(this thread was brought from the AR-10 forum)

Doesn't anyone make some low profile back up iron sights that either don't flip up, or don't flip so tall so they could be used always with see through scope mounts???

Strongmad

No, because it wouldn't work. One of the AR's many advantages is the straight-line stock, which reduces muzzleclimb. But because the stock has no drop in it, you can't get your face any lower than the standard irons anyway.

Besides, having a scope mounted as high as these rings mount them (on a gun with lower iron sights) means that your scope is too high for a proper cheek weld and that you've reduced the range where your zero will apply.

The correct solution is to have the scope on a quick-detach mount, and have back-up irons in place. Which is why many folks do exactly that (who'da thunk it?).

-Troy

Troy, don't you think it would be good to have instant access to both your scope and your irons at that same time? That way if you felt like you were needing your scope, and all the sudden something (or someone) came up on you all the sudden, you would have access to your sights. Plus, that way you could leave the scope on most all of the time and use it for a carry handle. I know what your' thinking, 'just get a A1 or A2 with a seethrough scope mount.' Well, I don't like that for two reasons. First of all, I find that with my cheeks, the carry handle iron sights are a little too high anyway, secondly, I feel that the see though channel is too small to properly use the iron sights in battle, furthermore, the use of forward mounted red dot sight is impraed by the carry handle channel, even if the see through scope mount is not installed.

Beau

I am thinking the ultimate set up would be a flat-top with a FF 4 rail handgaurd, so Irons that are lower profile than the standard Ar-15 height, and some not to tall see through rings mounted directly to the flat-top. Let me ask you, what kind of sights does knights use on it 4 rail gaurds that have an extension that slides back over the flat-top on the upper?

Beau

let me try to make this a little simpler.  It would be great to have a scope mounted on an AR-15, but at a lower height than the height of scopes mounted on A1/A2 carry handles.  But is would also be great to have this along with a fixed pair of lower profile iron sights that could be accessed through some see through channels in the scope mounts.  Furthermore, A guy could even get a forward mounted red-dot sight on the handguard slightly behind the front sight, and the red-dot and the irons could be at least partially co-witnessed.  This way, the irons, the co-witnessed reflex, and the low-power scope could all be accessed instantly w/o having to remove stuff, or flip things up etc.  Plus, the scope could be used as a carry handle.  Hmmmmmm.

BEAU - Many combinations already exists.

First, BUIS are just that BUIS, why would you use them if your scope works?? If this is real life on the line shooting, get ARMS throw lever rings and dump the scope if it's broken (IMHO).

Second, Red dot or Reflex sights are heads up shooting optics, IMHO you could not effectively use it if looking through a scope ring channel. Two options are already available, Doctor optic mounted on top of the scope or ACOG's with BAC feature.

The rail mounted flip-up front sight from KAC puts the post at the same height as A2 gas block sights.

With that said, it's sounds like you would be well served with an ACOG or compact ACOG (with BAC). You would have a low power scope and dot sight both accessible at the same time. Then choose a BUIS that fits under your scope.

If you want also access to your BUIS at all times, the carry handle mounted ACOG's would allow low power scope usage, dot sight and irons all accessible all the time... oh ya, you also get the carry handle feature too... Trijicon has already figured it out, Trijicon rules.. [headbang]

I've recently been convinced that the best overall is the NSN ACOG with a Docter site on top.

:)

Trijicon did something to the effect of what you are talking about with the TA01NSN with the iron sites on the top.

Unfortunately, the placement of the sites makes them quite ineffective beyond 20 feet or so, in my experience.

Many people refer to these irons as junk, but I would rather have them than not.  No place in my home will I shoot beyond 20 feet.  So they serve their purpose for me.

A Dr. Optic would be nice, but too much money, IMHO, to spend on top of the pricey ACOG.

I see two roles for an AR.

1) CQB - A3 upper with the red dot of your choice. Nice short M-4 barrel. Shooting with both eyes open with the red dot or going normal cheek weld and using the ready (non-flip up) iron sights. Flipping up sights isn't something you'll always have time for in a CQB situation.

2) Designated marksmen rifle - A2 upper with an ACOG. Nice light 20 inch barrel. The iron sights are used out to 100 yards with the normal tight cheek weld allowing for fast shots. As the targets become more distant slower more deliberate shots are made by using the ACOG. The 20 inch barrel gives the tiny .223 a bit more killing range and plenty enough for most terrain where shots beyond 250 yards are very very rare if even possible.

Welcome to the very little club.
This set up is highly under estimated by those who have not used it.