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Posted: 6/12/2007 4:47:56 PM EST
Ok, just a senerio, shit has hit the fan and zombies are out & about.

You have enemies with bolt action rifles after you, all you have is your AR15.

How well do you think you'll fare against such attackers, counter ambush?

Possibly out gunned them with fire power?

Do you think you could be a good sniper with your current AR configuration?

I guess this could be worded better, but you get the idea.

TG

Link Posted: 6/12/2007 4:52:53 PM EST
Depends on what type of set up their bolt action is. Is it a worn out .22 single shot or are they skilled shooters with a decent set up? My AR currently has an ACOG with BDC out to 800 meters and I can say that this set up is sub minute of man accurate out to 600 meters but I've never shot further than that. The chances are not in my favor the further away they are but as long as I am not in the desert where they can see me a long way off I would stand a chance being very careful with my concealment until I am able to set a counter ambush of some sort.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 4:54:06 PM EST
I guess that depends. How good is this enemy with his weapon? What caliber is it? I have an EOTech 552, so I'd pretty much be screwed if he was more than 100 to 200 yards out, and had, say a scoped 30-06 or a 300 ultra.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:02:50 PM EST
There is no difference between an AR and a bolt gun in accuracy. So what is the dang question?
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:07:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2007 5:08:07 PM EST by Dusty_C]

Originally Posted By pigmy:
There is no difference between an AR and a bolt gun in accuracy. So what is the dang question?


IF they AR is Accurized very well then that is true. Out of the box, not so much*

*In most cases.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:10:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2007 5:11:42 PM EST by KIDGLOCK]
Mind set will win the fight .

Its the first hit that wins .
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:12:23 PM EST
I guess in an urban environment, an AR would have the edge due to higher rate of fire and possibly faster target acquisition at close range. This is assuming the enemy has a scoped rifle (like all people that I know with a bolt action). In the open, I think things would be a little different. Most bolt actions I've seen around here are, like I said before, 30-06 or something close. At long range or even in the brush, I think they would perform much better than a 5.56/.223.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:18:39 PM EST
I think you have the advantage overall.

We don't know much about your AR set up (m-4, A-2, ???)

Play to your strengths and don't go walking out then standing around in the open with a clear line of sight. Think Deer Hunting and You don't want to be Bambi

I have a EoTech on my 20" A-4 and with the 1moa center dot can hit a full sized target at 300 every time.

I have a GG&G quick mount and can swap on a 1.5 X 4.5 scope and do well to 500. His advantage is what again? Distance? Power? Accuracy? Don't play his game, make him play yours

BIGGER_HAMMER




Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:33:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blaze81:
I guess that depends. How good is this enemy with his weapon? What caliber is it? I have an EOTech 552, so I'd pretty much be screwed if he was more than 100 to 200 yards out, and had, say a scoped 30-06 or a 300 ultra.


Don't get out much do you.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:36:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2007 5:36:32 PM EST by JackBurton]
Check to see what weapon is winning at the National Matches...

I would not feel undergunned with my 20" setup, 68 grain match ammo, an NM iron sights.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:47:19 PM EST
Get a good upper that shoots 75-77 grain and then don't worry about it. My Rock Rivers shoot under moa with BH ammo.
JR
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:52:08 PM EST
I'd just send the wife out to kick their sorry zombie zohoes. I've nicknamed the little lady Howitzer. She is certainly my favorite piece of heavy munitions.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:56:36 PM EST
If multiple people armed with bolt action rifles are stalking me and they want a fight, I will go off and hide somewhere.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:56:49 PM EST
I've thought about the gladiator position when they say here are some weapons...go at it!

Carbine vs sniper rig:

You would have to play sniper/counter sniper, employing same stealth and tactics until you can get in range. If he sees you first, and he misses his shot and you can locate his position, then he is rather fucked. Keep pouring the lead on, fire and maneuver, and let him try to acquire a fast moving/zig-zagging target under fire. (Just don't zig when you should have zagged)

I would run like a motherfucker if someone missed me with a bolt gun. Not away, but towards his position. Change the range, change the direction, drop to the prone every 15yds ("I'm up he sees me I'm down") and put down suppressing fire...
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 5:58:02 PM EST
it depends on the person and the head on there shoulders

make your advantage his weakest point
he has range, so put things/landmarks/dense vegitation/hills between you while moving closer
move in on a firefight, the closer you move the less effective he will be with a higher power optic at close ranges, an taking the time to stop an get a bead is a dangerous thing when your throwing out lead
he only has a few shots before reload, you have alot of firepower compared to a bolt gun so use it but only when you have become compromised

when in a firefight, i would move in and close as much distance as i could because a bolt gun cant throw back the same firepower you can lay out

its all about using your brain...and not for a target
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 6:01:11 PM EST
I would employ my boxer first to stink em out then I would use my A2 on em...
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 6:06:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By vengarr:
If multiple people armed with bolt action rifles are stalking me and they want a fight, I will go off and hide somewhere.


I kinda agree.

If multiple BGs are after my tail, they better be good runners 'cause I ain't sticking around for the shoot out.

I'm not into fighting numerically superior forces.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 6:56:48 PM EST
If they were any good, and ruthless, you'd hear the shot after it blew out your guts. Nonstarter. It's not the quality of the guitar, it's the quality of the player. You can be all the Rambo you want, with a 6.8 laser guided, auto ranging MF, but a 14 year old with a Model 64 could own your ass under the right circumstances. (Which could occur easily if TSHTF for real.)

Countersniping is an art in itself and it isn't easy to identify where the shot is coming from. Move to cover is what I would do...but there are places here in the west where there just ain't no cover, or very little, and you'd better hope you guessed right on direction of that first shot that missed you. Every damn deerhunter has the potential to be your worst enemy. It has nothing to do with quality of weaponry, everything to do with tactical advantage. There's a reason the military works in teams.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 7:22:14 PM EST
Best bet is use sniper tactics. Lay in wait in a brushy or urban area, wait for the zombies to get with in range then open fire. Bolt action weapons are slower and require more reloads. Shoot straight and stay on the move. Long range scopes are basicly ineffective in CQC, so you have the advantage. Just dont stay in the open for too long, they may have an over watch looking for you.

Dat-gum zombies can be smart, so use the force to guide you and dont allow your feelings to overwhelm you, that leads to the Dark Side...
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 7:28:55 PM EST
Grab your tool and run to the nearest pay phone and call up Hannibal and B.A. and get the A team after their ass. Maybe call up the Equalizer as well, he is pretty good at that shit I hear.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 7:50:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By vengarr:
If multiple people armed with bolt action rifles are stalking me and they want a fight, I will go off and hide somewhere.


I think you will live longer than most. Some of the things I've read here sound like the videos of the dumbasses you see on the internet walking down the middle of the street holding the trigger down on their AK, and then head explodes.

Link Posted: 6/12/2007 7:50:43 PM EST
Is he ready to kill or not? are you? Or you just slinking around looking Tacticool? If someone wants to own ya they can.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 7:51:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By vengarr:
If multiple people armed with bolt action rifles are stalking me and they want a fight, I will go off and hide somewhere.
All other things being equal, whoever sees his or her opponent first is probably going to win.

I'd lay low, choose the terrain carefully, rely on good fieldcraft and let the terrain funnel the target to me for the first and only shot. With multiple targets, I'd want a shooting position that allowed a max of 2 quick shots and then a safe means to withdraw behind cover to the next position to set up the next one or two kills.

Being smart, I would shoose to fight on anything close to even terms with anyone, and to slug it out at long range with someone with a good bolt gun, good optics and the ability to use them is not anywhere close to even being even. Adding multiple shooters to the scenario and then trying to play Rambo is just plain stupid.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 8:01:58 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By TexasGunman:
Ok, just a senerio, shit has hit the fan and zombies are out & about.

You have enemies with bolt action rifles after you, all you have is your AR15.

How well do you think you'll fare against such attackers, counter ambush?




Are we talking about zombies? Zombies with bolt guns? I'm confident my ability with my stock AR carbine will out gun any zombie snipers. I'd feel safe with a staple gun against zombie snipers. Wobbly, undead freaks!
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 8:09:49 PM EST
Does the bolt gun have an Eotech? fast target accusition and accuracy is key.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 8:48:19 PM EST
You'd be surpised at just how fast someone with a bolt gun can be on the follow up shot(s).
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 8:57:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hunterex:
You'd be surpised at just how fast someone with a bolt gun can be on the follow up shot(s).


It's not the follow up shots that worry me
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 9:07:52 PM EST
There are some real-life situations to reference.

Garands were "better" firearms than Mauser rifles or Arisakas for infantry. A good semi-auto beat a bolt action for foot soldiers. Mauser rifles were/are more robust. But the Garand was the better weapon.

Carlos Hathcock with a bolt action Remington 700 and a 9x scope at 700 yards, in a one-on-one situation, won over a lot of semi and full auto rifles.

Are you allowed to hide behind trees? ;-)
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 9:37:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By BR_Addict:

Originally Posted By Hunterex:
You'd be surpised at just how fast someone with a bolt gun can be on the follow up shot(s).


It's not the follow up shots that worry me


No, I agree with you. But several of the last posts before mine were talking about what to do if the first incoming round was a miss.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 9:41:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By FN1889M:

Carlos Hathcock with a bolt action Remington 700 and a 9x scope at 700 yards, in a one-on-one situation, won over a lot of semi and full auto rifles.

Are you allowed to hide behind trees? ;-)



I believe Hathcock used a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 with a Unertl scope.

The rifleman that trains the most will win in the battle between bolt gun and auto-loader, and trees are good but a hide is better.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 9:53:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2007 10:09:51 PM EST by FN1889M]
I believe Hathcock used the Winchester early in his service, then the Remington later in his career.

The point is that against a trained sniper, it probably does not matter what rifle you have. You will never see the shooter if he sees you first.

The advantage of a bolt action rifle is realized when the shots are 300M plus. Below that range, it probably does not matter for the first shot.

Link Posted: 6/12/2007 10:09:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By FN1889M:
Hathcock used the Winchester early in his service, then the Remington later in his career. In fact, he favored the Remington .308 over the M70 .30-06.



No kidding. I have read several book about him and didn't recall that being mentioned. Thanks, the things you can learn on this site are never ending!
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 10:12:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2007 10:19:33 PM EST by FN1889M]
I edited my post before I read this. But I recall reading an interview of Hathcock in which he stated that he preferred the Remington, and was unimpressed with "controlled feed". He thought the Remington 700 was a good action.

In any event, I like bolt actions. I would not feel under-gunned with a .308 and 6x scope or even peep sights. But i still think the M16 is the more effective rifle in general. Or we would be arming troops with bolt actions today.

Going back to the original post (but ignoring the zombie motif), there is probably a difference between selecting a rifle for one person whose goal is evasion, and selecting a rifle for an army.



Link Posted: 6/12/2007 10:17:08 PM EST
This is a mindset and tactics issue, not a gear issue.

I know of at least one incident where aggressive action led men in suits with handguns to success against a sniper with a long range rifle. They closed the distance, burst into his hide and did the deed up close.
Link Posted: 6/12/2007 11:58:30 PM EST
Just one? two in the chest, one in the head. Multiple ones? Hose them down and roll back. On your own, no firearm gives you a good chance to duke it out against multiple armed foes.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 3:55:48 AM EST



i live in a heavily wooded area. in fact, much of the state of maine is still heavily wooded.

in areas like i live, a scoped bolt gun in a good cartridge is a disadvantage at best. it doesn't really matter if you can take game at 800 M if you can only *see* 15 M...


Link Posted: 6/13/2007 4:28:31 AM EST
Well I have both and in the situation you describe I'm grabing my bolt action first, given time enough I might have an AR laying next to me with a drum in it.

I am USMC infantry Vietnam vet and I have shot lots of semi and full auto but I would chose the bolt gun first. I don't spray and pray I take aimed shots.

I know some folks can make long shots with their ARs but it's a lighter bullet and it makes a lot more noise BECAUSE it's semi operated, thus possibily giving away you position.

If you make the first shot and it's placed well it doesn't matter but as you know in the situation you describe targets move you can miss with anything and you may have exposed yourself with the action cycle after you shoot.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 4:40:47 AM EST
The USMC M1903A1 w/Unertl averaged 3.5" groups at 600 yards with 30-06 match ammo. Try that with a .223 AR.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 5:42:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cannonball888:
The USMC M1903A1 w/Unertl averaged 3.5" groups at 600 yards with 30-06 match ammo. Try that with a .223 AR.


It's being done every day hoss
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 5:45:21 AM EST
I'm good for a torso hit to 800 yds w/ a 20" h-bar w/ 855PD. I'm good to 500 w/ the same 62 grain load w/ a delton 16" M4 profile. smae torso sized steel target.

Both w/ iron sights.

As long as I see them first, should be ok.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 5:51:23 AM EST
If you act like a range commando your dead, even if the other guy has a bow and arrow. Then he has a new AR Ak. Now I have a machine gun. HO.HO.HO.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 5:54:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2007 6:03:12 AM EST by hi-tech-rancher]
In almost any SHTF scenario I can imagine, I would take BOTH with me.

I would have my Leupold 3-10 X 50 scoped 6mm Remington 700 with about 50 rounds of ammo. That is a one-shot-one kill gun, so there's perhaps 35 dead zombies right there, presuming the chance to use sniper tactics, good cover, and hopefully, a better knowledge of the terrain upon which we're fighting than that possessed by the enemy.

My 6mm is very light, about 6 lbs. I can sling it and run miles with it. But I would set it aside once the battle is closer than 50 meters, especially if the zombies were running. My 6.8 SPC AR is light, 7 lbs, and can deploy NVD's with aplomb. This gives me distinct advantages.

1) bolt gun could be deployed for longer range, and if they decided to keep closing, they would lose more of their ranks

2) as I closed the distance, I would then switch to the 6.8, once speed of target acquisition became paramount. Even at 200-300 meters, the 6.8 with Eotech will hold its own against "deer guns." And then, once within 100 m, with just a few zombies left standing, again with decent cover, the AR platform would have the advantage.

3) If I knew I was totally out numbered and stood little chance in a direct engagement, I would evade until nightfall, and tear them to shreds with my NVD's. Scoped rifles at night are WORTHLESS. If they tried using a spot light, they're toast.

There are few deer hunters that know how to use their scoped bolt gun, offhand or running, at moving targets, especially within 50 yards, let alone post-Katrina looters that stole the guns. Or let's say the "zombies" are a drug gang invading Laredo or Corpus Christi. I have to wonder if they would know how to shoot bolt action rifles in so many different situations. They would have a distinct disadvantage with those guns under those circumstances, even out in the open.


Do away with the AR's main disadvantage.....buy a 6.8 SPC!!

ETA; flame suit on...in before the 6.5 Grendel crowd says that 6.5 is a better "sniper" round. Technically it is, since the 6.8 doesn't have high BC bullets avail YET. That is why I would have my 6mm, anyway. .243 is even beating .308, (and 9 of the top 20 in last badlands sniper competition used .243)....hmmmm, guess that's why I have always loved my 6mm Rem.


Link Posted: 6/13/2007 5:57:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cannonball888:
The USMC M1903A1 w/Unertl averaged 3.5" groups at 600 yards with 30-06 match ammo. Try that with a .223 AR.


Aww shit! You done did it!
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 6:05:30 AM EST
Where I live there are lots of hills and those hills are covered in tree's.
Very thick vegetation. So a person with a bolt action won't be able to make very long distance shots ,so I would have an advantage with my AR.
There is plenty of places that I could set up ambushes.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 6:32:40 AM EST
Like I said before, it all depends on equipment and tactics. I hear alot of people talking about tactics, but Im thinking most people with weapons do not have military, LE (or even just instructed) training. Although I am sure some of you do. I'll be the first to admit, Im probably not very skilled when it comes to armed combat and small arms "tactics". My best bet would be to stay away, especially when being possibly outmanned and/or outgunned.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 6:40:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2007 6:48:04 AM EST by DM1975]
None of that shit matters. I dont care if I have a Ruger 10/22, barring any fuckups by me, I am going to do my very best to kill your ass, then it all boils down to who screws up or gets lucky first. I knew a guy that had been shot through his lung with an AK and still held off advance after advance of company sized elements by himself for hours untill rescued. You can have all the advantage in the world but if you dont have the skill then you aint gonna win unless you luck out. It is amazing what one motivated, well trained individual with a gun can do.

I have said it on here time and time again, if you dont know how to use the equipment properly then you are going to be one of the bodies lying around that the skilled men will have to jump over in the fight. So you all can go out and get your deer rifles (of which I have several myself) or your fancy M4 (which again I also have) and run around with you range gear on and you are probably still going to die. Simple truth is most guys on here dreaming of their SHTF scenarios dont have enough training to know which targets to fire on first, let alone how to maneuver to the target from what I read on here. You are all worried about equipment and I have only seen a handful of guys on here mention mindset or training. Not to mention, can you maneuver under stress with all that ammo, weapons array, and equipment properly?

Another thing, what is the level of training of the bad guys? If they are well organized and disciplined then you will not beat them by yourself with limited skills, I dont care how many Rambo movies you have analized for the most effective kill techniques. Simple fact is that if they have good cohesion from proper training and you have just taken a carbine course or something else like that that is so highly advocated on here then you are going to die. I dont care how much gear or equipment youn have or how far someone can shoot "ON A RANGE" accurately. Shooting and moving is difficult, shooting and moving fast enough to live is even more difficult, and shooting and moving fast while getting shot at will smoke your ass even if you are a track star and a competition shooter.

Just my $0.02
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 6:41:06 AM EST
BINGO, we have a winner!!! That is the most correct answer I have heard on here yet.


Originally Posted By Blaze81:
Like I said before, it all depends on equipment and tactics. I hear alot of people talking about tactics, but Im thinking most people with weapons do not have military, LE (or even just instructed) training. Although I am sure some of you do. I'll be the first to admit, Im probably not very skilled when it comes to armed combat and small arms "tactics". My best bet would be to stay away, especially when being possibly outmanned and/or outgunned.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 7:24:33 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
height=8
Originally Posted By Cannonball888:
The USMC M1903A1 w/Unertl averaged 3.5" groups at 600 yards with 30-06 match ammo. Try that with a .223 AR.


It's being done every day hossPost your source. Even if it were true, considerable energy is lost at this distance for .223 which is the primary reason some people like ARs in .308. As for 30-06, a target ain't getting up after being hit with this round.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 7:38:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blaze81:
I guess that depends. How good is this enemy with his weapon? What caliber is it? I have an EOTech 552, so I'd pretty much be screwed if he was more than 100 to 200 yards out, and had, say a scoped 30-06 or a 300 ultra.


Thats silly. I qualify on and can routinly hit man sized targets up to and past 300 meters with an Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 8:57:00 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By NIU_Scout:
height=8
Originally Posted By Blaze81:
I guess that depends. How good is this enemy with his weapon? What caliber is it? I have an EOTech 552, so I'd pretty much be screwed if he was more than 100 to 200 yards out, and had, say a scoped 30-06 or a 300 ultra.


Thats silly. I qualify on and can routinly hit man sized targets up to and past 300 meters with an Aimpoint.


It may be for you, but I am well aware of my own limitations. I have never even tried to hit a target (let alone a moving one possibly firing back at me) 300 meters away. I'm pretty sure I could, but I just dont know because I've never done it. This is why I would just stay away...
Link Posted: 6/13/2007 2:11:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cannonball888:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By Cannonball888:
The USMC M1903A1 w/Unertl averaged 3.5" groups at 600 yards with 30-06 match ammo. Try that with a .223 AR.


It's being done every day hoss

Post your source. Even if it were true, considerable energy is lost at this distance for .223 which is the primary reason some people like ARs in .308. As for 30-06, a target ain't getting up after being hit with this round.
I do have a life outside the internets I go out and see things.

AR's are being used occaisonally to compete up to 1000 yards and are holding their own. We have several board members here that own ARs in 5.56/.223 that will punch that sized group at 600 and beyond. In fact, any with a WOA barrel and quality parts and good glass should do it with match ammo. Which reminds me, I need to finish my SPR
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