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Posted: 4/11/2018 2:47:05 PM EDT
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-)

I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with.

The options I've come across so far are:
-Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x
-Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24
-US Optics SVS 1-6x
-Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x

I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Link Posted: 4/11/2018 2:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 2:54:14 PM EDT by HunterKiller86]
I would replace the T5xi with the M6xi, which had a modified version submitted to the USSOCOM squad variable contract.

Others:
NF ATACR 1-8
NF NX8 1-8
SB 1-8 pm II Short Dot CC CQB

I am sure someone will mention the Kahles.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:04:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 3:04:18 PM EDT by Kestrel452]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HunterKiller86:
I would replace the T5xi with the M6xi, which had a modified version submitted to the USSOCOM squad variable contract.
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Thanks! Just out of curiosity, why do you discount the T5xi? I would only say that the M6xi is both slightly heavier and much more expensive than the Razor. For almost $3,000 it would need to be vastly better performing :-)
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:05:55 PM EDT
Any of what has been mentioned should serve that role well, maybe take a look at the trijicon vcog or accupoint as well. Have not studied their weight however. Sounds like you’ve got a solid budget to work with so I think you’ll be squared away with whatever you choose. Cheers
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:16:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 3:29:21 PM EDT by HunterKiller86]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kestrel452:

Thanks! Just out of curiosity, why do you discount the T5xi? I would only say that the M6xi is both slightly heavier and much more expensive than the Razor. For almost $3,000 it would need to be vastly better performing :-)
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Based on reviews and feedback, T-series has documented tracking and parallax issues albeit with earlier versions. Maybe the newer T-series options are better? But Steiner's M-series are made for combat ruggedness.

The list I gave was not considering price. The price to performance ratio will always be owned by the Razor Gen II IMO.

Per Steiner:
"T5Xi vs M5Xi = T5Xi’s are built on the same platform as the M5Xi’s. The M5Xi supports rigorous international military standards. The T5Xi scope line services 95% of the US market needs including law enforcement and agency use. There are reticle option differences between the line as well. Same glass, same coatings."

Steiner M-series is said to have much superior glass to T-series.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:19:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 3:36:07 PM EDT by BarrettBoy]
IMO a 'combat' optic would pin durability and reliability as the most important characteristics.
So I'd think your list would be something like:

Trijicon VCOG
SB 1-8 PM2
NF ATACR 1-8
Steiner M5XI (or M6XI)
USO SVS 1-6
Elcan 1/4
Elcan 1/3/9

If you really wanted a 'combat' optic or some 'shtf' oriented optic, you're still probably better off with a acog/rmr or reddot/magnifier combo.
But if money was no object, SB 1-8 PM2 for sure. Aside from the quality and reputation, it's got a host of neat features the others can't match.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:19:40 PM EDT
NF NXS 1-8 @17 oz
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:45:03 PM EDT
The Razor GII 1-6x has been, and is currently used by some of our SF personnel.

My only knock on it, is that it's a pretty heavy SOB. That said, you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo.

The Kahles K16i is a favorite in 3-gun, and those rigs take some rough handling (tossed into bins, knocked around accidentally). It's quite a bit lighter than my Razor. As to whether it's as tough as the Razor? I don't know. I haven't beat on either one enough.

They both have excellent glass. I REALLY like the 'fin' on the K16i for fast magnification adjustments (bought an add-on for the Razor, but not needing to spend the extra is great). The K16i's horseshoe dot is VERY fast at close ranges.

Both have daylight bright settings for the illumination,
But neither one has true NVG settings, if that matters.

I prefer Vortex's step illumination, where every alternate click is 'Off'. That way, you can set it to your preferred brightness, and 1 click in either direction, turns it Off. You can then turn it 1 click, straight to your preferred brightness setting (i.e. always turn counterclockwise for Off, then you know 1 click clockwise is your preferred brightness).

The Kahles uses a continuously variable brightness knob, which means you have to always turn it all the way until it clicks, for Off, and dial it to the desires brightness every time, when turning it On. For a combat/night patrol optic, Kahles has an auto-Off after 4 hours IIRC. Don't remember what Vortex does.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 3:57:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bluemax_1:
The Razor GII 1-6x has been, and is currently used by some of our SF personnel.

My only knock on it, is that it's a pretty heavy SOB. That said, you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo.

The Kahles K16i is a favorite in 3-gun, and those rigs take some rough handling (tossed into bins, knocked around accidentally). It's quite a bit lighter than my Razor. As to whether it's as tough as the Razor? I don't know. I haven't beat on either one enough.

They both have excellent glass. I REALLY like the 'fin' on the K16i for fast magnification adjustments (bought an add-on for the Razor, but not needing to spend the extra is great). The K16i's horseshoe dot is VERY fast at close ranges.

Both have daylight bright settings for the illumination,
But neither one has true NVG settings, if that matters.

I prefer Vortex's step illumination, where every alternate click is 'Off'. That way, you can set it to your preferred brightness, and 1 click in either direction, turns it Off. You can then turn it 1 click, straight to your preferred brightness setting (i.e. always turn counterclockwise for Off, then you know 1 click clockwise is your preferred brightness).

The Kahles uses a continuously variable brightness knob, which means you have to always turn it all the way until it clicks, for Off, and dial it to the desires brightness every time, when turning it On. For a combat/night patrol optic, Kahles has an auto-Off after 4 hours IIRC. Don't remember what Vortex does.
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K16i has been seen in use with some SOF cats as well.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 4:21:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 4:21:16 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 6:06:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kestrel452:
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-)

I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with.

The options I've come across so far are:
-Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x
-Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24
-US Optics SVS 1-6x
-Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x

I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e.

Thank you in advance for any help.

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"combat worthy". Will you be using NV with it?
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 7:58:17 PM EDT
I own a pre-E GenII Razor and the Steiner T5Xi.



Steiner is lighter
glass is a wash (both are excellent)

Razor has brighter top end illumination but the lowest setting on the Steiner is compatible with NV, the lowest on the Razor is too bright for NV.

Reticle is similar. Razor lines up better on hitting very close to even 100 yard increments with real world muzzle velocities. Steiner BDC is good but with most ammo the subtensions wind up being something like 290, 383, 468, 552...

Razor BDC with real world chrono data with factory 55gr ammo:



Turrets on the Razor are far superior to the Steiner. Tracking and tactile clicks are just spot on with the Razor. Not so with my Steiner. It appears to track properly but it is mushy enough that I don't trust myself to dial windage and then dial it back to zero. Both have held zero like tanks through a lot of 3-gun and general purpose use.

Razor illumination knob is lockable, which is nice.

Both have capped turrets.

Both have easily adjustable diopter.

5x vs 6x, not enough difference to make much fuss over.

I don't plan to replace the Steiner but if I had to choose between the two it would be the Razor that gets the nod.

VCOG has had some reported issues with the reticle being out of focus either at max magnification or min magnification. If you focus it perfectly at one, the other will be fuzzy.

FFP is of dubious merit in a 1-6 IMHO although I did struggle with some 400ish steel at a match once because I was still on 3x from a 100 yard plate rack. If it had been a man size target it wouldn't have been an issue. I've only made that mistake once.

I have never looked through the other two scopes on your list.
Link Posted: 4/11/2018 10:46:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 10:48:45 PM EDT by kukworld]
I’m probably the minortity here, my vote goes to mark 6.

Here is what I like about mark 6
1) True 1x...I really meant it...because I’m pretty picky about it.
2) light at 17oz..but it’s build like a tank
3) love the cmr-w reticle
4) super clear glass

What I don’t like about mark 6
1) at max setting I felt the illlumation it’s not as bright under bright sunlight
2) doesn’t have integrated throw lever
3) dial is mushy...but I don’t dial

Razor it’s awesome, buts it’s jsut too heavy ...yes, even at 21.5 o.....also at 1x...to my eye the images it’s not as flat as mark 6. Also, I don’t like razor reticle offering and the illumation dot it’s just too small..but that just me.

I do have mil version NX8 on its way from Euro optics...I know I will love the reticle and illumation. Not sure how it is at 1x but since both scopes are FFP...I will assume it’s gonna be close. Glass probably not gonna be as good as Mark 6 (I owns NXS 2.5-10x 42) im hopeing the 8x it’s worthy of the trade off.
Link Posted: 4/12/2018 12:49:50 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By kukworld:
I’m probably the minortity here, my vote goes to mark 6.

Here is what I like about mark 6
1) True 1x...I really meant it...because I’m pretty picky about it.
2) light at 17oz..but it’s build like a tank
3) love the cmr-w reticle
4) super clear glass

What I don’t like about mark 6
1) at max setting I felt the illlumation it’s not as bright under bright sunlight
2) doesn’t have integrated throw lever
3) dial is mushy...but I don’t dial

Razor it’s awesome, buts it’s jsut too heavy ...yes, even at 21.5 o.....also at 1x...to my eye the images it’s not as flat as mark 6. Also, I don’t like razor reticle offering and the illumation dot it’s just too small..but that just me.

I do have mil version NX8 on its way from Euro optics...I know I will love the reticle and illumation. Not sure how it is at 1x but since both scopes are FFP...I will assume it’s gonna be close. Glass probably not gonna be as good as Mark 6 (I owns NXS 2.5-10x 42) im hopeing the 8x it’s worthy of the trade off.
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They're only a 1\2 hour from where I live. I love that place!

I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look
Link Posted: 4/12/2018 1:36:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2018 1:36:55 AM EDT by Jormungandr]
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Originally Posted By Effenpig:

They're only a 1\2 hour from where I live. I love that place!

I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look
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Had a trijicon 1-8, sold it to get an atacr 1-8.

I didnt like how big the crosshairs were for precision work at 8x and it's definitely not as daylight bright but still good if shady or overcast.

1x isn't true 1x but it's good enough for me.

I'll be buying a razor 1-6 for my sbr soon.
Link Posted: 4/12/2018 1:55:23 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Effenpig:

They're only a 1\2 hour from where I live. I love that place!

I was there checking out the trijicon 1-8x28 the other day and it was super clear and seemed very close to 1x . I've read a few reviews that say it's not daylight bright so I'll have too take another look
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There was a post about the illumination here recently.
It showed that the reticle was indeed technically daylight bright, but wasn't reddot bright.
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 5:55:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2018 5:56:32 PM EDT by 9divdoc]
If I was going back into combat I'd be taking an Aimpont T2 micro and a small ACOG

For around here and my needs a 1-4 VX-R works just fine...a 1-4 Accupoint or Steiner would work too...

Other scopes on other rifles for other purposes
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 6:52:30 PM EDT
Question for those experienced with the Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6

Does the E model just differ in weight?
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 8:13:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 8:17:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
We can confirm weight is the only difference in the E model.

Hope this helps!

Jimmy H
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know when optics planet will be getting a shipment of JM reticle 1-6 Es? i wanna use my 10% discount code
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 9:09:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
We can confirm weight is the only difference in the E model.

Hope this helps!

Jimmy H
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Thank you Sir
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 9:14:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By RJeff21:

K16i has been seen in use with some SOF cats as well.
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K16i is king of LPVs, regardless of intended use. If money isn’t an object, this is THE choice to make.
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 9:16:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kestrel452:
If you are able to share any insight, your help would be greatly appreciated :-)

I have just built an AR15 that'll fulfill the role of a close to mid-range SHTF carbine. The only question now is what optic to outfit it with.

The options I've come across so far are:
-Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6x
-Steinier T5Xi 1-5x24
-US Optics SVS 1-6x
-Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and VX-6HD 1-6x

I'm open to others as well. Weight is an issue to balance with durability, as my AR builds need to be *relatively* lightweight due to medical necessity. Because of that, I've excluded optics such as the Vortex Viper PST Gen II since it's even heavier than the Razor Gen II-e.

Thank you in advance for any help.

View Quote
I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 9:22:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mrgunsngear:

I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02
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have you tried the razor gen 2 1-6?

Im just trying to see if anyone has tried it vs the new nightforce offerings to see how they compare. I got an atacr 1-8 right now and was thinking about buying a second one for my sbr but since the ranges itll be doing are 400 and in usually i might opt for the razor to save some money since 8x and FFP arent a huge deal to me with the sbr.
Link Posted: 4/15/2018 1:10:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jormungandr:

have you tried the razor gen 2 1-6?

Im just trying to see if anyone has tried it vs the new nightforce offerings to see how they compare. I got an atacr 1-8 right now and was thinking about buying a second one for my sbr but since the ranges itll be doing are 400 and in usually i might opt for the razor to save some money since 8x and FFP arent a huge deal to me with the sbr.
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It's not possible with current technology to make any optics a true 1x. The Razor is truly remarkable in its ability to make the scope tube disappear on 1x so that all you see is the FOV through the optic. I haven't used any that are more high end than it though. The heavier one is too much weigh IMO but the new Enhanced is lighter than the G2 PST 1-6X at 21.5oz and that is a reasonable weight for a 1-6x IMO.
Link Posted: 4/15/2018 3:30:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Alaskanforfreedom:
It's not possible with current technology to make any optics a true 1x. The Razor is truly remarkable in its ability to make the scope tube disappear on 1x so that all you see is the FOV through the optic. I haven't used any that are more high end than it though. The heavier one is too much weigh IMO but the new Enhanced is lighter than the G2 PST 1-6X at 21.5oz and that is a reasonable weight for a 1-6x IMO.
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Concur
Link Posted: 4/15/2018 8:13:53 PM EDT
I like the VCOG, it's what I have on my go to rifle. The optic is lighter than a razor and that's with the VCOG already having a mount. It's durable, the reticle is not daylight bright but the reticle is bold and can be seen easily. I was shooting today on an overcast day and it was plenty visible but the day before it was extremely bright and it was a dark green. They have released new MOA/MIL VCOG's that could be brighter. The red 1-8 accupowers are bright. The accupoints are great optics they are light, no batteries, extremely bright. I don't like the mk6 because it has a poor eye box, the reticle without illumination is useless on 1x.
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 12:28:57 AM EDT
Take a look at the Meopta ZD 1-4x22 RD
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 12:50:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mrgunsngear:

I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02
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I hear the SB 1-8 CC parallax mode is really darn close.
Think you could get one for review?
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 2:33:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 8:45:29 AM EDT
a freind has a trijicon accupoint TR25, a 1-6x. from what little i've used it, the 1x settling was comfortable and fast. glass is good.

i really like the fiber optic but the recticle choices suck and the tiny center would not be good in the dark with a flashlight i dont think.

i'd probably go for the german #4 or triangle reticle if i bought one.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 9:34:32 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
We can confirm weight is the only difference in the E model.

Hope this helps!

Jimmy H
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Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
Originally Posted By Leonitus:
Question for those experienced with the Vortex Razor HD Gen II-e 1-6

Does the E model just differ in weight?
We can confirm weight is the only difference in the E model.

Hope this helps!

Jimmy H
Any chance of NVG compatible settings for the illumination in the future?
Link Posted: 4/18/2018 8:56:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/18/2018 9:04:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mrgunsngear:

I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02
View Quote
The NF ATACR 1-8x is there. So is the Steiner P6Xi, and the S&B 1-8x when it comes out in late Summer. Minox 1-6x is pretty close.

I know a lot of posts here, and the question becomes one of budget. The 1-8x from Trijicon is pretty damn good, and 1/3 the price of some of the others, so it all depends what one wants and wants to pay.
Link Posted: 4/18/2018 9:08:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VortexOptics:
That's something that we'll be looking into in the future. Right now, our most pressing request was to have a true daylight bright reticle, which we were able to provide, but the technology prevented us from providing NV settings. At some point our goal is to provide both the daylight bright reticle and NV settings. Time will tell but we'll keep working on it.
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Understood. Thanks.
Link Posted: 4/18/2018 9:25:26 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mrgunsngear:

I've used A LOT of LPVOs that claim 1x. Not a single has actually been 1x IMO. If you can't cowitness irons with it then it's not 1x... At least that's my $0.02
View Quote
Aren't you conflating magnification and focus?

There are numerous LPVOs with a true 1x magnification (both the Razor HD G2 and Kahles are examples). As you pan at 1x, and objects pass into, and out of, the view through the scope, there is no change in the size of the object.

Not being able to cowitness a LPVO to irons is a different issue, due to focal range/distance/lengthissues with complex optics. This is also the reason that there is an optimal eye relief range from the ocular lens for LPVOs, unlike red dot or holographic sights where you can have your eye as close to, or far from your eye as you can see through.

A red dot or holographic sight simply projects a dot or reticle in your field of view by reflecting it off an angled plane. This can be done without magnification, or any need for the optic to focus the light passing through it. As such, there is no eye relief range, or minimum focal distance.
Link Posted: 4/20/2018 7:24:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluemax_1:

Aren't you conflating magnification and focus?

There are numerous LPVOs with a true 1x magnification (both the Razor HD G2 and Kahles are examples). As you pan at 1x, and objects pass into, and out of, the view through the scope, there is no change in the size of the object.

Not being able to cowitness a LPVO to irons is a different issue, due to focal range/distance/lengthissues with complex optics. This is also the reason that there is an optimal eye relief range from the ocular lens for LPVOs, unlike red dot or holographic sights where you can have your eye as close to, or far from your eye as you can see through.

A red dot or holographic sight simply projects a dot or reticle in your field of view by reflecting it off an angled plane. This can be done without magnification, or any need for the optic to focus the light passing through it. As such, there is no eye relief range, or minimum focal distance.
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So you can use irons through the Razor G2 1-6 or Kahles K16i? I'm pretty sure you can't even use irons through 1x prusms like the Vortex Spitfire.
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