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Posted: 9/17/2003 9:30:29 AM EDT
I have a friend who is trying to equip his home defense Bushmaster carbine with a good optic and lights. I have steered him toward Surefire for his light but he is having some trouble picking an optic. I first recommended the Aimpoint and Eotech but he doesn't want a battery dependent optic. Next I recommended the Trijicon ACOG's but he says that is more money than he's willing to spend (or can afford). So about the only other option I can think of that doesn't require batteries, is made by a quality company and doesn't cost a fortune is the Trijicon Reflex sights.

But I have never owned one of these and I don't know a great deal about them. I have heard that the reticle can be hard to pick up against certain backgrounds? Is this the case and are there models that have been improved so this isn't an issue? It seems that my friend is most concerned about having a go-to-gun when things go bump in the night. I assume the reticle will be fine in low light conditions. But I don't want him to have an optic that is useless during daylight either.

Next, he has a plain jane Bushmaster 16" with carry handle. Will these sights work ok on carry handles? Again, sorry for so many questions but I just want to give good advice. Until someone informs me about the sight I'm afraid I don't have much advice to give.

Thanks,

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 11:00:49 AM EDT
A Surefire and a Reflex is a bad combo - the Surefire will be bright enough to washout the Reflex and the Reflex doesn't have an etched reticle to fall back on like the ACOGs do. So hitting the flashlight in a dimly lit room can make the reticle disappear.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 11:42:25 AM EDT
Trijicon's have no disadvantages...can't go wrong with one for short to medium distances. They are bullet proof designs...only choice you really need to decide is the reticle. As you mentioned earlier, they are not "battery dependent." The ACOG is the one I have but I do understand some people don't want to spend the money. The old saying goes..."you get what you pay for."
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:21:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 12:22:28 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
I used to be a Trijicon Reflex believer until I actually started using the damn thing in varied lighting. The reticle washes out in too many different lighting conditons. It can wash out with the use of a flashlight. The one time I REALLY wanted to be able to see it was in a parking lot lit with sodium vapor lights, which by the way, totally ate the amber reticle. As SMGLee has pointed out, the heavy blue tint makes it hard to see your target in dim light. Tell him to get over his trust of batteries issues. Aimpoint and Eotech are in heavy use by the military, and they dont seem that concerned about it. My Aimpoint CET model is still on the same battery that came with it almost a year ago, and its seen heavy use, and even been left on overnight accidentally. Back up irons negate this conern even more. If he doesnt want to trust batteries, then stay with iron sights.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:36:45 PM EDT
If you are using a Reflex from inside of a dark area, pointing into are area of equal or greater darkness, it is fine. If you are using a Reflex from a light area, pointing to an equally light or darker area, you are fine. The problem comes when, you are physically in an area which is darker than the area where your target is. The reticle then washes out. This is what happens when you turn on a surefire on your target, as Bartholomew_Roberts said. Creates the effect.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:37:25 PM EDT
Why doesn't Trijicon change the reticle then? Surely they know this problem exists and it would seem a small amount of trouble to add other options on new models. That could make it much more competetive among Aimpoint and Eotech products. -CH
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:41:15 PM EDT
They were TRYING to do that with the Try-Power
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 1:21:46 PM EDT
Thanks guys. I suppose I will advise him to either just get the light and use irons or go for the Aimpoint/Eotech and just keep an eye on his batteries. Of course with this will come a need for a good carry handle mount, etc. Maybe I can convince him to go with the Gooseneck and Aimpoint like you guys steered me toward not long ago. Personally, batteries aren't a major concern for me. I have had an Eotech 512 (uses 2 AA batteries) since late Winter/early Spring and have used it quite a bit. It's still on it's first set of batteries. While I have just had the Aimpoint a short while, no battery problems to report with it either. I guess some folks worry about batteries more than others. -CH
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 1:36:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 5:00:49 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 1:48:02 PM EDT
Yep, a Reflex was the first 1x optic I bought for my AR. I loved it until I realized how bad the reticle washes out. As has been mentioned, using a good light makes it completely disappear. I settled on an Eotech (dot + circle). The 65 moa circle is nice and easy to see even with a strong weapon light. Battery life is not as good as the Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 7:34:45 PM EDT
1 Smallest viewing window of any reflex on the market (smaller than Dr Optic) 2 Dim lit reticle Buy something else (trijicon tri-power, or EO tech 552 RevE) You'll be much happier. EO tech would be my choice (outside of ACOG's)
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:42:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:58:50 PM EDT by Troy]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Why doesn't Trijicon change the reticle then? Surely they know this problem exists and it would seem a small amount of trouble to add other options on new models. That could make it much more competetive among Aimpoint and Eotech products.



My understanding of the physics behind the wash out issue, is that since in all but the darkest conditions the Reflex uses the light around the shooter to generate the reticle image (thus no batteries), there is no simple way around the wash out issue with this type design with out adding light (i.e. Tripower) or having a physical reticle (i.e. etching) in the optical path (but then you would not have a reticle which is "reflected" with the advantages gained with the "one power" system).

Link Posted: 10/10/2003 7:36:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 7:39:53 AM EDT by sgtstinger]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Tell him to get over his trust of batteries issues. Aimpoint and Eotech are in heavy use by the military, and they dont seem that concerned about it. My Aimpoint CET model is still on the same battery that came with it almost a year ago, and its seen heavy use, and even been left on overnight accidentally. Back up irons negate this conern even more. If he doesnt want to trust batteries, then stay with iron sights.
View Quote
Methinks Lumpy196 speaks "The Truth" on this matter...otherwise stated as: Word. Edited to add that I have an EO-Tech 552 on my AR. I REALLY like that sight...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:54:31 AM EDT
Get a Bushnell Holosight. Just put one on my AR. Picked it up for $186. I put it on a set of First Samco M33 handguards and it seems to work just fine. No extra mounts required.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:17:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:43:09 AM EDT
The sight picture is very dark compared to the Eotech or Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 11:07:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:57:38 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 3:53:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2003 3:54:47 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
I use to think the Reflex was a good optic until I got an Aimpoint ML2. My previous thoughts on reflex went right out the door 2 minutes after I mounted the ML2 to my weapon. The ML2 has at least 20% more field of view and the clarity is outstanding. If you're thinking battery wise: the features that allow reflex to work w/o batteries are outweighed by the CET technology in the Aimpoint. Seriously, I haven't been this [i]wowed[/i] by a product since I put Rain-X on my windshield 10 years ago.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 1:37:20 PM EDT
I've got a bushy with a first gen reflex on it and a surefire I have absolutely no problems using it as I read the owners manual and use the polarizing filter. If the reticle is difficult to see you darken the filter this does not always block out the target because as was discussed earlier you only need to use this feature in a looking from dark to bright enviroment. I have shot orange dots on a cardboard backing with this sight in the bright sunlight and had no problems. I completly trust this site and see no probs with it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 7:40:03 PM EDT
The current Trijicon Reflex II models have (3) reticle lighting means: 1. fiberoptic collection 2. tritium power 3. mini-light stick provision I personally have had very few problems with washout, most of which can be solved using the polarizing filter. *Some* people simply have trouble seeing these sights, some don't. I have a Reflex II on my household grab-n-go gun and I don't feel disadvantaged at all. I own many other sights, including a compact ACOG, but I like the Reflex II and don't see the need to replace it. YMMV.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 7:41:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2005 3:36:52 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

The ML2 has at least 20% more field of view and the clarity is outstanding.



That makes no sense at all. The Reflex is used with both eyes open, yielding a 100% FOV. What more can you want? How can an ML2 have more FOV than that?
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 8:56:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:58:30 PM EDT by Troy]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
That makes no sense at all. The Reflex is used with both eyes open, yielding a 100% FOV. What more can you want? How can an ML2 have more FOV than that?



I'm refering to the view through the scope when I use iron sights
When I use iron sights through the two scopes I notice a considerable difference for a few reasons:
1) the Aimpoints window is slightly bigger
2) the Aimpoints glass is not tinted blue
3) the Reflex doesn't center the front sight post in it's glass when zeroed due to it's adjustment system(I have to cant my FIRSH to compensate).
The Aimpoint always has the FSP centered in the glass.

#3 is more of an annoyance but I still prefer the Aimpoint overall.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 9:09:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2005 3:37:13 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

I'm refering to the view through the scope when I use iron sights



Okay, but WHY are you looking through the irons AND the scopes?

Cowitness? It's not more accurate.

On the Reflex, you want to look over top of the irons.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 10:03:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 4:58:15 PM EDT by Troy]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Okay, but WHY are you looking through the irons AND the scopes?



Co-witness is part of the whole system therefore I shoulden't NEED to remove the scope unless it's shattered.
Every time I go to the range I like to shoot with the irons to maintian my skills. Except for the sake of practicing co-witness through the Refex I almost always take the Reflex off cause the co-witness view sucks. On the other hand I just turn off the Aimpoint and flip up the #40 and co-witness no problem.

My Aimpoint is on a flattop with a #40 for BUIS and I have the Reflex mounted on a FIRSH in front of an A2 reciever. I kept the Reflex with the A2 receiver because the dot washes out a lot and I can immediately transition to the irons [through the Reflex] w/o having to flip anything up. The Aimpoint on the other hand doesn't rely on BUIS near as often as the Reflex cause I can turn up the intensity of the scope before needing to deploy the #40.

Both my RX10 and RX14 mounts put the irons in the lower 1/3rd of the Reflex's glass but IMHO the view through the Aimpoint (co-witness) is by far superior to the Reflex.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 3:59:35 AM EDT
Cowitness is where you line up the iron sights AND the optic's dot. You can easily use the irons through the Reflex, though the curvature of the lens changes the POA/POI, so you either zero your irons for when the Reflex is off the gun, or you zero the irons for looking through the Reflex. Luckily the new Aimpoints have such good battery life that you aren't giving up nearly as much as you used to when you choose them.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 1:21:11 PM EDT
I can give you a couple of bad points but they don't apply to a home defense gun. They suck in the rain. I really felt like removing it since you could not see through it. The water droplets on the glass blocked the view and distorted the image, but it was the condensing steam off the barrel that really did it in. Both eyes open, left one see's the target and the right see's the triangle. mentally superimpose both and hope. Managed to pass qualification with a mixture of paper towels and luck. Next time I will try some Rain-X for auto windshields, maybe that will help.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 6:35:39 AM EDT
Actually in another thread, Big_Bore made an excellent point about a positive that the Reflex has that no other sight does. If you are red color-blind, the Reflex is basically the best reflex type sight available in amber. Even though the Aimpoint and EOtech have advantages for most of us, those reticles don't work well at all for people who are red color blind.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 1:00:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 5:01:41 PM EDT by Troy]
i used to be a firm supporter of the reflex(II) sights, and owned a few of them myself. For going to the shooting range and plinking, they're great - no batteries! Not too long after joining my department's swat division and using these sights on a daily basis on my own AR15 and my issued M4, I began to change my mind. Not only did i discover the wash-out with the reticle under varied lighting conditions (especially using our surefire weapon mounted lights indoors or with a white wall background) and the increased visual clarity problems with the blue lens, but discovered a totally unrelated problem not mentioned here before.

The problem surfaced a few months after using the sight on a regular basis - which for us is usually outdoors in dusty/dirty environments. All of a sudden the rifle's zero was a few inches off at only 50 yards, and was very inconsistant. After investigating a little, i discovered that the sight normally has a little spring tention, if you will, between the base and the optic section. You will notice if you bump or manually rock the top optic section that it will spring back into place, returning the zero. The problem is that the adjustment area for the sight and the "return to zero" spring mount is exposed to the elements, and with time in a dusty environmrnt will gunk up so that when the sight is bumped or moved, it will stay to that side and not spring back - this leaves you chasing the zeroing all over the place each time you go to the range, and even between groups if you're not real careful not to touch or bump the sight. I sent my sight to Trijicon, who cleaned and rebuilt it, and the zeroing problem was gone (maybe only a click or two off at 50 yards from one week to the next - not the SEVERAL INCHES off in God knows what direction as before) The sight was good for about 6 months of use, then started not holding zero again, so back to trijicon for another rebuild (at no charge by the way). This time I could see that it was a recurring problem and sold the sight and bought an Eotech.

All the reticle problems aside, just the adjustment mechanism being exposed and prone to getting fouled is enough for me not to recommend this sight for anyone that uses their weapon in the real world for their job, and lives depend on it's accuracy.

Doc
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 1:04:24 AM EDT
Good info Doc.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 9:18:32 PM EDT
That is interesting 411, never heard of that before. I'll have to test out that shock absorber mechanism next time I see one at a show. Thanks, I'll pass on the R-Flx.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 3:31:48 PM EDT
kisara - it's a little tough to check unless the sight is mounted (hard to hold the base part in your hand real steady)- try to find one that's actually on a rifle, and you'll see pretty quick what I'm talkin about Doc
Link Posted: 3/16/2004 1:18:10 AM EDT
I have been using a trijicon tri-power for about 3 months now in a less then friendly environment and I think it works great. I have buddies with EO Techs, but they have to turn them if they want to use them. The only time I have had to use my batteries was in twilight. It works fine without batteries for the other 22+ hours of the day. Its not perfect and there are things I would change (it has a minor "ghosting" effect in the lower left quadrant), but its the best reflex sight I have used so far
Link Posted: 3/16/2004 3:34:33 AM EDT
My 2 cents... Get the Reflex but behind it mount a LMT. That was if/when it washes out...you can use your irons. I toss this combo around myself...sits right behind the purchase of an EoTech. Till then, it's the almighty Aimpoint for this pimp.
Link Posted: 4/5/2004 6:56:46 PM EDT
During a carbine class my friend got some dirt in the base of his reflex (in the hole on top apparently where the reticle shape is projected from) and he put a q-tip in it to clean out the dirt, when he did so not only did the dirt come off but the shape of his triangle reticle came off as well. His sight now has a very large diameter circle for a reticle instead of the nice little triangle. I am still not clear how these scopes work so I may have explained it poorly, however, this was entirely lame and I very surprised that the site is built such that this can happen.
Link Posted: 4/7/2004 9:54:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 5:02:02 PM EDT by Troy]
Has anyone compared the Trijicon Reflex to the Meprolight Reflex?

Both now offer tritiom/fiber and polorized filters.


________________
Rfrogman
"De Oppresso Liber"
http://www.3bn12sfga.com
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 5:02:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2004 2:16:30 PM EDT
Go back to the Aimpoint CompM2, This sight comes with 10,000 hours of battery life. Change the battery once a year If you leave it on full time. You can also easily control the brightness of the dot...
Link Posted: 6/11/2004 10:23:19 AM EDT
The Reflex II I have does wash a little, But Im not convinced its bad enough that one of the first 5 rounds wont hit what Im aiming for. Even in the Picture above its not too bad. Never tried it while under bright lights though.

Im just not a big fan of dots, as I prefer the tip of something to aim at, thus the Triangle reticle. But aside from that Id rather have an ACOG. But if a reflex is too much an ACOG is way off budget.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:36:49 PM EDT
I like my Trijicon extremely well, it beats around in my patrol car all night and has never lost zero.
It is used at work quite a bit for entry's and such and has never failed me.
I'll keep mine.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:48:16 AM EDT
Troy:

I'm not in anyway trying to say you're wrong, but I know a guy who has a Meprolight on his beat around gun, and the Israeli's use them. We all know those guys beat their carbines around, and HAVE to rely on their sights daily. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering if you've had any experience w/ this sight, or where that info came from. Thanks for your help.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 1:31:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
My 2 cents...

Get the Reflex but behind it mount a LMT. That was if/when it washes out...you can use your irons.

I toss this combo around myself...sits right behind the purchase of an EoTech. Till then, it's the almighty Aimpoint for this pimp.



This is my plan as well. I'll have a flip up BUIS so that if the Reflex washes out I'll just flip up the back up sight and be good to go. I really think that for 90% of the shooting that I do the Trijicon Reflex will work fine. I'm going with the military 4.3MOA dot, it'll run right at $400. Midway USA has them on back order until Sept. 8th. I found a couple places with them for less but they don't do C.O.D. so I guess I'll wait for Midway to get them back in stock. Unless someone out there knows of someplace that's got em' for less and can ship C.O.D., if you do shoot me an IM.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 1:38:07 PM EDT
I was considerring these, then the tri-power went on the commercial market and it's gonna make all our aimpoints (and all your reflex's) obsolete.

I myslef am an avid aimpointer who has considered the mepor-21 for its simplicity. But the tripower has the tritium/fiber option in addition to the dot. 'Cept fo the price, it's hard to beat.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:09:14 PM EDT
I've been using a Reflex 2 for several years, pretty heavily, under many different conditions. Including shooting at night with a M900 Surefire. Never have I not been able to pick up the dot, at any time. The dot (4 MOA on this one) in not as blatant on a lit target from a dark posistion, but it has always been easily aquired for me.
At the same time I have used other sights, including EO Tech, and while I like the sights I have experienced power failures with them, particularly in cold weather. If I had to pick one for an emergency it would be the Reflex, no question.
I wonder how many people have actually experienced these problems as opposed to parroting what theyve heard somewhere.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:11:09 PM EDT

I wonder how many people have actually experienced these problems as opposed to parroting what theyve heard somewhere.


+1,000,000,000,000
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:29:34 PM EDT
Yep, no electronics means no switches or batteries and that equals less/no failure when you need it most. You don't have to turn the sight on and you won't forget to turn it off. Water is not a problem because there is no electronic board or battery to worry about getting wet. I was thinking about the Tri-Power but was told that they're junk so I'll go back to plan "A" and get the Reflex.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:08:32 PM EDT
I just ordered a tripower = I'll tell you how 'junky' these are...

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:14:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I just ordered a tripower = I'll tell you how 'junky' these are...




Sounds like a plan. Get a "real world" opinion on how they are instead of a paid one. Keeps us informed.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:28:50 PM EDT
or you could just buy an eotech which will be bright always and never "wash out" plus you never need backup sights. And don't buy a bushnell holosight because it is not much more for an eotech and the eotech is much more durable.

My vote goes for Eotech over anything. and get the 511 rev. f
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:54:17 PM EDT

plus you never need backup sights


Yeah except for when the EOTECH's batteries run out, and you're trying to get your flip-ups up, and the bad guy's got a tripower with tritium and fiber optic back-up.

But you'll be able to throw the EOTECH at him.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:52:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
The Meprolight is a poor-quality copy of the Reflex, with all the same problems, but less durability.

-Troy



I've had both as well. I ad to send my Meprolight back twice for repairs. I sold it eventually and bought a trijicon. It works much better for me (the zero doesn't wander)
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 9:04:44 AM EDT
Does anyone here have one of the Reflex II "RX09" models with the cyalume capability?
If so, to what extent, if any, does the cyalume help with the "washout" issue?

Thanks,
Dan
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