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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:41:59 AM EST
One was in Vietnam, the other one is about 25 years old. Is this true? I've heard this for the past 20 years from other people as well. Do they teach the Marines this? I have a hard time believing this but what do I know? I've read about you guys shooting out to 600 yards.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:44:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 2:57:20 AM EST by mr_wilson]


Mike

PS - thank 'em for their service to our country, but tell 'em for me they don't know shit about the M16 or the ammunition it shoots.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:59:24 AM EST
like cops a lot of Marines arent "gun people" i heard more than one DI spout this crap but when we got to the range the PMI gave everyone the straight scoop.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:15:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Niko:
One was in Vietnam, the other one is about 25 years old. Is this true? I've heard this for the past 20 years from other people as well. Do they teach the Marines this? I have a hard time believing this but what do I know? I've read about you guys shooting out to 600 yards.



You should have asked them "If the rounds are tumbling after 200yds, how do they make perfect holes at 500yds?" The annual rifle qualification goes out to 500yds.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:23:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 3:25:13 AM EST by WarDawg]
It's just an old MYTH being relived. A story that never dies. I guess it probaly comes from hearing someone say the 5.56x45 tumbles & Fragments ...Because of the nasty wound it leaves.Then some people take that as it is tumbling in flight. When it isn't.Just it does do a flip and fragment AFTER it has hit it's TARGET............ IMO ...WarDawg
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:25:37 AM EST
www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html


3. Assumption of Bullet "Tumbling" in Flight:
The notion that a common cause of increased wounding is the bullet's striking at large yaw angles (angle between the bullet's long axis and line of flight), or even sideways due to "tumbling" in flight (37, 40), is clearly fallacious. Anyone who has ever shot a rifle and observed the holes made by the bullet recognizes that they are round, not oblong, as would be the case if they yawed or tumbled in flight. This misconception seems attributable in large measure to misinterpretation of a report published, in 1967, by Hopkinson and Marshall. These authors presented diagrams of the yaw angles and patterns made by the bullet tip in flight (60). The angles on their drawings were exaggerated for clarity, showing 25 to 30 degrees rather than the 1 to 3 degrees that actually occur for properly designed bullets of small arms (61). In 1972, Amato and Rich reproduced these diagrams and added one for "tumbling" (62). In 1975 these diagrams reappeared in the NATO Handbook-Emergency War Surgery (40), where the text described them as resulting from aerodynamic forces acting upon the spin-stabilized bullet during flight. In 1980, Swan and Swan (37) reproduced these diagrams, but for the yawing bullet showed the impossible situation of rotation around the bullet tip rather than its center of mass. They also added a unique opinion (unsupported) that "yaw" and "tumble" are special ballistic properties associated with missiles of "very high velocities (c [sic] 3000 ft/s)."
Data from ballistics studies 10, 13, 14) show quite clearly that:

Bullets fired from a properly designed rifle yaw no more than a few degrees in flight, regardless of velocity.
In their path through tissue, all nondeforming pointed bullets, and some round-nosed ones, yaw to 180 degrees, ending their path traveling base forward (Figs 3 and 5).
Thus bullet yaw in tissue, an important consideration, has been confused with bullet yaw in flight, which is, in most cases, of negligible consequence.

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:26:30 AM EST
I'm in total agreement with DvlDog... I had Marines look at me funny because I was always talking about firearms....

ALOT of Marines are not gun enthusiasts!

Those types suck up everything they HEAR because they have no true experience to fall back on.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:34:57 AM EST
This is an old myth dating back to the Viet Nam War era. Been hearing it for well over thirty years.

No one knows for sure the original source of this nonsense, but I have heard it repeated, more than a few times, by veterans of that era. Might have had something to do with misinformation at first, then repeated to convince troops the new "22 caliber" round was deadlier than the old "30 caliber."

Anyhow just like another old Viet Nam era myth about the ability of the enemy to use our ammo in their weapons.



Lonny

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:26:16 AM EST
You mean my rifle is not supposed to leave keyholes at 200M?!?!?!?

I have heard this same rumor many times in the Army. I recently heard from an E-7 that was swearing thast it was true.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:37:07 AM EST
Do you mean to tell me those tales of NVA and VC having exit wounds in their upper torso after being hit in the thigh by an M16 round aren't true?!?!?!?!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:05:40 AM EST
I find it sad that they don't know their own weapon.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:28:21 AM EST
Yeah, a lot of soldiers don't know anything about guns. One of my uncles served in WW2, and he once said the Germans had an "88" in a church steeple. For those who don't know, the 8.8cm PAK is huge, and you couldn't get one in a church steeple. If the germans had as many "88"s or "Tiger" tanks as GIs thought they had, those in France would be speaking german.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:05:54 AM EST
i know when i'm pulling pits for my marines at 500 meters, if i see a keyhole impact, that means it hit the ground last time i was told, i must be cheating marines out of well earned points, cause i won't count it! LOL!!!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:11:48 AM EST
i've been told by a Drill S. that the bullet's trajectory is like a sinosoidal graph

i've also been told that the bullet does more damage the further it goes out...

theres lots of myths out there
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:54:03 AM EST
All questions will be answered by the Ammo Oracle.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:20:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 8:23:30 AM EST by Yojimbo]
[Gunshow SEAL] Back in Nam I shot a VC in the right butt cheek and the boolit tumbled up though his torso creating massive wounds before it exited out of his head! Now that the gubbamint has changed all the rifle twists to 1/7 all the boolit does is drill right through people leaving .22 ice pick wounds, dey should have left the 1/12 twist alone...[/Gunshow SEAL]
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:23:48 AM EST
Could it be that the older M16 with the higher twist (maybe 1 in 12) were shooting SS109 bullets (lately) and the result was a highly inaccurate shot causing one to actually believe in the tumbling effect?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:32:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By manowar669:
Yeah, a lot of soldiers don't know anything about guns. One of my uncles served in WW2, and he once said the Germans had an "88" in a church steeple. For those who don't know, the 8.8cm PAK is huge, and you couldn't get one in a church steeple. If the germans had as many "88"s or "Tiger" tanks as GIs thought they had, those in France would be speaking german.



Probably was a smaller gun like a 37mm. Generally, anything that was pouring effective cannon fire on our GIs was assumed to be an 88.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:34:03 AM EST
These are the same guys that make youthful officers insist they need more red dot sights, because Marines shooting with irons will become dead Marines.

Blah, blah, blah.

It's the decline of the shooting society. America doesn't want it's kids around guns, then throws a hissy when they can't shoot back at the bad guys efficiently.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:35:29 AM EST
I once tumbled on a curb outside the EN club at Camp Atterbury IN.(or was it a ditch?)
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:47:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
[Gunshow SEAL] Back in Nam I shot a VC in the right butt cheek and the boolit tumbled up though his torso creating massive wounds before it exited out of his head! Now that the gubbamint has changed all the rifle twists to 1/7 all the boolit does is drill right through people leaving .22 ice pick wounds, dey should have left the 1/12 twist alone...[/Gunshow SEAL]hug.gifhr


Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:51:40 PM EST
I think the original post was about the 5.56 being designed to tumble after 200 yds..... not tumbling once it hits someone.

There are many instances of 5.56 bullets tumbling once they enter the body. But designed to just start tumbling once it travels 200 yds..... I dont think so.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:55:40 PM EST
As a general rule, soldiers and cops don't know shit about guns.

There are notable exceptions, but they are in the minority.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:19:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
[Gunshow SEAL] Back in Nam I shot a VC in the right butt cheek and the boolit tumbled up though his torso creating massive wounds before it exited out of his head! Now that the gubbamint has changed all the rifle twists to 1/7 all the boolit does is drill right through people leaving .22 ice pick wounds, dey should have left the 1/12 twist alone...[/Gunshow SEAL]



I ran into a clerk who was saying the same thing recently. "M16's haven't been effective since they changed all the twist rates from 1/12. That's why those guys used to talk about hitting someone in the knee and the bullet coming out of their ear. Now they (1/9, 1/7) overstabilize the bullet and all it makes is an ice pick hole." Had he sounded sarcastic I might have continued to listen.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:25:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 9:26:36 PM EST by FishKepr]
I have a friend who used to be a Lightfighter and is now in an Armored Division stationed in CA. A few years ago he told me that the bullet from an M16 tumbles when it leaves the muzzle. I tried to argue with him, but he would not hear of it. He still insists on it to this day.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:39:26 PM EST
I heard the same thing from my DS while in basic in the mid 80's. I knew he was full of shit but I wasn't about to argue and end up with 10 weeks of K.P. It would be like trying to get a boomarang to fly a straight line after 25 yards.
I think the point my D.S. was trying to make, although ignorant to ballistics, was that the 5.56 cartridge made effective wounds.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:47:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Niko:
One was in Vietnam, the other one is about 25 years old. Is this true? I've heard this for the past 20 years from other people as well. Do they teach the Marines this? I have a hard time believing this but what do I know? I've read about you guys shooting out to 600 yards.



Old myth, along with the M16 being 'self cleaning' and being unreliable in less than pristine conditions...

5.56mm rounds, especially at higher (77gr and up) weights, are quite accurate out beyond 600yds....

NRA 600yd competition basically requires you to hit a 12" circle from 600yds for a perfect score, and the AR dominates NRA service-rifle competition.

What DOES happen, is that when a US mil-spec 5.56mm bullet strikes flesh or similar, it's length causes it to attempt to turn tail-first, and the forces exerted while the bullet is doing this cause it to fragment...

They do not 'tumble'...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:44:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:56:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
What DOES happen, is that when a US mil-spec 5.56mm bullet strikes flesh or similar, it's length causes it to attempt to turn tail-first, and the forces exerted while the bullet is doing this cause it to fragment...



Actually it's not the length of the bullet that causes this. It has to do with the bullet's center of pressure being ahead of it's center of mass. It's the shape of the bullet that causes the round to yaw after it impacts flesh ... where it tries to reorient itself into a more stable position (tail first).
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 11:31:34 PM EST
This on gun show Nam vet said "When I was a medic in the Marines one of the guys got shot with an AK in his thumb and came out his foot". I asked him if he was tieing his boot lace up when he was shot. Then I got to hear the story about bullets tumbleing.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:42:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sixgun357:
This on gun show Nam vet said "When I was a medic in the Marines one of the guys got shot with an AK in his thumb and came out his foot". I asked him if he was tieing his boot lace up when he was shot. Then I got to hear the story about bullets tumbleing.



Interesting since USMC 'medics' are called Corpsman and they're members of the US Navy.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:56:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 3:59:40 AM EST by jmart]
Local gunstore in town, one of the better ones actually, anyway while chatting up the clerk behind the counter talking AR15's we start discussing ammo. He said he was former Spec Forces and he was "intimately" familar with the 5.56 round. Along the way we got to talking about terminal performance and he insisted that no fragmentation ever occurred, that all the wounding was a function of tumbling. Also claimed that any round that fragmented in flesh was banned by the Geneva convention. He wasn't interested in hearing any debate on the matter so I thanked him and politely left.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:26:30 AM EST
I didnt read hardly any of the read other than the first post, but yea thats bs. In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe. People shoot .223's 1000yrds.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:01:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By OD:
In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe.



Nope, the U.S. Army quals at 500 as well.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:00:05 PM EST
I think I recall hearing or reading the "flying Buzzsaw" story a looooooooong time ago!
As I recall it was a storry started by the Anti-War crowd back during the Vietnam war
citing "inhumane" weapons being used.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:09:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:11:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By FishKepr:
I have a friend who used to be a Lightfighter and is now in an Armored Division stationed in CA. A few years ago he told me that the bullet from an M16 tumbles when it leaves the muzzle. I tried to argue with him, but he would not hear of it. He still insists on it to this day.



My two cents. I was a PMI in the Marines for 2 years. What we learned is around 650+ meters the round starts to wabble. We set up targets at 800 and saw full length bullet impacts in the target. The book on the effective range is 550 on a point target and 800 on an area target. In my own experience, I myself have put 20 consecutive shots in to a 12" target from 500. Not difficult with no wind.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:12:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Niko:
One was in Vietnam, the other one is about 25 years old. Is this true? I've heard this for the past 20 years from other people as well. Do they teach the Marines this? I have a hard time believing this but what do I know? I've read about you guys shooting out to 600 yards.



Old myth, along with the M16 being 'self cleaning' and being unreliable in less than pristine conditions...

5.56mm rounds, especially at higher (77gr and up) weights, are quite accurate out beyond 600yds....

NRA 600yd competition basically requires you to hit a 12" circle from 600yds for a perfect score, and the AR dominates NRA service-rifle competition.

What DOES happen, is that when a US mil-spec 5.56mm bullet strikes flesh or similar, it's length causes it to attempt to turn tail-first, and the forces exerted while the bullet is doing this cause it to fragment...

They do not 'tumble'...



You are completely correct, but the standard issue round in the military for 5.56 is 55 gr.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:13:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By Sixgun357:
This on gun show Nam vet said "When I was a medic in the Marines one of the guys got shot with an AK in his thumb and came out his foot". I asked him if he was tieing his boot lace up when he was shot. Then I got to hear the story about bullets tumbleing.



Interesting since USMC 'medics' are called Corpsman and they're members of the US Navy.



+1 I love when guys at the bar tell me they were medics in the corps. It takes a lot for me not to bitch slap them.

Semper Fi
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:14:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By KNEESINTHEBREEZE:

Originally Posted By OD:
In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe.



Nope, the U.S. Army quals at 500 as well.




Errrrr. What?????? The last time I checked it was 300.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:16:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 2:16:56 PM EST by sgthoskins]

Originally Posted By KNEESINTHEBREEZE:

Originally Posted By OD:
In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe.



Nope, the U.S. Army quals at 500 as well.



Last time I checked it was random targets from 50 to 300 meters. 40 shots total. And I might add a pretty easy clean.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:20:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
You are completely correct, but the standard issue round in the military for 5.56 is 55 gr. 62gr M855



Fixed it for ya!
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:23:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
You are completely correct, but the standard issue round in the military for 5.56 is 55 gr. 62gr M855



Fixed it for ya!



Thanks gotm4. We always received 55 gr. But we were close to the mexican border so it must have been a logistics thing.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 3:09:46 PM EST
Think about it, if a bullet started tumbling after 200 yards, what would be it maximum range, 225 yards? A bullet ain't going to go very far if it starts tumbling in the air. Throw an arrow normal then throw one end over end and see which one goes farther.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:07:22 PM EST
I knew the story was BS from th begining. My dad was a Corpsman when he was in. My dad Corrected me at a very young age.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 4:11:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:


Mike

PS - thank 'em for their service to our country, but tell 'em for me they don't know shit about the M16 or the ammunition it shoots.



+1
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:04:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 6:07:26 PM EST by KNEESINTHEBREEZE]

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:

Originally Posted By KNEESINTHEBREEZE:

Originally Posted By OD:
In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe.



Nope, the U.S. Army quals at 500 as well.



Last time I checked it was random targets from 50 to 300 meters. 40 shots total. And I might add a pretty easy clean.


As you were..... The OFFICIAL Army qual standard record fire course consists of 40 target exposures at ranges between 50 and 300 meters in timed target sequences and combinations, i.e. BCT and regular marksmanship proficiency qualification. The standard course requires 23 hits to qualify as Marksman, 30 for Sharpshooter, and 36 for Expert. Targets out to 500 meters are only used in specific unit training, etc. I melded my unit flashbacks with my BCT ones. I KNEW I remembered engaging 500 meter targets SOMEWHERE h.gif
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