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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/25/2002 7:28:54 AM EDT
I love this bullet design in .308. I have taken a nice bull elk, mountain goat, and several white-tails and muleys the size of small horses with this bullet. At ranges from 75yds to just over 200. All one shot stops, with the bullets that I have recovered mushrooming perfectly (recovered from elk, muley and goat), with 90 to 95% weight retention (estimated). My question is this: how does this design fair out of the .223? I am heading home to central texas for thanksgiving hunt(all small bodied white-tails). I believe this could possibly be the perfect hill country deer rifle round. Only problem is I never hear anyone speak of it. I know federal makes a factory .223 load with TB bear claws in 55gr. Will be shot out of a 14.5 inch barrel with aimpoint and ARMS SIR.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 7:59:00 AM EDT
I don't hear of many people hunting with the .223 version of the bear claw. But I DO know that tests have proven it to be an excellent choice for defense, particularly when shots through auto glass are required. It's able to penetrate the glass in on piece, and still reliably expand in it's target. Anyway, judging by what I've seen the larger caliber versions of this bullet do, and knowing the size of central TX whitetails, I'd say it will perform admirably. However, you MAY want to move up in barrel length if you plan on taking any shots over 100 yds (just a guess!) or so. A 16" would probably make a big difference if you have access to one. Expect to see this bullet (in the form of the Federal Tactical load) to be a part of gel tests in the future.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 11:06:00 AM EDT
I'll be in the hill country this weekend too. I have some of those Winchester 62grn. Supremes I want to try on a Llano whitetail. They should work great. Good luck on your hunt, and let us know how those Trophy Bonded work out.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 3:58:13 PM EDT
The weekend before last----Saturday, 11/16----I used a .223 TBBC in a 20" Colt Sporter Target to take down a 185 lb. 8 point white tail in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. One shot from about 80 yards into the lung cavity---the buck ran all of about 150 feet and fell over "dead as a doornail". I had never hunted deer using the TBBC cartridge previously---for that matter, I had never used a .223 for hunting deer before. Was really pleased with the result. Really enjoyed carrying the AR, as compared to my Browning BAR.[;)]
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 6:16:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2002 6:19:35 AM EDT by Apprentice]
I posted my experience with the 55 grain Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw load on a large 8 point whitetail buck last Fall on the Hunting board. Date was around late November 2001. Rifle was a 16" Bushmaster carbine. To summarize I was ground hunting and hit this buck behind his right shoulder at a range of 20 feet. He jumped and ran about 20-30 yards and was down for keeps. The bullet broke two ribs under the entrance wound, bored a consistent 1" to 2" diameter hole through both lungs and was found perfectly mushroomed just under the opposite hide. He was a very thick shouldered deer for this area and I estimate his live weight at 160-180 lbs. I was pretty pleased with that performance. I also took a medium sized doe last year with a 68 grain Black Hills match load and it fragmented completely in the chest cavity and completely shredded the heart and both lungs. A fragment left a small exit wound. Range was about 20 yards and the doe was down and out in about 15 yards. This year I'm using the Winchester 64 grain PP but haven't taken a deer with it yet. I have taken two with the 150 grain Rem CoreLokt .30/30 under 50 yards so far though and the wound channels looked remarkably similiar to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .223's except that both exited with power to spare and broke some shoulder bones too.
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 8:13:28 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies. I am interested to see how performance fairs out of my 14.5" barrel. I would also be interested to know what kind of performance you would have over 150yrds. If I get a chance this weekend I will try for a shot and report back. It seems to be an excellent performer at 100yrds and less. But with my short barrel and longer ranges?
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 8:29:52 AM EDT
Please recover the bullet and post pics, if possible.
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 9:47:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Apprentice: I have taken two with the 150 grain Rem [b]CoreLokt[/b] .30/30 under 50 yards so far though and the wound channels looked remarkably similiar to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .223's except that both exited with power to spare and broke some shoulder bones too.
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Weird--like I said in another thread, while using a 225gr CoreLokt .338 at 77 yds on a buck this year, the bullet apparently blew up on contact--mebbe the CoreLokt doesn't like the higher velocities of the .338 because this never happened to me when I used 'em in my .30/30. I certainly had issues with CoreLokt on 11/16/02.
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 12:04:39 PM EDT
My friend took an 8 point at 28 paces this season with a 130 grain Core Lockt .270 Win. Deer dropped on the spot but the bullet seemed to have all but vaporized. We only found one shard of jacketing material in the opposite shoulder. It's not a premium design per se I guess but it probably well suited for the modest .30/30 velocities. Brouhaha - I have the recovered Bear Claw and will see if my modest digital camera can take a decent picture for posting.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 7:39:37 AM EDT
Apprentice, Regarding the 68 gr Black Hills load, did you happen to check to see approximately how deep the bullet penetrated before fragmentation started? I am very interested in this particular load for self defense use but I have yet to see any gel tests showing fragmentation, although I suspected it would perform similarly to it's 75 gr big brother. Upon seeing gel verification that this round will reliably fragment, I may order some for my Bushy. Does anyone know where I can read or view the results of gel tests with the Black Hills 68 gr load? Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 8:53:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: Does anyone know where I can read or view the results of gel tests with the Black Hills 68 gr load? Thanks.
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...sigh... You guys are gonna be the death of Tatja and I! [whacko] We haven't done it yet, or even discussed that round yet. So lemme talk to her about it.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 9:29:29 AM EDT
Regarding the 68 grain BH's performance on my doe, I regret not taking pictures all along the way. I hunt with a digital camera handy now. All I can say is that the hole through the near side flank muscle/chest cavity was about the size of a golf ball. Bloodshot effect was all up through the shoulder and across the brisket. To grasp what I mean by heart and lungs shredded, open your hand up about half way. Picture the deer's heart, still intact at the base like the palm of your hand. Then the rest of the heart was cut into long thick ribbons like your fingers. From prior reading of wounding effects here, on TF, and GT, I figure this must have been caused by the cutting action of high velocity fragments, simultaneous with the temporary cavity stretch. As for the lungs, they were reduced to a scrambled eggs consistency and that's about how they rolled on out during field dressing. The exit wound on the far side skin was small. Perhaps as small as .38 caliber. Under the exit wound skin the wound channel through the flank muscle was smaller. Finger sized as I recall. In that area I did find one jagged and twisted piece of jacketing material about the size of my little finger's fingernail but I dropped that and lost it during butchering. This 68 grain, Federal's 69 grain, or BH or Hornady 75-77 grain match or TAP are my top choices for SD with the AR. I've only just picked up some Hornady 75 grain match to try. My rifle is 1:9 twist and I had previously assumed they would not stabilize but someone with a good deal more experience than I suggest they may well out to 100-150 yards anyway. Don't know yet myself.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 10:07:03 AM EDT
LOL Brou! I certainly don't wanna be the death of you and Tat, but if you could somehow work the Black Hills 68 gr load into your next series of tests, I sure would be greatful. I feel this round could very well be the answer to those who want the performance of the 75 gr BTHP rounds, but are stuck with a 1/9 twist barrel that may not stabilize them as good as could be done. The 68's should work fine with 1/9 twists and we know how many rifles there is utilizing that particular twist. We know the 69 gr SMK's are decent loads, but it seems that they have to penetrate pretty deep before they start doing their thing. If the 68 gr Hornady bullet performs like it's 75 gr big brother, then it might be a better load than the SMK's. Just seeing how it performs in relation to the 69 and 75 gr loads is what I am wanting so bad to see. And thanks again Apprentice. Based on the wound you saw on the deer, it has the ability to get the job done and fragment very well. While there is no guarantee it would do the same on a human critter, this leads me to believe that most likely it would. I have seen this ammo recommended right up there with some of the other highly touted rounds for police work. I just haven't seen the data supporting it. I guess someone else has though, and liked what they saw.
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