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Posted: 10/23/2004 6:23:05 AM EST
just in case (or when....) things go bad on our soil.........

what ammo?
what types/kinds of magazines?
what barrel length?
full or semi auto?
what kind of optics?


just curious....
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:34:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:53:07 AM EST
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:57:04 AM EST
I'd go with STICKMAN's version, cause mine is almost the same sans the railed fore end and EOTech.

Collapsible stock and 16" barrel for me, easier to manuver in or out of a vehicle/building, etc.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:14:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 7:26:57 AM EST by Variablebinary]
Rifle: Bushmaster A3
Barrel: HBAR 20" 1:9.
Optics: EOTECH 510
Ammo: Staggered M193 and M855
Mags: La Belle USGI

A full size HBAR will not overheat easily, even after prolonged shooting, and still maintain accuracy at all ranges. A 20" barrel means I can be as far as I need be to keep from being shot, but still be a threat to what I'm shooting at.

M855 is a must for better barrier/armor/distance/autoglass penetration. M193 for lethality out to 150 yards - 175 yards

Hopefully no one will ever be put into a situation where they have to learn how effective their configuration really is...

Semi auto: There will be better equipped entry teams for room clearing, and they will make better use of full auto. Semi auto saves ammo as well
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:35:51 AM EST
20 inch Govt. flat top with Cav Arms C1 stock. LMT or Larue BUIS.

Lightweight, simple, and makes 5.56 give its best.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:36:48 AM EST
Ammo; Win Q3131A or Fed Lake City M193

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:46:42 AM EST
I don't think anyone can give you the perfect rifle for homeland defense but they can give the perfect rifle for their personal situation. I think the AR is a perfect homeland defense rifle. I recommend finding a basic suitable platform be it a 20, 16, 14.5 or 11.5 and then train long and hard with it until you are familar with it function and capablities. There is enough information on the site here to select what criteria is required for your situation.

On a course I took a couple years ago, the instuctor made a very valid point. He said, have a look around your house and see what the ranges are to someone who might be trying to shoot at you. Both inside the house and from your area to other houses. This will give you the best indication of the ranges that you must be prepared to deal with. In most cases, the ranges will be very short and this should drive your selection of your ideal rifle for you. It will also add in the type of training you will have to do.

A number of people will say this ammo or that ammo or this barrel length or that length. I think you should review your situation and select a basic AR. In the end, whatever you are proficent and comfortable with is your best bet.

In terms of necessary accessories. I would recommend you look at low light situations so a weapon mounted flashlight might be in order. Positive target identification is critical for everyone. A tritium front post is also good for night engagements.

I say find a rifle and buy a couple cases of quality ammo and train hard. I always recall the old saying "Beware of the man with just one gun as he probably knows how to use it."



Jeff
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:52:04 AM EST
Of course that all being said, my favourite rifle is my armalite 16 inch with mid length gas system sporting a TA31. I am also partial to my Bushmaster 11.5 with an aimpoint and back up irons.

In terms of ammo, right now I have M193 but I am seriously examining 77gr OTM. I just purchased a cannelure cutter and I am looking forward to doing some experiementing. USGI 30 round magazines and semi auto.



Jeff


Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:26:35 AM EST
I'd go with stickmans setup with a 20" HBAR & a 3x ACOG
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:02:35 AM EST
The more I think about it, the more I also have to comment that I wouldn't feel outgunned with my below setup, as long as I wasn't doing CQB stuf.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:06:53 AM EST
Fal
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:13:45 AM EST
Personal preference is mine w/ Staggered M193 and M855

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:31:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 9:35:59 AM EST by SWO_daddy]
US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

As much en-bloc'ed M2 Ball as I could carry in a combat rig.

Many not be as handy as an M4gery in close quarters, but it cleared a shitload of houses in France, Holland, Belgium, and Germany w/o a problem.

And when it is time to fuck some Tango's world up good, nothing is better than a can of 30-06 ass whoop.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:34:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 9:36:09 AM EST by Dieselman]

Originally Posted By PalmTree:
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags


You forgot to mention a wooden stick to use as a weapon when that combination proves to be not up to the task!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:46:38 AM EST
Although the M-1 or m-14 is awesome for knockdown you did ask what kind of AR or M-16 I would want. Mine would have to be the M-16A4 with a M-4 m-203 combo in a close second.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:11:23 AM EST
I have several AR's now - my number one weapon would have to be an AR15 carbine variant with a reflex sight and backup iron sights. FAL's if I need longer range - obviously - you can't carry a whole bunch of guns on your person........I'd be happy with either my AR or FAL - they compliment each other in my opinion but neither can do the job of the other 100 percent - FAL for range and ballistics. AR for close quarters/ light weight, etc
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:14:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By PalmTree:
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags



Didn't see a smiley in your post. Is that what you have or are you suggesting that this would be a good combo?? If the later, may I suggest you post less and read more.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:15:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:28:55 AM EST
If you have several members of the household, may I suggest that you arm each member with a different and specialized weapon. One member would have a long range reach out and touch someone gun, one would have a shotgun, one would have a subgun or carbine/SBR. You would move as a unit, covering each other. One of you is an offensive sniper, another is defensive (shotgun), and the other is capable of doing ether decently.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:38:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dieselman:

Originally Posted By PalmTree:
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags


hen


I don't need a stick. I've got some nunchucks and some ninja throwing stars.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:39:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 10:42:06 AM EST by PalmTree]

Originally Posted By DOA:

Originally Posted By PalmTree:
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags



Didn't see a smiley in your post. Is that what you have or are you suggesting that this would be a good combo?? If the later, may I suggest you post less and read more.hr



All your AR pistols belong to us.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:51:57 AM EST
My OlyArms A2 carbine...
16" LW barrel with Phantom 5C2
FIRSH FF rail system with KAC panels and vertical grip
Surefire frankenlight
OKO 4MOA sight
Hogue grip
M4 stock
GG&G single point sling plate
home made 1.25" QD single point sling
a bunch of 30 round USGI mags with MagPuls
Winchester Q3131A and 64grain Power Point PLus
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:14:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 11:18:43 AM EST by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

As much en-bloc'ed M2 Ball as I could carry in a combat rig.

Many not be as handy as an M4gery in close quarters, but it cleared a shitload of houses in France, Holland, Belgium, and Germany w/o a problem.

And when it is time to fuck some Tango's world up good, nothing is better than a can of 30-06 ass whoop.

www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2004-09-05/midwestgunexchange_1094939338_sprg_m1garand4.JPG



oh oh, but the garand is heavy, and too long, and uncomfortable, and doesnt look as cool with my oakleys for CQB, and the recoil hurts my delicate middle managment hands...

I'm with you dude. The M1 Garand put a world of hurt on lots of germans, and didnt give a shit about typical combat ranges, rails and red dots while doing it. Those old timers really had balls of steel. Somehow they mananged CQB, house clearing, distance shooting, running, jumping, swimming, urban brawling, you name it, with a big ass, heavy amd long rifle. Hard not to be impressed with the soldiers of that generation. Tough as nails, the men of that day...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:22:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dieselman:

Originally Posted By PalmTree:
AR pistol
62 grain Olympic 5.56 mm ammo
Tasco Red Dot sight for optics
no iron sights
USA 40 round mags




You forgot to mention a wooden stick to use as a weapon when that combination proves to be not up to the task!


+1,000,000,000,000
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:23:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 11:24:42 AM EST by mr_smashy]


M1s DON'T FRONT
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:50:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
oh oh, but the garand is heavy, and too long, and uncomfortable, and doesnt look as cool with my oakleys for CQB, and the recoil hurts my delicate middle managment hands.....



He he he

Anyone who needs a reminder of what an awesome weapon the M1 is should just watch Band Of Brothers again.

One of these days I'm going to get a GI style 1911 and an 18" barrel for my 870 and shoot some high speed/low drag 3 gun match WW2 style.

My favorite days during CMP week are Friday (Springfield Match) and Saturday (Garand Match). Nothing like the sound of 100+ M1s on the line going to town during rapid fire.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:25:30 PM EST
Ammo: Whatever your particular rifle likes to eat. (Reliably)

Mags: Labelle USGI 30 rounders (at least 10 loaded & ready) and a few backups.

Barrel length: 16". I don't own a 16" barrel personally, but it would seem to be a nice medium between 14.5" (or shorter) and 20". If you live in a rural area, 20" for sure.

Full or Semi-Auto: Semi. Full auto does have it's advantages if you plan on being a "Lone Wolf" especially for engaging multiple opponents, (and getting the hell out of there) but all in all a semi-auto makes more sense.

Optics: Steel sights with tritium inserts...OR... along with an Aimpoint ML2. Not as fancy as an Eotech, but with good battery life.

Extras: A good sling. Spare batteries. A 1911 .45 ACP. (VERY IMPORTANT) Some Chip McCormick clips for it. Mag pouch for your LaBelles. PHANTOM flash hider. There's a ton more stuff....maybe I shouldn't have started...LOL!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:26:55 PM EST
Get a winchester 1897 trench broom a 1911 and the M1 and shoot three gun that would be cool!
As for the perfect Homeland Defense weapon?

Something light that packs a punch, Uber Reliable, readily obtainable spares and ease of maintenance this makes me lean toward the AR.... and for the remainder "KISS" stay away from battery powered goodies... Trijicon or Meprolight irons would be the way to go or Trijicon glass.
I know folks don't like the reflex but I will never have to change batteries, and it serves me well.
But I was leaning toward an ACOG TA01 or TA 31 in my comment above. If it ever came down to fighting in the streets getting batteries could become tough......Simpler is better nothing to forget to bring , "Dammit ZIPsnap Batteries ZIPsnap dead ZIPsnapZIPsnapZIPsnapZIPsnap SONOVA! I FORGOT SPARE BATTERIES!" BUIS would definitely need to be mounted and usable.....
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:59:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
Ammo; Win Q3131A or Fed Lake City M193
home.carolina.rr.com/rambosky/NobanM4A1.jpg



Depends, if the 6.8SPC is available (at the time), then that my chioce. Other wise Win Q3131A or Fed Lake City M193 or some of the heavier loadings in 75 or 77 gr. I like to to keep all on tap.
One can never have enough.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:00:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 3:29:31 PM EST by fq1234]
CQB - I like the 11.5 inch AR.
For moderate distances, I like the 16 inch Bushmaster Superlight.
For longer distances, I would ditch the AR for a larger caliber.



Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:04:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:06:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1

As much en-bloc'ed M2 Ball as I could carry in a combat rig.

Many not be as handy as an M4gery in close quarters, but it cleared a shitload of houses in France, Holland, Belgium, and Germany w/o a problem.

And when it is time to fuck some Tango's world up good, nothing is better than a can of 30-06 ass whoop.

www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2004-09-05/midwestgunexchange_1094939338_sprg_m1garand4.JPG



+1!!!
I need to get an M1 to complement my GI M1911. Gotta love those big ol' bad ass old-school sticks...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:50:49 PM EST
anything that get's the job done



Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:57:04 PM EST
Colt Govt Carbine, light weight, and deadly accurate

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:59:09 PM EST
For a general purpose urban / suburban carbine, I think it's hard to beat a 16" AR with a telestock and a red dot backed by irons.

That being said, guns are job specific, and I do like having options. 5.56 isn't my first choice for distance work.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 5:11:50 PM EST
Colt M16A2 lower receiver (it gives me semi auto to use most of the time, and full auto if I need it);
KAC two-stage full auto trigger;
Magpul MIAD grip with spare Colt bolt;
Magpul M93A MSS;
Magpul single point sling mount;
LMT rifle length MRP upper receiver assembly with 18" stainless steel and 16" chrome lined 1/7 barrels;
Colt M-16 bolt carrier group with HD extractor spring;
TA-31F ACOG in LaRue ACOG mount;
Troy Industries front and rear BUIS;
Attilla IR laser;
LMT 40mm rail mounted grenade launcher;
Dieter/CQD rail mounted sling loop;
Dieter/CQD sling;
Insight Technologies head mounted M.U.M.;
A buttload of MK 262 MOD 1;
OPS Inc 12th model suppressor;
USGI 30 rounders with Magpul Self Leveling Followers and Magpul Ranger Plates.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 5:16:55 PM EST
that's a lotta gadgets!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 5:17:44 PM EST


Bushmaster M4E3 with 14/5" barrel and Phantom fs. Aimpoint ML2, #22M68 mount with cantilever spacer, M3 light, YHM FF handguards, side-mount front sling mount, USMC M4 sling and Hogue pistol grip. MAD BUIS, Knights foregrip, 6-position collapsible stock.

That's my choice for smokin' Terrorists.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 5:23:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
that's a lotta gadgets!



Note that the basic setup is pretty sound. Should any of the add ons fail (of course, not everything would be on the rifle at all times) I would still have a solid rifle.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 5:49:11 PM EST
I have the following weapons i prefer for home defense

remington 870 12 ga or a ithaca mod 37 both with 18" bbl and surefire wpns light loaded with federal low recoil 00 buckshot.

a glock 19 with a glock wpns light or a colt 1911 army .45


Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:10:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 6:14:19 PM EST by mr_smashy]

Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Get a winchester 1897 trench broom a 1911 and the M1 and shoot three gun that would be cool!
As for the perfect Homeland Defense weapon?

Something light that packs a punch, Uber Reliable, readily obtainable spares and ease of maintenance this makes me lean toward the AR....

SNIP



It's for those same reasons that make you lean toward the AR that I lean toward the M1. I believe the the Garand defines the bench marks for elgeant rifle design and reliablity. I also believe if I had to chose one rifle to shoot for the rest of my life, it would be an M1.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:12:20 PM EST
"Homeland Defense"?

What do they say about gunfights? "Rule 1: have a gun." If we're talking about a weapon for responding to a terrorist attack that means a rifle that's with you _all_ of the time, never more than a "short sprint to the car" away. Not a top-pf-the-line safe queen with all your favorite expensive toys mounted (unless you actually _are_ carrying it in the trunk 24/7).

Currently that means a $90 SKS and a fistful of stripper-clipped M43 in the truck. Far from ideal, but much better than a sharp stick. And much better than any rifle that's locked in a safe at home.

Eventually it will be replaced. Probably by a no-frills M16A1-clone (the lazy/cheap option) or a lightweight carbine (16" LW barrel, 'A1 upper or flat-top upper with LaRue BUIS, M4 stock or something like the YHM skeleton stock; the more work/more fun/more money option). Said rifle to be tested with at least 500 rounds of M193, cleaned, lightly lubed, and vacuum-sealed in a plastic bag with 4 or 5 loaded magazines, to be pulled out and PMCS'd once every couple of years...

And, it should go without saying, a pistol on my belt all of the time, no matter where I am.

I don't have any illusions or fantasies about taking out an al Qaeda terrorist team, but in the extremely unlikely event I'm there when something happens I may have the chance to disrupt and delay their plans long enough for some civilians to escape and some responders to arrive. Hey, if I survive that I should never have to pay for a beer again, right? And if not, it beats 25 years parked in the rest home waiting for the minimum-wage flunk to change my Depends...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:34:22 PM EST

Those old timers really had balls of steel. Somehow they mananged CQB, house clearing, distance shooting, running, jumping, swimming, urban brawling, you name it, with a big ass, heavy amd long rifle. Hard not to be impressed with the soldiers of that generation. Tough as nails, the men of that day...


And they died by their tens of thousands.

If they had more advanced tools, like a despised lightweight M-16 with red dot optics, they would have faught much better.

The M-1 Garand was an excellent weapon for its time, especially used against an enemy armed with bolt-action rifles, but by 1943 it was obsolete. The MP-43 had been produced, and the men who designed it understood the actual needs of modern combat.

I mean, come on, the M-1 didn't even have a deatachable magazine. Why? Those idiot enlisted men would loose them of course. And they would waste too much ammo of course. And the couldn't do "Shoulder Arms" with it of course.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:19:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Those old timers really had balls of steel. Somehow they mananged CQB, house clearing, distance shooting, running, jumping, swimming, urban brawling, you name it, with a big ass, heavy amd long rifle. Hard not to be impressed with the soldiers of that generation. Tough as nails, the men of that day...


And they died by their tens of thousands.

If they had more advanced tools, like a despised lightweight M-16 with red dot optics, they would have faught much better.

The M-1 Garand was an excellent weapon for its time, especially used against an enemy armed with bolt-action rifles, but by 1943 it was obsolete. The MP-43 had been produced, and the men who designed it understood the actual needs of modern combat.

I mean, come on, the M-1 didn't even have a deatachable magazine. Why? Those idiot enlisted men would loose them of course. And they would waste too much ammo of course. And the couldn't do "Shoulder Arms" with it of course.




True enough.

The Garand was designed for fighting another WW I, and was influenced by the dead hand of professional officers who kept insisting on obsolete features.

The Garand could have---should have---been designed to use the magazine from the BAR. But instead the traditionalists and National Match fetishists insisted on something more conservative and rifle range friendly.

That's hardly just a problem of the past. The 'A2 stock and rear sight are products of the same atavism. The M855 round was designed to give meaningless hard-target penetration at unrealistic distances over soft-tissue performance at real-world combat ranges. The M882 9mm ball round was adopted even though the same design had been performingly poorly since 1902 for other nations' militaries.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:56:38 PM EST
20" Colt A2 with a carry handle mount and a simple 3x9. Some USGI mags and plenty of M193. Back it up with a good M1911 and we're all set. Nothing fancy, just the basics. Of course my Rem 700 in .300RUM will have to handle longer range stuff.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:25:14 PM EST
The Garand comments are all very interesting, and I love mine, but on an AR15 board, in an AR15 section, with an AR15 specific topic, I don't see the point...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:01:29 PM EST
I doubt if I'll ever have an "ideal" rifle, but... My current project is going to be more than adequate:

LMT flattop upper w/ M4 feedramps
LMT M16 Bolt/Carrier
SAW Extractor Spring Upgrade
Giffman Group Buy 16" 4150 Chromelined 1/7 midlength barrel w/ M4 Ramps
Modified Vortex Flash Suppressor
PRI low-profile gasblock
LaRue 12.0 FF Handguard

Troy Front Battle Sight
Troy Rear Battle Sight (A1 Model)
Aimpoint Comp M2 in LaRue M68 mount
Aimpoint 3X Magnifier (when they become available)
Surefire M961C
3 cut down Tangodown panels
Magpul Ladders on all other rails
Tangodown Vertical BattleGrip
AAC M4-2000 Sound Suppressor

Possibly a TA11 ACOG in a LaRue mount when they become more readily available.

LMT Avenger Post 86 Lower Reciever
KAC Match M16 Trigger
KNS Anti-rotation pins
Norgon AmbiCatch
TangoDown BattleGrip
Magpul Triggerguard
DPMS M16 "Chopped" Ambi Selector
VLTOR Clubfoot Carbine MODSTOCK
VLTOR 5 position buffer tube
Colt Buffer Spring
Colt "3" Buffer (may be replaced with "A" buffer pending reliability testing)

USGI 30 round mags (10)
ISMI Chrome Silicon springs
Magpul Antitilt followers
Magpul Rangerplates

Ammo would be Hornady 75 grain TAP (SAAMI load, but the NATO loading is preferred). If operating in a more urban environment, I would choose the 62 grain Federal TRU, due to the better penetration through automobile glass.

This is what I'm working on, but I don't feel that a regular Colt R0920/21 or LMT CQBR w/ a RAS, CCO, vert grip, SF light, and fixed BUIS would be inadequate. Hell, I could make do with my .444 Marlin levergun if I had to.

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:37:36 PM EST
BUSHMASTER a3 w/ detachable carry handle
federals xm-193 55 gr. fmj, 1000 rnd
10+ USGI 30rnders, labelle or ok
16 in hvy bbl w/ phantom fh
semi
trijicon 4x or an aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:10:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 9:14:07 AM EST by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By StormSurge:

Those old timers really had balls of steel. Somehow they mananged CQB, house clearing, distance shooting, running, jumping, swimming, urban brawling, you name it, with a big ass, heavy amd long rifle. Hard not to be impressed with the soldiers of that generation. Tough as nails, the men of that day...


And they died by their tens of thousands.

If they had more advanced tools, like a despised lightweight M-16 with red dot optics, they would have faught much better

The M-1 Garand was an excellent weapon for its time, especially used against an enemy armed with bolt-action rifles, but by 1943 it was obsolete. The MP-43 had been produced, and the men who designed it understood the actual needs of modern combat.

I mean, come on, the M-1 didn't even have a deatachable magazine. Why? Those idiot enlisted men would loose them of course. And they would waste too much ammo of course. And the couldn't do "Shoulder Arms" with it of course.



We took heavy losses in WWII but it had nothing to do with the Garand. The Germans were the last Army we've fought that actually had their shit together. They were extraordinary soldiers that were proficient at fighting. Since then we've mowing down people in grass and mud huts which isn’t a challenge to our fighting units so of course the kill ratios, hence losses, are in our favor.

The en-bloc clips were far easier to manufacture at the time, which is a concern when you have over 2 million men in the field fighting Japanese and German troops all over the planet. The magazine system used by competing rifles wasn’t as reliable in conditions that wouldn’t affect the Garand either. We learned the benefits of reliability in Vietnam very well, where despite two rifles that had detachable magazines we still lost 50,000 men give or take...

The Garand was adopted in 1936, quite some time before WWII, but it was the first semi auto rifle that was standard in any nation. The MP-44 was the first assault rifle but it didn’t arrive till 1943 which was too late to make a difference. FWIW, the Garand is credited with being of those developments that tilted victory in our favor and the most significant rifle in the 20th century...

It's true that "if they had more advanced tools, like a despised lightweight M-16 with red dot optics, they would have fought much better", but it would also mean someone had a time machine so we'd have much bigger things to worry about..

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 10:39:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By AGC:


I don't have any illusions or fantasies about taking out an al Qaeda terrorist team, but in the extremely unlikely event I'm there when something happens I may have the chance to disrupt and delay their plans long enough for some civilians to escape and some responders to arrive. Hey, if I survive that I should never have to pay for a beer again, right? And if not, it beats 25 years parked in the rest home waiting for the minimum-wage flunk to change my Depends...




+1
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