The real weakness of the AR15?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The real weakness of the AR15?

Posted: 1/9/2005 12:49:05 AM EDT

First of all ,I am not trolling!
I was noticing the different directions the ar is going these days.
To recap: 6.8spc, XM8, KKF, leitner-Wise (sp?)
My thought would be to adopt a new bullet design that would behave like the original 1x12 twist (?)
barrel and tumble on impact if shot out of a 1x9, 1x7 barrel.
Something similer to the Russain 7n6?
Where do you think they got the idea from?
(smart ass voice on: Oh yes you in the back, Mr Stoner please put your hand down! smart ass voice off)
Wouldn't be more cost effective to develope a round that would tumble even when it hit at transonic velocity?
I know a couple of marines who would love to have that in their A4's

Posted: 1/9/2005 1:01:36 AM EDT

[#1]

the 5.56mm IS effective.
it makes a mess out of your insides. And it does yaw and then fragments. a nasty wound channel.

I don't care what caliber you're shooting, you're never going to get one stop shots unless you cause considerable damage to the central nervous system (headshot, sever spinal chord/brain stem)

people that bitch about the 5.56mm round are people who see movies of people getting blown away by shotguns and war movies of guys being shot in the torso and falling down dead instantly. This is usually never the case.

7.62 punches a 7.62mm hole, tumbles and produces a wound channel as large as the bullet is long.

5.56 does this,

oh, and if you clean your AR it will not malfunction.

Posted: 1/9/2005 1:06:19 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
First of all ,I am not trolling!
I was noticing the different directions the ar is going these days.
To recap: 6.8spc, XM8, KKF, leitner-Wise (sp?)
My thought would be to adopt a new bullet design that would behave like the original 1x12 twist (?)
barrel and tumble on impact if shot out of a 1x9, 1x7 barrel.
Something similer to the Russain 7n6?
Where do you think they got the idea from?
(smart ass voice on: Oh yes you in the back, Mr Stoner please put your hand down! smart ass voice off)
Wouldn't be more cost effective to develope a round that would tumble even when it hit at transonic velocity?
I know a couple of marines who would love to have that in their A4's

The 1:12 twist rate has nothing to do with tumbling in soft tissue, only stability during flight through air. M193 will still tumble and fragment in soft tissue with a 1:9 and 1:17 twist rate. M855, the current issue bullet, will also fragment and tumble with 1:9 and 1:7, but is mostly designed for penetration so it fragments at shorter ranges but will penetrate body armor at 600 yards.

Carbines like the M4 reduce the fragmentation range and potential of 5.56. The M16A4 is far more dangerous in terms of ballistics and will produce the most dramatic wounds out of any current issue service rifle caliber on the planet. 5.45, 7.62x39, and 7.62 NATO all produce less sever wounds compared to 5.56.

Many 75/77gr 5.56 bullets that are available are some of the most impressive anti-personel cartridges in production.

Posted: 1/9/2005 1:20:12 AM EDT

[#3]

there is no weakness imo--just keep it clean and mags/ammo good

h/w you do make a point--i too believe that a heavier round should be used, but then they came out w/ the 77gr: problem mostly solved

5.56 going fast emough(bbl and gr.vs poweder ratio) and a 5.56 will screw you over

Posted: 1/9/2005 1:46:40 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
My thought would be to adopt a new bullet design that would behave like the original 1x12 twist (?)
barrel and tumble on impact if shot out of a 1x9, 1x7 barrel.
Something similer to the Russain 7n6?
Where do you think they got the idea from?
(smart ass voice on: Oh yes you in the back, Mr Stoner please put your hand down! smart ass voice off)
Wouldn't be more cost effective to develope a round that would tumble even when it hit at transonic velocity?
I know a couple of marines who would love to have that in their A4's

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

Posted: 1/9/2005 2:56:57 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

Consider yoself administratively bitch slapped.

Posted: 1/9/2005 3:11:42 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Consider yoself administratively bitch slapped.

+1

Posted: 1/9/2005 3:51:08 AM EDT

[#7]

I am sick of hearing all the stories of the AR-15/M-16/M-4,
jamming with one spec of dust in it, non effective round, and all the
other horse shit that the experts on the internet continue to pass of
as the Gospel.

This site is about the only place that the truth about "the black rifle" can be seen.

Yes, the AR system does possibly have some dissadvantages, any weapon system.
They key is to overcome the dissadvantages with either training or custom configuring
the rifle to ones own needs.

Scott

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:17:23 AM EDT

[#8]

The biggest weakness of the AR-15 is the lack of happy switch. Wish the ATF would have a simple tax stamp for that. $2000 tax stamp and you can make any AR happy. That would kick ass almost as much as no full auto law at all.

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:22:24 AM EDT

[#9]

The mags are a "weakness"

You need really good fully operational magazines for the most reliability in the field. Unfortunately, even NIW Post-Ban mags don't always perform properly. You will need high quality mag springs with Magpul followers.

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:25:03 AM EDT

[#10]

Nothing at all wrong with the M-16/AR as is. I've rarely had a jam and you'd have to look long and hard to find a semi-auto rifle that can take as much abuse as the M-16/AR family a still be as accurate as they are. Me and my brother hunt in East Texas where the deer aren't that big compared to the rest of the nation. We use ARs, H&R in .223, and he ocasionally uses a Rem 786 in .222. I've lost count as to how many deer we've taken with a 223 with only one shot. Anyone who doesn't believe that the 223/5.56 is not a potent man/beast stopper is just misinformed.

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:48:25 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

+1 Well said Troy

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:03:11 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
The mags are a "weakness"

You need really good fully operational magazines for the most reliability in the field. Unfortunately, even NIW Post-Ban mags don't always perform properly. You will need high quality mag springs with Magpul followers.

Mags are usually the weakest link in any QUALITY weapon system.

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

+10000

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:04:26 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
The mags are a "weakness"

You need really good fully operational magazines for the most reliability in the field. Unfortunately, even NIW Post-Ban mags don't always perform properly. You will need high quality mag springs with Magpul followers.

I have one of the new HK " high reliability" magazines on order.
It will be here tomorrow. I will be anxious to see if it is any better.
USGI mags have always worked for me.

Scott

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:13:43 AM EDT

[#14]

E-mann you must remeber that we have a much better ammo seletion then the military.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:17:56 AM EDT

[#15]

The biggest weakness of the AR 15 platform???

All of the people who are either uninformed/unedjucated, those who just dont like it for one reason or another, or are just plain stupid as a bag of bricks, and constantly and eagerly spread untruth's, innaccuracies, and/or just out and out lies about the ammo, the weapon, etc.

Thats the biggest problem.

Another problem, (and this is just one example) is when folks put together an AR from various no name parts from the bargain bin at the gun show, of unknown manufacture or quality, and then dont understand why their AR doesnt run. They then get frustrated and sell it to someone else, who doesnt have a clue, and is usually new to AR's, and then their first AR experience is less than impressive. Couple that with all the crazy mis-information they most likey have heard, been told, or read somewhere, and you can start to get the picture.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:21:25 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
The biggest weakness of the AR 15 platform???

All of the people who are either uninformed/unedjucated, those who just dont like it for one reason or another, or are just plain stupid as a bag of bricks, and constantly and eagerly spread untruth's, innaccuracies, and/or just out and out lies about the ammo, the weapon, etc.

Thats the biggest problem.

Another problem, (and this is just one example) is when folks put together an AR from various no name parts from the bargain bin at the gun show, of unknown manufacture or quality, and then dont understand why their AR doesnt run. They then get frustrated and sell it to someone else, who doesnt have a clue, and is usually new to AR's, and then their first AR experience is less than impressive. Couple that with all the crazy mis-information they most likey have heard, been told, or read somewhere, and you can start to get the picture.

Uninformed and uneducated aside, your second statement hits the nail right on the head. Half assed builders with half assed parts.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:23:54 AM EDT

[#17]

" The real weakness of the AR15? "

ONLY ONE!

No select fire.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:37:55 AM EDT

[#18]

I was an Unit Armorer when I was in the servcive. I can't honestly remember a jam or malfunction with any M-16, what ever version we used. Weakness? Not the rifle, how about the shooter(not maintaning), the ammo(my BM has eaten EVERYTHING), and mags. A friend of mine who WAS a gig .308 guy has converted to ARs, he was under the assumption that an AR did not have good range, I proved him wrong by hitting targets out to 500yards, he converted on the spot. Besides, most combat takes place within 200yds.

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:38:14 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The biggest weakness of the AR 15 platform???

All of the people who are either uninformed/unedjucated, those who just dont like it for one reason or another, or are just plain stupid as a bag of bricks, and constantly and eagerly spread untruth's, innaccuracies, and/or just out and out lies about the ammo, the weapon, etc.

Thats the biggest problem.

Another problem, (and this is just one example) is when folks put together an AR from various no name parts from the bargain bin at the gun show, of unknown manufacture or quality, and then dont understand why their AR doesnt run. They then get frustrated and sell it to someone else, who doesnt have a clue, and is usually new to AR's, and then their first AR experience is less than impressive. Couple that with all the crazy mis-information they most likey have heard, been told, or read somewhere, and you can start to get the picture.

Uninformed and uneducated aside, your second statement hits the nail right on the head. Half assed builders with half assed parts.

+1000

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:47:20 AM EDT

[#20]

Only weakness I see is its not a long distance gun. Too light of bullet for sniper use because of wind. Also the are extremely addicive, once ya own 1 ya want more. The only cure is to get more!

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:51:10 AM EDT

[#21]

I think the only weakness of the AR15 is the reader who believes everything negative comment he reads about it.
The gun writers banter between 5.56 and 6.8 is about as ridiculous as John Kerrys' bid for the white house.
-Remember the handgun trials back in the mid 80's 9mm vs .45? Who cares its up to the individuals preference and wallet.
The 5.56 may require a hit in a lethal area to actually kill all calibers do, but poor bullet placement is to blame for a round that only wounds - try another shot or two.
Shoot'em where they are the biggest and shoot them more than once. I can say for myself I wouldn't want to stop a 5.56 round.
The jungles of Viet Nam were fertilized sufficiently from the 5.56!

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:51:42 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Consider yoself administratively bitch slapped.

+1

Down Mini-Me! Stop humping the M4!

Posted: 1/9/2005 5:53:45 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The biggest weakness of the AR 15 platform???

All of the people who are either uninformed/unedjucated, those who just dont like it for one reason or another, or are just plain stupid as a bag of bricks, and constantly and eagerly spread untruth's, innaccuracies, and/or just out and out lies about the ammo, the weapon, etc.

Thats the biggest problem.

Another problem, (and this is just one example) is when folks put together an AR from various no name parts from the bargain bin at the gun show, of unknown manufacture or quality, and then dont understand why their AR doesnt run. They then get frustrated and sell it to someone else, who doesnt have a clue, and is usually new to AR's, and then their first AR experience is less than impressive. Couple that with all the crazy mis-information they most likey have heard, been told, or read somewhere, and you can start to get the picture.

Let the church say AMEN!!!! Out of all the rifles I have ever owned or used I have found no suitable replacement for the Black Rifle. Not an FNC, not the M96, nothing. With Bushmaster now turning out a HELL of a 308 AR platform....it can be said that the AR is probably the end all be all of tactical rifles.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:09:02 AM EDT

[#24]

The ONLY real weakness in the AR15 is the owner.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:09:05 AM EDT

[#25]

Read the Oracle of the ammo.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:27:39 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
the 5.56mm IS effective.
it makes a mess out of your insides. And it does yaw and then fragments. a nasty wound channel.

I don't care what caliber you're shooting, you're never going to get one stop shots unless you cause considerable damage to the central nervous system (headshot, sever spinal chord/brain stem)

people that bitch about the 5.56mm round are people who see movies of people getting blown away by shotguns and war movies of guys being shot in the torso and falling down dead instantly. This is usually never the case.

7.62 punches a 7.62mm hole, tumbles and produces a wound channel as large as the bullet is long.

5.56 does this,
www.ammo-oracle.com/images/75tap.jpg

oh, and if you clean your AR it will not malfunction.

I almost never clean my Bushmaster carbine. I run Wolf or any old cheap crap I can find. It never malfunctions. I like to open it up and see stuff in there that looks like the crank case of an old Jeep...

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:27:54 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

Consider yoself administratively bitch slapped.

Posted: 1/9/2005 6:47:56 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The mags are a "weakness"

You need really good fully operational magazines for the most reliability in the field. Unfortunately, even NIW Post-Ban mags don't always perform properly. You will need high quality mag springs with Magpul followers.

Mags are usually the weakest link in any QUALITY weapon system.

That's relative. You can have a quality AK variant (not some Romanian reject, but a high quality modern AK variant) that spits out bullets all day long without magazine failures even if you use cheap surplus steel mags that have rust and crap inside of them.

The AR mags are NOT cheap... but the followers tilt (Magpuls almost mandatory), the springs are weak (Wolff springs recommended) and the aluminum bodies can be easily dented or damaged. Plus for some odd reason they may just not want to work right 100% of the time.

The problem with AK mags is sometimes the springs are TOO stiff and it double feeds. But a decent AK mag will not have a tilting follower but you sacrifice the BHO.

The BHO on the AR15 relies on the follower and spring... so again, you go back to the follower and spring. A malfunctioning BHO on an AR15 is a bad thing in the field.

Posted: 1/9/2005 9:10:56 AM EDT

[#29]

The only weakness I can see is its fragility as a bayonet-mounted weapon. If it becomes completely jammed or otherwise inoperable, it isn't much of a club. I've seen stocks that crumpled and split with one blow.

Posted: 1/9/2005 9:18:35 AM EDT

[#30]

+1

Posted: 1/9/2005 10:17:22 AM EDT

[#31]

I agree that the main weakness of the AR-15 is the lack of user knowlage.

Mechanically, the main weakness I feel is the Gas system.

Posted: 1/9/2005 10:44:21 AM EDT

[#32]

Now that you mention it, the only time my M16A2 jammed on a regular basis was with blanks and a BFA.

Running live ammo I hardly ever had a problem. I can remember some double feeds and some FTE, but that was usually in some horredously muddy or dusty conditions, and it was nothing that immediate action or a mag change didn't resolve.

I agree that the 5.56 AR platform is NOT a long range system. It is a intermediate range at most. But then again it was designed BECAUSE the military decided that the M1A/M14 had more range than they needed, and they wanted something lighter.

I honestly think that there is nothing wrong with the AR platform, and if the military re-developed the standard issue ammunition, it would still be top dog on tomorrow's battlefield.

Posted: 1/9/2005 10:56:23 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Now that you mention it, the only time my M16A2 jammed on a regular basis was with blanks and a BFA.

Running live ammo I hardly ever had a problem. I can remember some double feeds and some FTE, but that was usually in some horredously muddy or dusty conditions, and it was nothing that immediate action or a mag change didn't resolve.

I agree that the 5.56 AR platform is NOT a long range system. It is a intermediate range at most. But then again it was designed BECAUSE the military decided that the M1A/M14 had more range than they needed, and they wanted something lighter.

I honestly think that there is nothing wrong with the AR platform, and if the military re-developed the standard issue ammunition, it would still be top dog on tomorrow's battlefield.

speaking of blanks and jams, SAWs with blanks make me want to cry :-/

Posted: 1/9/2005 11:15:25 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I almost never clean my Bushmaster carbine. I run Wolf or any old cheap crap I can find. It never malfunctions. I like to open it up and see stuff in there that looks like the crank case of an old Jeep...

You also almost never put your Bushy through the kind of crap that a military rifle has to go through in a real combat situation. That crankcase gunk will catch the tiniest bits of dust and gunk and glue your rifle together quick. Then you'll be in a predicament! CLP will NOT loosen up that kind of crap. It's time for the dip in solvent cure for you then! Not fun, especially when your life depends on the rifle working 100%.

Clean often, clean early.

And I heartily concur with mjohn3006 about a $2000 tax on new-manufactured MGs. Make it REALLY expensive, sure! But at least those creeps that bought a bunch of MGs before the ban, and are now selling guns they bought at $500 for $10,000 won't be winning any more. Mmmmm...full auto....mmmm.

Posted: 1/9/2005 11:20:36 AM EDT

[#35]

The 5.56 round. Why does the service still think a rodent round is a good thing??? And no I'm not trolling either.

Posted: 1/9/2005 12:26:15 PM EDT

[#36]

I don't see any weaknesses in the AR15.

First of all 5.56/.223 ammo is not the AR15. I personally believe that at the appropriate ranges 0-125 yards (depending on barrel length) and the proper projectile the 5.56 round is very effective. I think that there are about 10,000 Iraqi terrorists who would agree with that. But even if you don't agree, then you have options with AR platform! If you don't like 5.56, then a .50 Beowulf or .458 SOCOM or even a .50 BMG upper for your AR. The flexability of the AR is it's strength.

Second, the AR15 has become more than just a civilian copy of the M16. The AR15 has carved out it's own role in our society and it fills that role quite well. AR15 carbines allow civilian and law enfocement users to deliver highly lethal firepower capable of defeating soft body armor in a compact, customizable weapon. In my opinion it is the ultimate CQB weapon, which makes it perfect for law enforcement and personal security.

Posted: 1/9/2005 3:30:55 PM EDT

[#37]

Honestly, I don't see any weakness in the AR design at all. For a well versed shooter it is an extension of the mind at CQB ranges. It's so ergonomic, accurate, and easy to configure for personal tastes. Reliable too. Just remember the ABCR rule!

Posted: 1/9/2005 3:33:17 PM EDT

[#38]

Only one I see is the M16 platform is prone to jamming when dirtied with foreign particles(Water, dirt, sand)

Other than that, most malfunctions are magazine related, and user.

Posted: 1/9/2005 3:47:09 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

Consider yoself administratively bitch slapped. hr

img147.exs.cx/img147/8456/slap5co.jpg

Sorry, but a true BSA (Bitch Slap Association) slap is with the back of the hand...

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:08:14 PM EDT

[#40]

It is the Magazine. Weakest part of the weapon!

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:35:14 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
" The real weakness of the AR15? "

ONLY ONE!

No select fire.

+1 and ammo shortages.

Posted: 1/9/2005 4:36:44 PM EDT

[#42]

There is SO much wrong with your "information" that I won't bother to address your points.

Please, read the Ammo Oracle completely before posting again.

-Troy

Troy, I know it gets frustrating, but you have to forgive us unwashed masses... even Jim Sullivan wrote of the the tumbing within a body due to the slow 1x12 twist, which he thought worsened the terminal performance of the 5.56 as compared to the original 1x14.

But for the rest of us.. Troy and company have done some great ammo testing and research. Read, digest.