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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 1/1/2004 6:17:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 6:18:25 AM EST by urbankaos04]
I just bought the latest SureFire Combat Tactics magazine.  I was flipping through the magazine when  Travis Mitchell's article, Get Some!, caught my attention.  It addresses the gear that is and isn't working out in Iraq.  Some of the stuff this guy said was sure interesting...and entertaining.

On the M4 Battle Rifle: "...this modular rail system [ARMS SIR] does not get hot after six magazines-unlike the over-priced Knight Armament rail which is notorious for frying your hand." (pg. 84)  Uh, so that means you don't like KAC's rail system?  Heh, heh...

He also went on to criticize the "stopping power" of the round (M885) citing that "soldiers engaged threats four and five times to get them to stop the fight."

Well, isn't this dismal performance more attributed to the fact that the M4 has a 14.5" barrels.  As I recall, a review of the performance of this round over at Maryland AR15 showed that soldiers with 20" barreled rifles didn't have these problems (regarding the Somalia incident).  I know that the M855 can't compare to the new heavier match bullets, but from what I understand it also isn't THAT bad when used in a rifle with a 16"-20" barrel.

Close Combat Optics: "Soldiers from the Special Forces found they like the C-More sight.  Operators found they like how you do not have to look through a tube and that you have an field of view.  The C-More performed very well for them." (pg. 86)  

And here's my favorite:

Magazines: "Combat-savvy troops download the 30-round banana clips by two rounds.  Down-loading by one allows the mag to be seated easily if the bolt in in battery, but removing just one round makes the first round feed from the left side of the magazine.  The most reliable feedway is from the right side of an M16 magazine..." (pg. 89).
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:37:45 AM EST
HAHAHA


Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:46:06 AM EST
Even though I use ARMS SIR, I second "HAHAHA"
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:03:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 8:04:16 AM EST by Green0]
"On the M4 Battle Rifle: "...this modular rail system [ARMS SIR] does not get hot after six magazines-unlike the over-priced Knight Armament rail which is notorious for frying your hand." (pg. 84) Uh, so that means you don't like KAC's rail system? Heh, heh..."

Yeah go try and mount an ACOG on a SIR.  (If it was dedicated aimpoint only I would accept the extra weight and gladly take a SIR), but if I go anywhere there will be an ACOG on my M4.

The heat shield on the KAC M4 RAS supposedly keeps heat noticeably down to 100rds of rapid fire, and then starts to heat rapidly being noticeably hotter than no heat shield at all at 180rds.  I guess the Army thought most troops would not need to use more than 180rds often enough to negate the need for the heat shield.

In light of what I have heard from Iraq (many of my friends writing back that they have killed 2 or 3 Iraqi terrorists so far in their 12 month deployments (probably no more than 6 rds ever fired in one encounter)- my guess would be the Army wasn't too far off.

[b]I would venture to guess that downloading mags by 2 rds is more a superstition than a fact caused practice[/b], I've never had problems with even the crappiest of military range mags loaded to full capacity. (except the old black follower mags that you can load a 31st rd into, that 31st rd is really wedged in there and will neccessitate rapping the forward assist.)
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:35:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Green0:
Yeah go try and mount an ACOG on a SIR.  (If it was dedicated aimpoint only I would accept the extra weight and gladly take a SIR), but if I go anywhere there will be an ACOG on my M4.
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[img]http://home.comcast.net/~vocenoctum/gun/M4ACOG.JPG[/img]
The compact ACOG special ring fits pretty well.
Not everyone likes the compacts FOV, but it's fine for me. :)



[b]I would venture to guess that downloading mags by 2 rds is more a superstition than a fact caused practice[/b], I've never had problems with even the crappiest of military range mags loaded to full capacity.
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At least he has the "load it down one so they fit in the gun easier" instead of just saying to load them light for "reliability". :)
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:42:40 AM EST
It sounded like he was talking about reliability with the ("right side of the mag feeds smoother than the left") I don't know where he got that idea. (I guess that distracted me from the other comment.)

The right ramp of some AKs is ramped while the left is not and that actually does make the right ramp feed better than the left. (interestingly enough the Chinese drums are made to feed all ammo from the right side, making them the most reliable feed mechanism for these half-assed AK's).

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:00:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 9:02:27 AM EST by Va_Dinger]
Sounds like the entire article is pure fantasy.


[b]
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
On the M4 Battle Rifle: "...this modular rail system [ARMS SIR] does not get hot after six magazines-unlike the over-priced Knight Armament rail which is notorious for frying your hand." (pg. 84)
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[/b]

No offense meant to ARMS, but I'd love for someone to show me just ONE picture of a SIR mounted on a U.S. military rifle that isn't just a Surefire employee dressed up as an operator.



[b]
Close Combat Optics: "Soldiers from the Special Forces found they like the C-More sight.  Operators found they like how you do not have to look through a tube and that you have an field of view.  The C-More performed very well for them." (pg. 86)
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[/b]

Same goes for the C-more sight. Show me just one picture! Its pure fantasy.

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:06:53 AM EST
Remember, the whole magazine is an ad for Surefire and their advertising 'partners', not factual reporting.  The sad part is there are people who believe it...
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:17:19 AM EST
Don't forget Surefire and ARMS are business partners. Surefire have been using ARMS mount on their products.

Regarding the C-More, I've seen a pic of C-More used by a SF dude in Afgan. I will post that pic next week (back from hoilday).
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:02:41 PM EST
Actually I think you will find that they are not partners at all and that if you read gov't requirerments to many companies, you will see that the throw levers are specified on many dif. products.
There are a lot of spec ops people with C-More optic's, just because they are not in pic's yet, means nothing other than the operators can't be photographed, yet! Reason for that is that certain equipment can identify who they are and what kind of mission they are on, to all the wrong people, and that it is not only the SIR's not being shown, it's other things too.
Time will show that a lot of ney sayers will have to admit they shouldn't ever rely on the news media as the see and know all source of info:)
Jack
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:21:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
There are a lot of spec ops people with C-More optic's, just because they are not in pic's yet, means nothing other than the operators can't be photographed, yet! Reason for that is that certain equipment can identify who they are and what kind of mission they are on, to all the wrong people, and that it is not only the SIR's not being shown, it's other things too.
Time will show that a lot of ney sayers will have to admit they shouldn't ever rely on the news media as the see and know all source of info:)
Jack
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Let me just start out by saying that I mean absolutely no offense to yourself or to ARMS. But, didn't we hear this same exact statement before both the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns?
I personally have seen literly thousands of photograghs from both these campaigns. Photographs of everthing from U.S. Army light+Mechanized Infantry, Mountain, Airborne, and Special forces. U.S. Marines+Including Force Recon. U.S. Navy SEALS teams,  and even more secretive units that were out in the open doing V.I.P protection and or filling the ranks of special groups like Task Force 20. I have seen plenty of other ARMS products, but certianly no SIRS.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:29:49 PM EST
JAck,

Regardless the C-More tactical is a POS - you have admitted that fact before.

Keep in mind many HSLD units till use the RIS on their carbines - so just cause so and so uses it does not make it the latest greatest things since sliced bread.  Manyof those guys woudl be better served by a FFRAS or RASII - but the RIS is in their system.

As far as heat goes - I burned my hand on a SIR that had been left in the sun too long...
When bullets fly who the fuck know where you got that cut or burn.



I do agree with Jack on the spec'ing of Lights and NV with the thumb levers, and I think it is a great idea.
 I would love a KAC Universal Knightscope with ARMS thumblevers.  (pretty please)



Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:28:01 PM EST
I am pointing out that there are operators and systems out there that have not been authorized to be photographed or their names, faces and or equipments photo published. I know this as FACT! I do not like the C-more, any more than some other things, but there are products I do like, and some I am neutral on, but that isn't the topic I responded to. What I or anyone not over there likes, doesn't matter to the folk carrying it, it's their choice some times for a mission, sometimes because it was expedient, etc., espec in the Spec Ops community. Time will show a lot of reverlations in harware and why with the after action reports, and only some of those will be published after being cleared up the chain.
                                          Kev: As to throw levers that a lot of us like for good reasons, I'm sure that if there is a requirement, anyone can buy them.
Jack
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 3:03:07 PM EST
Roger that.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 11:42:35 PM EST
"On the M4 [b]Battle Rifle[/b]"....?

[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:50:51 AM EST

 I would love a KAC Universal Knightscope with ARMS thumblevers.



View Quote


When I win a Super Lotto.

Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:02:00 AM EST
That night scope is real nice and it's also big, they would need a SIR system to make it all work properly:)
Jack
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:27:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zardoz:
"On the M4 [b]Battle Rifle[/b]"....?

[rolleyes]
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That's what the author of the article called the M4...not me.  Just thought I'd clear up that little tid bit...
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:55:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By Zardoz:
"On the M4 [b]Battle Rifle[/b]"....?

[rolleyes]
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That's what the author of the article called the M4...not me.  Just thought I'd clear up that little tid bit...
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Oh, I knew that; hope you didn't mistake my meaning.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 4:47:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By amuroray:

 I would love a KAC Universal Knightscope with ARMS thumblevers.



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For your info, our (KAC's) Universal Knight Scope are delivered to the US Gov with our own "throw levers".  There is one lever per UNS.  They are unique in that they can be adjusted by a trained Operator to tighten properly on non-standard rails.
Another unique feature of KAC's "throw" levers is that there is a lever-latch that engages automatically when they are closed that keeps the lever from being inadvertently lifted up.  The design is such that when you reach to detach the UNS, the natural action between your thumb and index finger both depresses the lever-latch, and lifts the locking lever.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 8:28:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2004 8:28:51 PM EST by DevL]
Is KAC considering mass production of these type of throw lever mounts?  Got any pics or drawings?  Sounds very interesting.
Link Posted: 1/4/2004 4:16:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By coldblue:
For your info, our (KAC's) Universal Knight Scope are delivered to the US Gov with our own "throw levers".  There is one lever per UNS.  They are unique in that they can be adjusted by a trained Operator to tighten properly on non-standard rails.
Another unique feature of KAC's "throw" levers is that there is a lever-latch that engages automatically when they are closed that keeps the lever from being inadvertently lifted up.  The design is such that when you reach to detach the UNS, the natural action between your thumb and index finger both depresses the lever-latch, and lifts the locking lever.
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Need more info, pics and access to these!!!
Link Posted: 1/4/2004 4:31:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By DevL:
Is KAC considering mass production of these type of throw lever mounts?  Got any pics or drawings?  Sounds very interesting.
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Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Need more info, pics and access to these!!!
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Yeah! Pics? [wave] [bounce]
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