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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/27/2005 12:04:49 PM EDT
I have four USGI mags (Center Ind.) that are date stamped 8/91. Two of them are still in the wrap.

Remind me - that's pre-ban, correct?

I saw a post on the EE where some guys are selling off their pre-ban mags to our friends in the still-banned states for the cost or a new mag or in trade for a new mag. I thought I'd join that party to help out the CA, NJ, MA, etc guys, but wanted to make sure these are pre-ban.

Also - can I legally mail these mags to those states?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:35:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chp5:
I have four USGI mags (Center Ind.) that are date stamped 8/91. Two of them are still in the wrap.

Remind me - that's pre-ban, correct?

I saw a post on the EE where some guys are selling off their pre-ban mags to our friends in the still-banned states for the cost or a new mag or in trade for a new mag. I thought I'd join that party to help out the CA, NJ, MA, etc guys, but wanted to make sure these are pre-ban.

Also - can I legally mail these mags to those states?

Thanks.



These are preban. Anything date stamped with something prior to 9/94 is preban OR generally any mag that has no marking is considered preban. Although Ive heard some of the new mags are not date stamped. Also mags stamped LEO or LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY are post ban.

You can legally mail these to NY, I dont know about the other states, except Kalifornia. YOU CANNOT sell these to anybody in California. Sale or transfer of anything over 10 rounds to Commie Callie is illegal.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:35:17 PM EDT
anything made before 9/94 is preban, so you are good to go with sending them to a ban state as long as that state allows that paticular capacity mag. For instance NJ can only have 15rd mags so they would be no good there but somewhere like NY you are good to go.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:52:47 PM EDT
I have to chip in on what the CA law states

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

This does not and cannot control out of state sellers, however most will wisely not even atempt to sell complete mags to CA customers, however it seems that mags in parts form are being offered on some sites.

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 10:33:14 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
So, what's a guy in a still un-free state supposed to do if they have mag bodies date stamped after? Since I have lots of friends in LE and MIL circles, I have a couple. Anyone willing to swap bodies of equivalent wear?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:15:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
So, what's a guy in a still un-free state supposed to do if they have mag bodies date stamped after? Since I have lots of friends in LE and MIL circles, I have a couple. Anyone willing to swap bodies of equivalent wear?



You are in an "un-free" state and you have post ban mags???

If you have LEO or post 9/94 stamped mags and you are not law enforcement I highly recommend you take out the springs, followers, and floorplates and get rid of the mag bodies immediately. Get caught with em and you will be a convicted felon.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:18:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chp5:
Also - can I legally mail these mags to those states?



You can legally mail them anywhere you want! It's the buyers obligation to deal with his whacky laws as he sees fit.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
So, what's a guy in a still un-free state supposed to do if they have mag bodies date stamped after? Since I have lots of friends in LE and MIL circles, I have a couple. Anyone willing to swap bodies of equivalent wear?



I can! Shoot me an IM if you want me to swap. I've done this before for guys that had LE mags during the ban.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:25:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pedro66:
I have to chip in on what the CA law states

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

This does not and cannot control out of state sellers, however most will wisely not even atempt to sell complete mags to CA customers, however it seems that mags in parts form are being offered on some sites.




Dont even think about selling high caps to a commie state. The only way to legally have a high cap magazine in california is if you owned it prior to the ban. In other words they are "grandfathered" in. You cant sell it, give it away, or will it. Sucks to be in California almost as much as it does to be in NY!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:07:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
So, what's a guy in a still un-free state supposed to do if they have mag bodies date stamped after? Since I have lots of friends in LE and MIL circles, I have a couple. Anyone willing to swap bodies of equivalent wear?



You are in an "un-free" state and you have post ban mags???

If you have LEO or post 9/94 stamped mags and you are not law enforcement I highly recommend you take out the springs, followers, and floorplates and get rid of the mag bodies immediately. Get caught with em and you will be a convicted felon.




This is too much trouble. I'm just gonna give 'em to an LEO buddy of mine so they can add 'em to their inventory.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:40:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Dont even think about selling high caps to a commie state. The only way to legally have a high cap magazine in california is if you owned it prior to the ban. In other words they are "grandfathered" in. You cant sell it, give it away, or will it. Sucks to be in California almost as much as it does to be in NY!



Not a flame, but...

How on God's Green Earth would anyone be able to prove ownership time frames on anything like that? It's completely unenforceable unless mags were serial numbered and registered.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:14:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 10:15:36 AM EDT by Bosko]

Originally Posted By ryang @ calguns:

I wrote the CA DOJ a few weeks ago asking for clarification to our hi-cap mag laws. Here is their response:


I am writing in response to your letter (undated) regarding large-capacity ammunition magazines. You had a number of questions:

Q1: Can you import newly manufactured parts to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A1: Yes.

Q2: Are there any restrictions on which parts can and cannot be imported?
A2: No.

Q3: Can you import all the parts of a single hi-cap magazine at once, provided they are unassembled?
A3: Yes.

Q4: Can a California resident travel to another state, purchase a hi-cap magazine in that state, dissassemble it and ship the required replacement parts back to themselves in California?
A4: Penal Code section 12020(a)(2) makes it illegal to import a large capacity magazine into the state of California. If you traveled to another state in order to import a large capacity magazine, you would be guilty of a felony, even if you disassembled the large capacity magazine before returning to California. If you disassembled the large capacity magazine with the intent to use it only as repair parts, you could lawfully bring the parts in to California. In either case, you would test the limits of the law, and be at risk of criminal prosecution.

Q5: Can you replace the magazine body with one marked "For Law Enforcement Only"?
A5: While theoretically you could use such a part to repair a lawfully owned large capacity magazine, most dealers would be unlikely to sell you such a magazine body, unless you were a law enforcement officer.

Q6: Is there any limitation to the number of parts you can replace in a legally obtained hi-cap magazine? (Scenario: if on successive days I replace each individual part of a legally obtained hi-cap magazine, am I guilty of assembling a new hi-cap magazine once the final part is replaced?)
A6: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes repairing or manufacturing a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. There are 58 district attorneys in California's 58 counties. They could elect to prosecute you for a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if they believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

Q7: If the magazine body is replaced with one clearly manufactured after 2000 is there any burden of proof upon a California resident that they did in fact replace a worn/obsolete part and did not illegally purchase/import a new hi-cap magazine.
A7: A California resident who repairs a large capacity magazine that was owned before January 1, 2000 does not have any "burden of proof" that the magazine was repaired, rather than replaced with a new magazine. However, it would be prudent in such a case to keep records documenting the purchase of the part necessary for the repair in order to demonstrate that the large capacity magazine was repaired, not replaced.

Q8: Can you use parts designed for a 10-round magazine to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A8: If parts designed for a 10-round magazine are interchangeable with parts of a legally obtained large capacity magazine, there is no legal barrier to using them.

Q9: Can you have enough spare parts to assemble a new hi-cap magazine provided they are unassembled and intended for use as replacement parts?
A9: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes posession of magazine parts with the intent to manufacture or with the intent to repair a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. You could be charged with a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if a prosecutor believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

I hope that this information was helpful. Please feel free to contact me again if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Alison Merrilees
Deputy Attorney General
Firearms Division

For Bill Lockyer
Attorney General



Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:32:36 AM EDT
Good information.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:43:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 12:47:22 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Dont even think about selling high caps to a commie state. The only way to legally have a high cap magazine in california is if you owned it prior to the ban. In other words they are "grandfathered" in. You cant sell it, give it away, or will it. Sucks to be in California almost as much as it does to be in NY!



Not a flame, but...

How on God's Green Earth would anyone be able to prove ownership time frames on anything like that? It's completely unenforceable unless mags were serial numbered and registered.



That law took effect while the Federal ban was still in force. So actually any magazine without a date stamp or a stamp prior to 9/94 would probably be impossible to prove if there was a transfer. But do you think there will never be a sting operation to try to sell these? Do you think somebody might tattle on you sometime? Do you think you might get caught up in an investigation and they might track down the person you got the mags from OR the person you got them from could get caught selling em and rat you out?

Also think toward the future. For somebody who is now 30 years old they may have very well purchased these legally before the ban, but there is little way of knowing. Imagine 20 years from now, somebody who is 25. This person could not possibly obtained these legally as he would have been born after the ban, hence could never have legally purchased them.

But any magazines now available after the Federal ban would be easily identified. As these magazines are date stamped post 9/94 or stamped "LEO Only", "LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY", and/or "MILTARY USE ONLY". Anyone in the state of California with these mags obviously obtained them post ban. If you have one of these it is a cake walk for any court to give you a brand spankin new Felony conviction in CA. Ive heard there are some post ban mags that do not have markings, some of these manufacturers didnt exist before 2000, and some mags are completely new designs. So these will be obvious too. Not to mention some mag companies have since changed their names (like LaBelle to D&H).

Theres probably a dozen different ways to prove it. If you have dealt with the wrong people in Law Enforcement you would know something crucial here: Even if you werent guilty it sometimes doesnt matter. Only matters how bad they want to nail you.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:44:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
So, what's a guy in a still un-free state supposed to do if they have mag bodies date stamped after? Since I have lots of friends in LE and MIL circles, I have a couple. Anyone willing to swap bodies of equivalent wear?



You are in an "un-free" state and you have post ban mags???

If you have LEO or post 9/94 stamped mags and you are not law enforcement I highly recommend you take out the springs, followers, and floorplates and get rid of the mag bodies immediately. Get caught with em and you will be a convicted felon.




This is too much trouble. I'm just gonna give 'em to an LEO buddy of mine so they can add 'em to their inventory.



good idea
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:09:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 1:10:15 PM EDT by chp5]

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Dont even think about selling high caps to a commie state. The only way to legally have a high cap magazine in california is if you owned it prior to the ban. In other words they are "grandfathered" in. You cant sell it, give it away, or will it. Sucks to be in California almost as much as it does to be in NY!



Not a flame, but...

How on God's Green Earth would anyone be able to prove ownership time frames on anything like that? It's completely unenforceable unless mags were serial numbered and registered.



That law took effect while the Federal ban was still in force. So actually any magazine without a date stamp or a stamp prior to 9/94 would probably be impossible to prove if there was a transfer. But do you think there will never be a sting operation to try to sell these? Do you think somebody might tattle on you sometime? Do you think you might get caught up in an investigation and they might track down the person you got the mags from OR the person you got them from could get caught selling em and rat you out?

Also think toward the future. For somebody who is now 30 years old they may have very well purchased these legally before the ban, but there is little way of knowing. Imagine 20 years from now, somebody who is 25. This person could not possibly obtained these legally as he would have been born after the ban, hence could never have legally purchased them.

But any magazines now available after the Federal ban would be easily identified. As these magazines are date stamped post 9/94 or stamped "LEO Only", "LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY", and/or "MILTARY USE ONLY". Anyone in the state of California with these mags obviously obtained them post ban. If you have one of these it is a cake walk for any court to give you a brand spankin new Felony conviction in CA. Ive heard there are some post ban mags that do not have markings, some of these manufacturers didnt exist before 2000, and some mags are completely new designs. So these will be obvious too. Not to mention some mag companies have since changed their names (like LaBelle to D&H).

Theres probably a dozen different ways to prove it. If you have dealt with the wrong people in Law Enforcement you would know something crucial here: Even if you werent guilty it sometimes doesnt matter. Only matters how bad they want to nail you.




Valid points. My mags are date stamped on the mag body "08/91." It's hard to argue that they're not pre-ban with that date stamp. The mags are on the EE for $12 a piece (the price it will cost me to replace them).
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