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Posted: 4/18/2007 6:55:37 PM EDT
Does anyone know of anyplace that sells military tracers that will NOT trace with civilian powder? I'm in DIRE NEED of ammo and I cant find any heads!!
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:49:53 AM EDT
[#1]
You might go here.Is Pat's Reloading in Massillion Ohio.I had it bookmarked as BFM Software from a couple years ago so maybe this is a new owner and I did buy some surplus powder from them art that time.You aparently want dead heads if you will that will not light.He has a lots of stuff and prices at least for now are somewhat reasonable link here    http://patsreloading.com/patsrel/prices.htm
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:54:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Are those garenteed that they wont light or is it a hit/miss type thing?

I was just thinking..would it be possible to pull out the little red thing in the rear that makes it "trace"? (not sure of the real term )

ETA: sent pat an email. I'll report back
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:17:58 AM EDT
[#3]
I do not know about the safety of doing a root canal type operation on removing the trace material from the bullet as it does burn upon firing.You are left with a hole in the bullet if you recover one after firing and inspect and seems logical that the hollow area would affect the flight of the projectile.May be a way to soak them in water ect. to deactivate the trace material possibly.I do load and shoot old 30 caliber bullets as plinkers but use them in a sandpit on a wet damp day (Or Winter)They usually are bought cheap but I sure am not going to any great lengths to put a lot of extra time into using them
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:53:14 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
I do not know about the safety of doing a root canal type operation on removing the trace material from the bullet as it does burn upon firing.You are left with a hole in the bullet if you recover one after firing and inspect and seems logical that the hollow area would affect the flight of the projectile.May be a way to soak them in water ect. to deactivate the trace material possibly.I do load and shoot old 30 caliber bullets as plinkers but use them in a sandpit on a wet damp day (Or Winter)They usually are bought cheap but I sure am not going to any great lengths to put a lot of extra time into using them

Well what I need is some ammo to stockpile in case of SHTF. And as ammo prices get more and more insane, I think I may have to turn to reloading. And so far the only mil surp heads I've found are tracers. And tracers wont really do for SHTF. But if I can make it so they WONT trace, that would be great for me.

I'm thinking about ordering 5000 heads from that guy Pat. Gonna see what shipping is like. But does anyone know of a way to surely "deactivate" the "tracing material" without affecting the bullet negatively?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:00:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Anyone?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:05:33 AM EDT
[#6]
Why don't you just buy soft point bullets or fmjs new and call it a day.  Since your wanting to load for SHTF why not spend a little extra and not mess with the bullets since you may have to depend on them.  It'll save you a lot of time and probably more accurate ammo.  Just my thoughts and these are readily available in soft points at least and the fmjs aren't too bad, just check the websites routinely cause they sell out fast.  Just my take on it.

No idea one what to do for the tracer bullets.  I just load them up and shoot them and don't worry if they light or not.  I make sure its wet out though to avoid starting fires.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:09:16 AM EDT
[#7]
I've looked everywhere and can not find FMJs anywhere. And would softpoints be good for SHTF?

What I would PREFER would be SS109/M855 in case of body armor...ya never know. Thats why I wanted to go with the tracers.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:26:03 AM EDT
[#8]
tracers dont have the penetrator anyway.   check polygunbags.com
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:28:34 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
tracers dont have the penetrator anyway.   check polygunbags.com

True but an FMJ probably has a better chance to penetrate than a soft point dont they? .

ETA: polygunbags.com isnt coming up
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 10:18:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Try hi-techammo.com

They show having grade 2 (only 20 percent will light)  M196 tracers for 72 bucks a thousand.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 11:12:22 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Try hi-techammo.com

They show having grade 2 (only 20 percent will light)  M196 tracers for 72 bucks a thousand.


thats 72 bones for 3000.  Ive loaded 100 of them and 20% is about right for tracing loaded with WCC 844.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 11:14:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Cabelas has winchester FMJs according to the website for a decent price.

Winchester bullets

And I wouldn't be too worried about the body armor myself.  If I remember right doesn't .223 go through soft and Level 1 body armor at least already due to velocity?  
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 11:40:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Cabelas Winchester 55gr FMJ is on backorder. Says allow 1-2 weeks.

Just contacted Hi-Tech.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:06:22 PM EDT
[#14]
I would say contact Talon Ammo, they sold tracers all the time that wouldn't light.

It is much more likely that SHTF will be a tornado or blizzard and not zombies, plan for what is most likely to happen not what is almost never likely to happen.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:20:22 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
What I would PREFER would be SS109/M855 in case of body armor...ya never know. Thats why I wanted to go with the tracers.


If what you are worried about is soft armor, everything out of your AR should penetrate the highest level soft armor.

If you are worried about SAPI plates, then the SS109/M855 will not go through it.  The SAPI plates are rated to stop 5.56 NATO rounds, except M995 AP.

If you think you need to punch hard body armor, you'd better go with 300 WM, 338 LM, or something bigger -- like a 50BMG.

Or simply practice your failure drills a lot.

Here are 55gr projectiles @ $339.99 for 6000 or $93.99 for 2000

or

75gr AMAX to make TAP equivalent - $79.99 for 600
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:52:02 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What I would PREFER would be SS109/M855 in case of body armor...ya never know. Thats why I wanted to go with the tracers.


If what you are worried about is soft armor, everything out of your AR should penetrate the highest level soft armor.

If you are worried about SAPI plates, then the SS109/M855 will not go through it.  The SAPI plates are rated to stop 5.56 NATO rounds, except M995 AP.

If you think you need to punch hard body armor, you'd better go with 300 WM, 338 LM, or something bigger -- like a 50BMG.

Or simply practice your failure drills a lot.

Here are 55gr projectiles @ $339.99 for 6000 or $93.99 for 2000

or

75gr AMAX to make TAP equivalent - $79.99 for 600

I thought M855 would go through Level III-IV armor plates?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:03:45 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
I thought M855 would go through Level III-IV armor plates?


www.pointblankarmor.com/plates_tactical.asp

That is one maker, but no Level III and Level IV should stop M855.

There are some 5mm steel plates that will stop multiple hits in quick succession.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:05:17 PM EDT
[#18]
www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml

HARD Body Armor - Rifle Plate Protection Levels  
Level  Tested for Comment


III
.308 Winchester Full Metal Jacket =
7.62 X 51 mm NATO

6 rounds at ~ 2,750 fps
( ~838 mps).
~1/4" Ballistic Steel (6 mm)

~1/2" Ceramic (13 mm)

~1" Polyethylene (25 mm)



IV
.3006 Armor-Piercing
.30 M2 AP

One round at ~ 2,850 fps
(~869 mps)
The highest rating for Body Armor.

~ 3/4" Ceramic (18 mm)

~1/2" Ballistic Steel (12 mm)
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:06:38 PM EDT
[#19]


Level III Steel Rifle Plates
(bare metal before rustproofing shown for clarity)

Shot from ~25 Yards (~23m) with, (Clockwise from 1 o'clock):

.223 (5.56 X 45 mm) • .223 SS-109 • .308 (7.62 X 51 mm) • 7.62 X 39 mm

The .308 is the only round that even showed a slight dent on the backface!
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:08:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Rifle Protection Levels
Level III means the plate is tested to stop 6 rounds of .308 Winchester Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) = NATO 7.62 X 51 mm, and, of course it can handle lesser threats, such as AK-47 / Kalashnikov 7.62 X 39 mm Full Metal Jacket (FMJ).

Level IV means the plate is tested to stop ONE round of .3006 Armor-Piercing (AP) at 868 mps and lesser threats.

The US Military SAPI (Small Arms Protective Insert) mil-spec requires survivability of 3 hits total from:

Caliber Bullet Typical Weapon

5.56 x 45mm/.223        M855/SS-109                     M-16
7.62 × 51mm/.308        Winchester FMJ "NATO ball" Battle Rifles and Machine Guns
7.62 × 54mm               Russian Light Penetrating Steel Dragunov Sniper Rifle

Note that Level IV is a little tougher round to stop than the SAPI mil-spec. Level IV is a .3006 Armor-Piercing round at 868 mps, while the SAPI test is for the slower Russian Light Penetrating Steel round at 706 mps.


Link Posted: 4/20/2007 3:47:38 PM EDT
[#21]
So unless I have a 30-06, there's really not a good chance of penetrating anything over Level III? And even then it would have to be multiple hits with M855/SS109?

Also, whats better for armor piercing: 55 or 62 grain? I would expect 62 because it's heavier but I dunno.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:06:54 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
So unless I have a 30-06, there's really not a good chance of penetrating anything over Level III? And even then it would have to be multiple hits with M855/SS109?


Maybe not even multiple hits with M855.  As I understand, the plates are pretty durable.  You might defeat a hard plate with multi hits in one spot, but I wouldn't count on it.

As I said, practice failure drills.


Also, whats better for armor piercing: 55 or 62 grain? I would expect 62 because it's heavier but I dunno.


The 62gr has a tungsten core, but it was designed to pierce a NATO helmet at 200m, IIRC.

However, as I said you probably won't beat hard plates of III, III+, or IV with either M193 or M855.

You'd need M995AP.

Want to be sure you beat a plate?  Use 338 Lapua or 50 BMG.  
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:11:37 PM EDT
[#23]
LOL yeah. Well I plan on having a Level III or so plate as well so And that is paired with my German flak vest.

But still, I would like some .223 to stockpile without breaking me. So far, these tracers are the cheapest heads I've found.

NO ONE knows how to disable the "tracer compound" without digging it out?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:17:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Wasting your time with tracers.  Not only do they not have the penetrator, they wont stabilize in anything but 1/7 twist, and are slower as well.   www.polygunbag.com
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:26:54 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
Wasting your time with tracers.  Not only do they not have the penetrator, they wont stabilize in anything but 1/7 twist, and are slower as well.   www.polygunbag.com

Dang!! I was so happy until I saw that M855 heads were sold out

If you can find any FMJ or SS109 heads in stock in 55 or 62 gr, PLEASE let me know. The only reason I ever even thought of tracers was because NO ONE has any FMJ or steel core. I would take steel core over anything.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 9:09:50 PM EDT
[#26]
polygunbags still lists Israeli SS 109 bullets.  
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