 rounds that day.

I did take a 16" heavy barrel and turn it down to a lightwieght like yours though. I wonder if the shortering of the gas port gave it too much recoil?

BigJ: yes it was a very sweet deal but that doesnt compel me to buy your gold plated fixed colt tele-stock I dont have enough money because I found a guy while I was at K-mart thats selling me cinergy field stadium for $100!

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:08:10 PM EST
Wish you had posted this BEFORE I got mine lol. One of these days, I should finish that rifle...but this post sorta takes the wind out of my sales to do this. It's all YOUR fault!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:37:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 3:51:24 PM EST by ebgb68]
Carbine_man
I received the upper in the mail today thanks. I was going to put it in my "parts box" when I seen a charging handle. I decided to slide the handle in to see if it would latch and it did?
The charging handle is a Colt brand and the handle will not slip.
Do you think your charging handle was at fault? The piece is missing where it latches but the catch still holds firm.
If you want the same deal I will send it back.....
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:03:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By ebgb68:
Carbine_man
I received the upper in the mail today thanks. I was going to put it in my "parts box" when I seen a charging handle. I decided to slide the handle in to see if it would latch and it did?
The charging handle is a Colt brand and the handle will not slip.
Do you think your charging handle was at fault? The piece is missing where it latches but the catch still holds firm.
If you want the same deal I will send it back.....
my.voyager.net/~ebgb68/Carbine_mansJunk.jpg

Yes, send it back with the rest of the rifle and I'll consider it even for all the trouble you caused me.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:30:30 PM EST
One step closer to a low buck beater
60.00 lower
40.00 lower parts kit
15.00 non colasping butt stock
85.00 bolt and carrier
40.00 A2 sight
I feel like I spent too much on these parts....
Thanks again For the part
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:19:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:22:38 PM EST by AK_Mike]

Originally Posted By ebgb68:
Carbine_man
I received the upper in the mail today thanks. I was going to put it in my "parts box" when I seen a charging handle. I decided to slide the handle in to see if it would latch and it did?
The charging handle is a Colt brand and the handle will not slip.
Do you think your charging handle was at fault? The piece is missing where it latches but the catch still holds firm.



edgb68, reread the original post, pertinent quote "The little dimple that the charge handle latch grabs has worn to the point that it won't hold."

There was nothing wrong with his charging handle or receiver, it simply wore to the point where there is no longer enough of a catch for the latch to hold onto. This happens even on standard aluminum receivers, it just takes a lot longer. Yours will wear too, the more you use it the faster you will get there. I think instead of something fancy, I may take some really thin SS and fashion a reinforcement plate - much like what people have made to cover MG trunnion covers to prevent wear from metal links or small plates to inforce plastic feedlips on magazines. I'm hoping a super adhesive or epoxy will be enough to hold it in place. It's either that or bore a hole and insert a pin.

Keep a close eye on the latch catch and note how it wears over time. If you are careful when you pull the CH and squeeze the latch first, you will give yourself more time before it's worn too badly to keep the CH in place upon firing.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:36:59 PM EST
This is Carbine_Mans upper.
I installed a new charging handle and it grabs fine. I was tryin to give it back but he won't take it back.
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